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Thread: ilda software ishow 3 awefull any other software?

  1. #11
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    I haven't been called a partisan hack before. Thanks for that, Bill.

  2. #12
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    @bill well i certainly seem to have rattled your cage! as to your criticisms i would point you to your own surport staff. we have logged surport requests on these topics id number #851477 here is the text of our corespondance with you. as to attending courses etc well if you want to pay the airfare from FIJI then ok im up for it.
    /*********************8/
    an e5200 is pretty much the same performance , less in some
    areas as the high end atoms we use.
    initial load of the workspace is no prob as after that memory
    is freed , or should be!.

    whats the deal with this forced up 'upgrade' business im
    getting messages that i need to upgrade to the latest version
    , last time this happened we had all sorts of problems.
    ive downloaded latest version (3.0) and installed on one of
    the i5's it takes more than 150Mb extra when running and
    doesnt actually work! crashed each time ive used it so far
    and i cant get into some parts of the midi config which is
    vital for us.
    please we brought a license for beyond v2 it worked fine we
    where happy ! then forced to upgrade to 2.1 lots of trouble
    there. now forced again to change to v3.0. we DONT WANT OR
    NEED latest version just let us use the old one that worked
    ok!.
    only reason we use beyond is becasue it has better midi
    customisation than quickshow or if we are doing some logo's
    and im sure there are better options out there for that!



    > -- do not edit below this line --

    > Dear client,
    >
    > A Pangolin support staff member has replied to your support
    > request, #851477 with the following response:

    > Hey Phil,

    > The best I got on my CPU is that it is an E5200 @ 2.5GHz.

    > RAM actually does make a difference when you get below 2GB,
    > especially when opening and closing both programs because of the way
    > the workspace and show files get compressed. That shouldn't impact
    > anything like you are seeing but it is something to be aware of. It
    > can cause files to get corrupted.

    > I strongly feel this has nothing to do with the way our hardware
    > and software are interacting; it it were, we would be having many
    > more reports of similar issues from users are are using many, many
    > more FB3s at one time. I suspect you are having a hardware issue if
    > you are in such a harsh environment and have seen mold on computer
    > parts. Any USB problem, say USB power/current related, could cause
    > problems with the FB3; or even moisture getting in the FB3s. Over
    > time, say a couple of years, either of these issues could cause the
    > FB3s to fail. That may also be why you are going though USB cables
    > like you are. I apologize, but at this point sending them in, one at
    > a time or both at once, is the only path I can suggest to get this resolved.


    > We hope this response has sufficiently answered your questions. If
    > not, please do not send another email.
    > Instead, reply to this email or login to your account for a
    > complete archive of all your support requests and responses.

    > https://support.pangolin.com/view.ph...Mp1VRt5Q%3D%3D

    > Thank you.



    > Have a great day!

    > Best Regards,

    > Aaron McDonald Technical Support Manager
    > Pangolin Laser Systems
    > Phone: (407) 299-2088
    > Support Line: (321) 200-9002 Fax: (407) 299-6066
    > Web: www.pangolin.com
    > Email: aaron@pangolin.com
    /*********************************/
    AT no time where we made aware of an option to obtain "a file that will enable the Software to operate perpetually without updates." despite actually asking if something like that was possible!
    AS to hiding behind an id , we are registered in the company name , you have a problem with that !, software wise i am a software developer have been for 30+ years wanna see my CV?. Penis envy !? Please grow up.
    we would love to have a file to enalbe us to use beyond 2 or 2.1 as they are the best versions for us please have your surport service contact us, they have the email address and details.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
    What I will say is that everyone here on PL has experience with Pangolin.
    Not true, although I'm just a hobbyist. Although I am tempted because LSX sucks for doing DJ/live shows, I need to build my new projector first, then see how many pennies I have left. :P

    What I will say is I wonder how much of an issue piracy really is in this industry. I have never seen anyone else except william talking about it and the fact that you need hardware (which has to be bought) to actually do anything seems to make piracy redundant, unless someone is also cloning the hardware (and that would be very easy to track down and "sort out" so to speak).

    I hope your software time-based solution isn't affected by changing the system clock, by the way. That would be silly if so. :P

  4. #14
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    been a week no reply from pangolin regarding file to allow us to continue to use old version. normally they are pretty quick, ill have to send another email!

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijilasers View Post
    quickshow yes is ok, beyond dont go there!! we did big mistake. it offers nothing over quickshow for the average perfomance, maybe higher galvo speeds
    but do you really need more than 30k for beam shows ?? it has better midi controls thats the ONLY reason we still use it!! with an APC40 . and im writing software to get round that, otherwise its a memory hog crashes regularly AND stops working as it has MANDATORY FORCED upgrades which they dont tell you about when you buy it!! . maybe you like the idea of something you have paid well over the odds for suddenly not working and you having to download a new version , I dont especially when we dont havegreat internet access or even worse when it forces an update when you are starting a show!!!! its mine i paid for it leave it alone!!!!!!!. the new versions also may require a hardware upgrade so more exspense. As i say i cannot recommend Beyond to anyone stay well away, quickshow is good if it had better midi support it would be excellent.
    Some points:

    1. Beyond is not a memory hog. It uses a fair amount of memory but then again it's a low amount compared to the size of the programme. It's certainly not excessive. The issue is clearly with the laptop you are trying to run it on. Don't expect a Ferrari to run like a Ferrari if you have a Fiesta engine powering it!

    You clearly blame the software when you're trying to run the latest state of the art software on an archaic out of date 9 year old Pentium Based Processor, which apart from it's age has probably suffered significant performance degradation over 9 years of usage, a similarly old motherboard and chipsets, assuming it's not upgraded, a 9yr old graphics chip which probably was low end anyway, and virtually no RAM, plus you admit your laptop is so decrepit it has mould growing within it!!!!!

    The specs of Beyond clearly state that a dual core processor (with all the suitable examples clearly being modern dual core examples) and 2GB of RAM are the absolute minimum for Beyond Essentials: https://pangolin.com/shop/lasershow-...e-requirements

    There is a stratospheric difference in performance between the old Pentium architecture and Core 2 Duo. Similarly between the chipsets on the motherboards using it, the likely graphics chipsets from 9 years ago and even the RAM speed. Essentials is the smallest and lowest form of Beyond and it's quite clear that 2GB of modern memory is at the lower edge of usable, yet it's Pangolin's fault your PC won't run their software! You then talk about it being on a par with your other laptops running "high end Intel Atoms", which are actually ultra low performance processors reserved for ultra cheap low end laptops!

    Even the Wiki clearly says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...icroprocessors

    The Intel Atom is Intel's line of low-power, low-cost and low-performance x86 and x86-64 microprocessors.
    So even your best laptops are running low end, ultra low performance processors based on slow archaic architecture with slow supporting chipsets, and yet the fault is the software....

    By comparison, I'm running a Dell Laptop with a Modern Core 2 Duo Processor, 6GB of RAM, a decent graphics card and a retrofitted SSD (my laptop was actually bought 2012 so fairly old now @ 7 years), and I suffer non of the issues you are describing.


    2. I've had Beyond in almost all of it's various disguises, both public release and beta, on my pc ever since it was released circa 4 (?) years ago? Apart from beta versions, (which shouldn't be used for show use anyway - which is why they are beta are not releases), I've never had it crash or hang. Like any software, I'm sure someone will have had, but it's very rare with released versions. Nor have I ever had any performance issues. Again for your frequent problems, I point you to the archaic low performance laptops you're using..

    3. Regarding forced upgrades, forced upgrades occur very rarely, usually more than a year apart and only ever due to fundamental changes in hardware eg the introduction of the Fb4, or a previously unforeseen radical change to the architecture of the program to enable new features. Other than that, there are literally builds released every few weeks and you're not forced to upgrade, in fact unless you are a part of the beta program, you probably never even know they exist. Since release, Beyond has gone from version 1 to the latest Beta which is 1001. That's over 1,000 releases and yet the number of forced upgrades I remember is 3, or 1 every 300+ builds if you prefer it in those terms.

    4. With regards to features, Beyond is the most feature rich piece of software on the market. What you choose to do with that is up to you. If your gigs consist simply of live playback using the provided cues, then yes you're probably not going to get anything more from Beyond than you would from QuickShow. Beyond was designed for advanced users who use advanced features such as the timelines (superior timing), custom due design, advanced effects, scripting, the Universe, and many other features not found in QuickShow. QuickShow is your weekend small DJ software who wants to achieve simple off the shelf effects with a minimum of effort, Beyond is for creative professionals who use multiple lasers, want advanced effects, advanced show programming and advanced custom design and control.
    Last edited by White-Light; 10-12-2017 at 12:46.

  6. #16
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    a more thought out reply from white-light , but unfortunately wrong in quite a few areas.
    1: beyonds not exactly cutting edge its been around a good while (not necessarily a bad thing), look at the spec of pc's when it came out and compare them to modern Atoms, which are as you say the low end of the range still they are more powerfull that cpus from those days. It would be extremely odd for the code to have major structural changes , say from straight 'c' to c# or .net , possible but probably to much work. although newer 'addon' modules may well be where the problem is.
    2:You obviosly assume we only use 'archaic' atoms we dont , and as i said in the post , to quote Bill 'you only have to read it', i5 2.4 ghz 8Gb ram enough for you? are you confusing my statements with pangolin surport? who's staff quotes using a positively geriatric E5200 @ 2.5GHz. just compare the performance, plenty of sites out there will give you benchmark and real world results.
    3:my point was that the 'forced upgrade' uses 150Mb more when running than the older version and is unecessary from our point of view , we just wont use the extra functionality. why should we be made to have it! fine it doesnt happen often , but once is to many times . if your car manufacture forced you to change you car to a new model by stopping the engine in the old one and when you start the new engine up you find it uses more fuel and runs slower and occasionally just stops , would you put up with it despite the fact it was nice and shiny and a pretty new color? I dont say our machines are so old they have mould , i say i have seen mould growing on circuits here, all our equipment is kept in sealed plastic inside flight cases for precisely that reason! again see bills favorite phrase :-).
    4:debatable as to which is best software on the market its down to what you want to use it for and personal preferance. its why we have competition. if someone doesnt like comments about their product ok, but things only improve if you listen to criticism. Our requirement here is very different probably from yours our customers normally have low budgets , the whole country only has a pop of 800k. doesnt mean we dont like to do 'professional' shows , although whats professional? one of the first Shows i helped on was 'Time' in london had been using lasers for a few years before that., i consider stuff we do here to be as professional. Art is Art it doesnt have to cost the earth to qualify.

    any way enough this is moving away from the original reply which was just some comments on our experiences to newbie looking for some advise. pangolin have sent use a file to allow us to use the older version of beyond permanently , thank you Aaron@pangolin, i havent got it working yet been on the road to the islands doing shows.
    hopefully that will fix our particular issues software wise at least. Still got the problem of FB3's not being recognised reliably which is possibly a hardware cable issue still investigating.
    Last edited by Fijilasers; 10-13-2017 at 17:55.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijilasers View Post
    a more thought out reply from white-light , but unfortunately wrong in quite a few areas.
    I think you have misunderstood a few aspects of Beyond's history:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fijilasers View Post
    1: beyonds not exactly cutting edge its been around a good while (not necessarily a bad thing),
    a) Beyond was launched in July 2011. That probably makes it the latest total ground up build of any of the major laser programs (I concede here that LSX might be slightly later, however, although capable, I don't think anyone would classify LSX as being as comprehensive in feature set as Beyond).

    b) It's been constantly enhanced with new features and updates since launch - sometimes daily, certainly often weekly and occasionally every few weeks depending on the frequency of bugs / addition of features. As I said above it's gone from build 1.0 to build 1001 since then. When Beyond was launched, it was pretty much nothing more than a dark version of QuickShow. Now thanks to a rapid series of early updates, and almost constant feature additions ever since, there is no other software on the market I know of that is as feature comprehensive as Beyond, nor is there any other software on the market with as many cutting edge features as Beyond one prime example The Universe, nor is there likely to be, as many of the cutting edge features are patented. In fact if anything, it's too comprehensive. However, you only need use what you want or require.

    I believe that was also one of your complaints. You said it offered nothing more to you than QuickShow. The reply would be it offers many tens if not hundreds more features plus an increased timing accuracy within many of them over QuickShow. The real answer is it depends on what you use it for. If you're doing weekend DJ's gigs, with almost exclusively live playback of the supplied cues only, then for sure, you probably aren't going to use anything more than you would in QuickShow. However if you do major events, or complex multi-laser displays, want to create your cues, do pre-programmed shows where timing matters, run scripts for remote or time delayed control, or want to create the latest cutting edge effects or cues or 3D graphics, that can't be found or made in QuickShow, then Beyond has no rival and that list isn't even scratching the surface of what it's capable of. Whether or not it's the best program, and especially specifically for your needs, is always going to be a personal opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fijilasers View Post
    look at the spec of pc's when it came out and compare them to modern Atoms, which are as you say the low end of the range still they are more powerfull that cpus from those days. It would be extremely odd for the code to have major structural changes , say from straight 'c' to c# or .net , possible but probably to much work. although newer 'addon' modules may well be where the problem is.
    There have been some structural changes to accommodate the new hardware options and new features that weren't available when Beyond was launched. The FB4 has several features not found in the FB3, and these are hardware based. As I mentioned above, Beyond when it was launched was little more than a dark QuickShow, now it is a massive program running (as I understand it) to over a million lines of code.

    Also, when you talk of your Laptop's this is the chronology I understand from above:

    1. You were running Beyond on a 9 year old low end laptop with barely 2GB of RAM. Such a laptop after 9 years of use is probably significantly worn and slowed (it's a well known that lower end processors don't age as well high end units).

    2. You had some issues running Beyond on the said laptop, so you chose to install it on one of your (up-to-date) modern Atoms with 8GB (which yes is as one of the latest ones, comparable to an older processor and should run it and has plenty of memory). However, note it is still a poor performer compared to an i7 for instance.

    3. Beyond crashed on the Atom after it was compulsory updated to version 3.0 (I do seem to vaguely remember an initial problem around the time of 3.0 which was fixed quickly).

    4. So far as I can tell from what you have said, you never pursued the issue of the crash with 3.0 on the Atom by looking for an updated version or contacting support but instead chose to revert to struggling with the old worn out laptop before finally contacting Pangolin to say the program is unusable, something no-one else in the thousands of users worldwide seem to have found.

    5. The latter clearly suggesting the issue is at your end:

    i. In the old laptop which probably past it's best and not up to the job being on the lower edge of the spec when 1st bought and almost certainly running a slower level than that now after 9 years of use, and

    ii. In the modern Atom, which clearly although still at the lower end for CPU, should run Beyond but is suffering crashes. The latter seems to point to you either not having an updated to a stable build of Beyond after the issue with the 3.0 update, or having an issue with your Windows or Driver installation and this affecting Beyond.

    As someone running Windows 10 Creators Update (an enforced MS update that broke Beyond and many other programs initially), I can report that Pangolin had Beyond fixed with hours and that Beyond is both usable and stable on my pc and laptop. It was exactly the same before the Creators update. I have never known a genuine bug reported to Pangolin not to be fixed within 24 hours, such is the responsiveness of Pangolin support.

    If I may suggest a way forward here, rather than criticising Pangolin on the forum by publishing private messages or emails, with an issue that appears to be squarely at your end, try re-engaging with Pangolin support starting with supplying them details of your current Windows Version, whether it's been kept up-to-date and your current version of Beyond. I'm quite sure the instability issues you're having on your Atom PC's can be solved quickly from there. As to your older laptop, I rather believe the issue is simply a combination of spec and age related wear.
    Last edited by White-Light; 10-14-2017 at 19:56.

  8. #18
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    Well written response, WhiteLight. To answer your point regarding, LSX, that interface (LSX’s) is older as it is built on an older codebase dating back to the mid 90s, I believe.

    David
    "Help, help, I'm being repressed!"

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkumpula View Post
    Well written response, WhiteLight. To answer your point regarding, LSX, that interface (LSXs) is older as it is built on an older codebase dating back to the mid 90s, I believe.

    David
    yes.. but there have been some pretty profound upgrades and additions under the hood.
    suppose you're thinkin' about a plate o' shrimp. Suddenly someone'll say, like, plate, or shrimp, or plate o' shrimp out of the blue, no explanation. No point in lookin' for one, either. It's all part of a cosmic unconciousness.

  10. #20
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    @whitelight. you still havent read my original post or you are misunderstanding. We have never installed on an ancient machine and upgraded to atoms . please look at the post . the old machine is what pangolin suport use!. i agree beyond has been upgraded and has a lot of very complicated and impressive functionality. my basic gripe is that , why should i be forced to upgrade to a new version with all this extra baggage on board when i dont need it!. we started with beyond 1.8 it was perfect for our requirements then we had to upgrade to 2 which caused all sorts of problems mainly as we have various machines at different sites., which needed to be syncd up ( internet is dubious sometimes here and you dont want to upgrade something just before a show , we transport the fb3's around according to requirements ). then again same forced upgrade to 3 which uses more ram and processor ( beyond 1.8 and 2 by the way run fine on an atom we use them at remote sites where we have to run for hrs on batteries!.) causing more problems on SOME machines. its the new functionality which we dont need which is the problem. we didnt ask for it we dont use it so why should we be forced to have it? . it appears to be common thing in the software industry lately that the vendor knows best and the customer gets no option, surely if you have brought something and where happy with it as purchased then the suppler should allow you to use it as is, not force unwanted changes which destroy its usefullness. why should i be forced to buy new hardware because the software has decided to force me to upgrade to the latest version which i dont want because the old one works fine! FORCE being the important point all they have to do is allow a choice.

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