Help doing calculations

[mixedgas]

Oh, and since your in Canada... There is almost nothing in the air left to scatter light in winter. Having zero humidity with snow on the ground generally means almost no airborne dust, and just a little Raman scattering off oxygen molecules. Thus in winter, unless its snowing, you need a fogger or massive hazer. (often more then one, and bring a small fan to distribute the smoke) Ask me some time how one of my best planned large throw shows (450 foot throw to 150 foot wide, windowless, building) switched from only beams to only graphics with a 10' temperature drop. Was a painful lesson, as in Ohio in the summer there is almost always some farm dust and erosive dust in the air. (Which often comes from as far away as Saharan Africa, I'm told) ~
Lasers in snow look great, but are really best from the projector side of the control booth or scaffold. Snow does not always forward scatter well, and big fluffy flakes can some times block the laser light totally as they pass.
I Concur on the 532 nm green. Its just I hate green only projectors, so I'd have never thought to mention it.
~
If your using a low cost genset, consider having a true sinewave UPS between the generator and the equipment. One that is always true sine wave, not one that switches over just when the power sags. Also the words "four to six foot copper ground stake with bonding wire, comes to mind. " Make your own power extension cords with regular outlets and whatever the Canadian version of a four Inch Welded box with dual ganged outlets is. Three wire cords with green wire ground are mandatory.

~
Thus if its snowing, you may want to project away from, not toward your audience.... (Oh, and don't buy into the cloud scanning dream, only works well in very rare conditions, and again, you usually can only see it from the back side of the projector)
~
I just had a deep seated bad memory of a consulting trip where little thought was given (by the client) to waterproofing a projector up on a very tall, very windy, roof. When things got hot/ humid/wet/cold by virtue of
being a few miles from the ocean... It was a dry, hot, day at ground level, but not 24 stores up. Hint, little pointed roofs that extend far past the projector sides to drip where a drip is tolerable, is probably far better then any idea involving a cut down plastic storage box or plastic sheeting. Also touchpads on laptops rarely cope with humidity/wetness/melting snow very well, bring a Mouse or two with micepads and a keyboard or two. The Preacher may like the cold, but batteries don't, and you will soon be California dreamin if you don't have a practice run in actual conditions. Wind is a good thing at a few KPH, but generally bad at any other speed.
~
Steve

[darkrider]

Holy crap! You're going to have four towers, each with a 270 watt LED fixture at the base? That's a *SHITLOAD* of light! And if you cover the tower with anything (cloth), it will only be worse.

Even pointed straight up, that light is going to catch the fog coming out of the fog machines mounted at the tops of the towers. And that means the light will be scattered in all directions, lighting up the whole area and competing with the lasers for apparent brightness. Not good.

Based on your budget, I can tell you right now that this is not going to look bright enough for you with a 1 or 2 watt RGB projector. If the budget is firm and non-negotiable, then my advice is to forget about RGB and focus exclusively on green. It's the color that our eyes are most sensitive to, so it will show up brighter than any other color. Also, DPSS green has gotten a lot cheaper recently because everyone is flocking to the direct-diode greens. 532 nm green is the brightest line we've got in our toolbox, so you can get away with less of it and still have decent beams.

If you can score a pair of 1.5 to 2 watt green-only laser projectors (at 532 nm), you've got a shot at pulling this off. It's still going to need to be very still (to keep the fog in place) and those LED lights may yet prove to be your downfall, but it's at least theoretically feasible at this power level. Also, forget about sheets and fans and focus on fewer beams that will appear brighter because the power won't be spread out all over the sky.

For the future though, I completely agree with Steve: this is a show that would normally be done with much more power. One other option might be to RENT the equipment you need. If it's only for a short duration (say, up to a week), then for the budget you quoted you could rent some really nice stuff this year and probably make it work even in full color.

Bottom line: outdoor shows are notoriously difficult. The mantra is "go big or go home", and while that sounds like the rallying cry of a crusty old laserist, there is a lot of truth to the statement with regard to outdoor shows. There's just no adequate substitute for power. And even with really nice gear, sometimes you still get skunked. (I partnered with a major laser show company last year to put three 20-watt Kvant laser projectors outside for a 4th of July show, and it still looked lame because the 20 mph wind that night meant that we couldn't keep the scattering medium in place.)

Adam

Adam,
Thanks for the write up, yes 270 watt units, york 4 post LED-4 I think they are called (I Used 2 posts last year, I think ill go back to them, instead of the 4 post ones), the towers are covered in white cloth, we are sewing them as we speak. All controlled via DMX, so perhaps I can dial down the brightness when the lasers are running, or come up with a comfortable compromise.

If you have any suggestions on a green only unit please let me know.
I am going to apply for the second half of the grant as well.

As far as rentals go, I am renting all my gear, the fogs, the lights etc. The budget does not allow for purchase of anything, I am working on it! If I can get my steel cheaper here then it will help. With that said, my local Long and McQuade wont rent any DJ gear like lasers over 600 CDN, at least so far. I asked them to bring me in some kavant lasers and they wont. Apparently they cant rent them for enough money to get their cash back.....I love Kvant stuff. I have been drooling over the club max 3000.
If they weren't so dam expensive, but they are good lasers for sure.

52°44'09.0"N 113°46'20.3"W
This is where my project will be. With that said, its down in a valley, if you go say 2 thumb widths to the north, it starts to go up, there is a 300 foot rise in elevation roughly. If you go south, its about 6-8 thumbs then rises, however what happens here is the fog rolls in, usually around 11pm. Last year I had some fire at the top of my bowls, where the fog would hit. the fog would spread out very wide and not go anywhere. As long as there is little wind it sits very nice here.

We were in fact shooting light 1000 feet in all directions, people were running over and thought we were on fire. (I had an open burn permit from the county to burn whenever I wanted, but fire is a lot of work and methanol is dangerous, we do have a plan to do it again in 2018 cause who does not like fire eh?)

Regards,
Wally

[darkrider]

Oh just a heads up guys the display is June 20-27th. Every night from 11pm - 3am

[darkrider]

Steve,

We are looking at renting 2x honda 7000 units, most likely the E7000I series, it will be a month or two before we work on that side of things. I agree a true wave UPS is a good idea, not sure I have any around though. We have some switching APC 1500 units that we like to use, so far they have been good to us.

We have a 8x10 temporary shed that we are using for all electrical and show gear, on a table inside. My next door neighbor is building the power distribution stuff, where we can have 2 inputs with breakers and power filters before the unit, I will talk to him about a sinewave UPS.

We are building a top that we can zip or close quickly if it rains at the top of the tower. I will post a few images so you guys have an idea what we are doing.
Being an armature and working through the bugs has been the best part so far.

Regards,
Wally

[darkrider]

I just want to say to both of you, that I truly appreciate your knowledge, insight and help guiding me.

Currently I am looking at trying to budget in 1000 CDN ish to do a purchase. Would be nice to have 4 units. If you have any 532nm only recommendations that would be sweet.

[darkrider]

Attachment 51754

Attachment 51755

Attachment 51756

This is version one of the tower on site, wrapped in saran wrap. We did not like this, it left all the equipment exposed to the users, so they knew how it was done, instead of it being magical.

As for the light, this is a YORK LP-LED-2 unit in the base of each tower mounted to a plywood structure.

[darkrider]

This is version two of the tower, we clothed the bottom and saran wrap the top, we have decided it looks way better with cloth, so we are currently sewing a nice wrap.

The goedesic dome in the background is also mine, built from scratch by hand.

As for the light in this unit, its a York LP-LED-4

This display was down town Calgary, like Right down town, in a parking lot. I expected much more ambient light, so kicked it up with the additional lights.

With that said, I think in the complete dark, like version 1, the York LP-2-LED is more than enough.

[darkrider]

We are currently working on version three, a full wrap. The towers are also 12 feet instead of 11 feet. Constructed from 1 inch EMT.
Here is the prototype. Attachment 51759
It's strong enough to hold my 240 pounds with no issues, there are other plans and designs in the works for future builds that will have people on them.
Learning as I go.

[buffo]

yes 270 watt units, york 4 post LED-4 I think they are called (I Used 2 posts last year, I think ill go back to them, instead of the 4 post ones), the towers are covered in white cloth, we are sewing them as we speak. All controlled via DMX, so perhaps I can dial down the brightness when the lasers are running, or come up with a comfortable compromise.

Hi Wally;

Wow - that is a lot of illumination. Covering them with white cloth is just about the worst case scenario too - they'll light up like glow-totems, only much brighter, and spread that light in all directions.

If you can dial the intensity back via DMX when the lasers are running, that might help some. But if part of the display is the "wow" factor of those very bright white towers, then this may not be an option. Agree that only having 2 (vs 4) will help.

Either way though, it's going to make it harder to see the lasers.

If you have any suggestions on a green only unit please let me know.

Suggest you contact Richard Gonsalves in Toronto and see what he can do for you. At the very least, if he can't rent you anything he won't steer you wrong. Long-time ILDA member and all-around good guy! (pugnews@rogers.com, or user id: A.R.Gon here on PhotonLexicon) Then too, you may want to get in touch with Jonathan Rhem (johnathanrhem@gmail.com, or user ID: platinum here on PhotonLexicon), as he is somewhat closer to you.

I am renting all my gear, the fogs, the lights etc. The budget does not allow for purchase of anything, I am working on it! If I can get my steel cheaper here then it will help. With that said, my local Long and McQuade wont rent any DJ gear like lasers over 600 CDN, at least so far.

You probably need to contact a dedicated laser light show company directly. Better yet, contact Richard above and see what he says. And if he can't help you out, call whomever he suggests.

52°44'09.0"N 113°46'20.3"W
This is where my project will be. With that said, its down in a valley

A valley? When I type that location into google maps, I get this:



That looks like an open field to me!

The elevation changes you're talking about appear to be very gradual. If that's the case, it's not going to help contain the fog at all. You need to be contained within a treeline or else surrounded by cliffs if you expect to be able to hold the fog in one area. Otherwise the wind can blow it wherever it wants to.

This is the sort of space you're looking for:



But even in this space, sometimes it was hard to keep the fog in place...

Have you ever operated a fog machine in your location at night before? A few experiments spread out over a couple weeks might tell you a lot...

Adam

[darkrider]

Adam,

Yes that is the right spot, and yes it is gradual. I would say about 2000 feet across, there are no trees close as you can see, and there is another drop of 200+ feet to the creek bed.
The temp gets to 8 deg c there at night, during June and the fog rolls in naturally, with the addition of my fog machines it hangs and hangs and hangs. Now this is not always the case, 90% of the time it happens at night.
Yes it has been tested and run two seasons in June.

I am going to reach out to some of the companies you talked about and see what happens.

Wally