Group Buy Compact 506 Complete Set

i have been tardy with my updated review.. i had to finish up some commissioned work. i'll try to get photos and a real review up this evening.

until then..

working with adam was absolutely a positive experience. 3mm mirrors (so tiny!) on the 506's with x-laser amps display the ilda12k 30kpps / 8 degrees very nicely. the heavy cables between the amp and the galvos has been replaced by ribbon cables (much better!).

even at >8 degrees a lot of content still looks very acceptable.

i have no bad feelings about how things worked out and adam could not have been more pleasant and nice to deal with.

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Originally Posted by Laser Wizardry

than please get on the phone with SpitzSTP ( Brent Sullivan ) and MAKE THIS RIGHT. We were all shocked and horrified that despite everything that was said here, that nobody swapped out his mirrors, or attempted to explain how the fuse on his board blew ( if that was indeed the only problem), and nobody bothered to included any documentation to him to verify if his board was one of the ones that we cannot trust the labeling for the + and - connections or not. Come on, nobody even threw in a single piece of paper to let him what repair was done ( still assuming it was just the fuse) or WHY the repair was needed. If we hook the + lead to where there board says the + lead goes, and so on, and we get the same problem again, what then?

He is so disheartened and crushed over this mess he literally almost threw the entire box in my trash can out front. After everything that was said on this thread, and the mirror swapout you did for Swami, it never occurred to us that you wouldn't automatically do whatever it takes to return Brent's system as capable of doing specs (like you did for Swami).

FIX THIS, and some of my " misplaced venom' as Dan so nicely put it will go away, but as of right now, It's not misplaced at all, and is in fact still being proven and justified-- I've now got 4 things not 3 to vent about next time somebody ask me what I know about X laser.


he is completely crushed and insulted at what has been a horrible process for him just trying to get a scanhead for his projecctor build that Swami and I are assisting in. Anybody wonder why his ever popular star machine thread hasnt been kept updated? It's because this projector build process is sucking the soul out of him with one setback after another, usually involving him being ripped off, something not as advertised, wrong part shipped, etc.

please make this right. I'm the poor bastard that recommended he get these and I've completely fucking regretted it so far. Personally I hope you guys put more effort into safety and compliance issues than you are for customer service......

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Thanks for bringing this to my attention Karl! The notes in our CRM software indicate that the scanner set was returned, repaired and sent back out to Mr. Sullivan so the issue was closed to us, so that is why he's gotten no further contact from us. I just sent him a follow up message to make sure we can help him get his system to a point where he's pleased with it. I do sincerely appreciate you mentioning this, the last thing we want to do is ignore someone that's having issues but unless we hear about it from them there's nothing we can do, so thank you.

Thanks again Karl, I've now been in contact with SpitzSTP and we're getting him all straightened out.

Karl,

Adam is being kind. I will be direct.

Calling us "con artists" is beyond offensive. We are doing everything in our power to be transparent, we have taken responsibility for an error, are acting to fix every issue and have offered a full refund to anyone who wants it. There is nothing more that any company can do, and none of these actions are consistent with being "con artists" or any such nonsense. I cannot let that stand unchallenged.

While you are of course entitled to your opinions, I would suggest that you choose your words more carefully as you move from having your opinion into the realm of libel.

As others have said, we cannot fix a problem we don't know about, and one really only needs to pickup the phone to exercise any one of the several remedies we have offered.

ok for transparency sake

what is the power reading on a power meter after scanners in watts for the x-beam 5000

http://x-laser.us/product/x-beam-5000/

If you follow the link you have posted and click on the specification sheet, you will find the laser energy specification as 2.5J CW which is the actual specification that someone would need for safety calculations, and of course you can easily extrapolate watts if you are so inclined.

My preference would be to try keeping this thread on subject so we can address any further scanner issues directly. If you would like to get another thread going about apparent brightness I would be most happy to discuss it there, though I think there were several pretty good threads on the subject already as I think we have been pretty transparent on that subject as well.

An X-Beam 5000 easily stands up to a 6W Defiant in the first 50m of throw or so which covers about 95% of the indoor applications for which it is specified.

Have a good night!

" 15 characters"

sorry i've been tardy on this. my day job and some other projects got in the way.

i hope this is helpful. i did not mean to stir controversy.

when adam and i spoke about the problems with the 4mm mirrors, we discussed 3mm mirrors as a solution to the scanning problems and based on bill (pangolin's) post, it sounded like the galvos would perform much better with that modification.

throughout this whole experience, adam has been very helpful and communicative. an absolute pleasure to work with and there's no doubt in my mind that the mirror performance issue was simply an oversight.

be aware, the 3mm mirrors are *very* small. you are very likely to have mirror clipping if your projector is using multimode diodes or possibly even knife edged single mode diodes. i did not have a problem with my programming projector as it uses a single set of single mode RGB diodes.

adam shipped out a new set. while i was waiting for them to arrive, he sent me information about the new cables for connecting the galvos to the amps. the cables supplied with the original sets were quite heavy and other users were reporting problems with the connectors staying crimped to the cables. this was a very welcome upgrade. my new galvos came with two sets of ribbon cables. a short set and a much longer one. presumably for double decker style projectors.

sorry for the low quality photo (my fault)

Attachment 48072

i dropped the new scanners in and ran some test patterns through them.

the following test patterns are at 30kpps and 8 degrees. projected with beyond driving an fb3.

Attachment 48076

Attachment 48073

Attachment 48074

Attachment 48075

they're not perfect, but they're clearly significantly better. because test patterns don't tell the whole story, i ran through a number of beyond cues and they looked quite good.

i did a little math and it turns out i typically use a projection angle of 15 degrees when doing show programming with my dt40w's. i reset beyond for 15 degree scanning.

Attachment 48077

the ilda12 pattern looked pretty good except for the inner circle (sorry, i don't have that photo) and the lasermedia test pattern held together very very nicely. in my experience, if the lasermedia test pattern looks good, shows will generally look good.

Attachment 48078

encouraged, i fired up LSX and ran some show content through them. i selected LSX because i'm most familiar with my own content and it will be easier to spot issues.

there are some scanning optimization differences between the dt40w's that were in the projector and the 506's. to be fair, i spent a respectable amount of time tweaking settings to find the balance between best quality and smoothest playback.

as expected, circles and lissajous patterns scanned best, although some scanning optimization was necessary to close shapes and removing scanning flags.

pre-optimization:

Attachment 48079

with proper optimization, i could make the text looks beautiful, but at reduced projection smoothness:

Attachment 48080

here's a video i made of the show the above examples are from.

http://youtu.be/xnhj_-oDIT8

small scanning detail and repeatability is excellent, however larger projections do degrade. it's graceful, but apparent. on the other hand, every set of dt40w's i've ever seen has some ringing that shows up in straight lines. especially when they're rotating. i cannot state strongly enough how nice it is to not see this in images scanned through the 506's.

here's the same show filmed with dt40w's. also at 15 degrees.

http://youtu.be/bOKHPKBNmlM

the dt40w's are much crisper. corners are sharper and shapes are holding together better at this scan angle.

the galvos and amp from x-laser require a very small footprint inside a laser projector and using a single 12v psu further reduces space and wiring complexity. i think they're a good value and will meet the needs of a many users.

however, i don't think they meet my needs.

Some points...

1) While I am a big supporter and champion of Pangolin, had they actually completed this product and sold it with the intended amps back over a year ago, none of this BS with X-Laser, mixedgas and others who have helped to get these in the hands of folks with (my words) bastardized solutions would have occurred. By admission, they dropped the ball one week prior to completion of the amps to focus on the mystery Home Depot laser because it "helps more people" and, quite frankly if an order that large comes in, I fully understand why Bills attention would be redirected. Mine would be too. The scanners themselves are great but, until it's a complete product, my feeling is you're buying these "solutions" at your own risk.

2) I have gotten a lot more backstory into this and fully understand what happened. It may have been posted in the thread but I don't think so and it bears repeating. Without getting too detailed, these amps were created for a special client with very specific needs. And... needs (as has been discovered) that don't necessarily exactly match "ours".

There were amps left over. A well respected member here pushed, rather strongly, the idea to X-Laser to sell them to the hobby market which, without the typical extremely thorough procedures and, "flow through the chart" process most items from X-Laser follow, they were quickly offered up for sale. They were originally spec'd to run the scanners at 12V with very small mirrors, since that was the requirements of the client.

What wasn't realized in the effort to get them into your hands, was just how much of an effect putting the more typical, slightly larger mirrors on, would affect performance on scanners only driven by 12 V. Therein lies the primary oversight, mistake, gaff, whatever...that has been repeatedly apologized for. The lack of documentation / foil / whatever else was supposed to be in the box was also an internal communication oversight. But.... it was also thought that probably the caliber and skill level of hobbyist buying these in the first place was likely smarter than the average consumer and would require less hand holding. And quite frankly, it is. Sadly what wasn't realized was the flaw in performance that couldn't be overcome by putting larger mirrors on an underpowered amp.

Offers of refunding money have been made. Apologies have been made. Attempts to correct the situation have been made. When. they. have. been. brought. to. attention. There may very well be some buyers who are happy with the performance and, have not needed to be so venomous as some. (read:dickwadish)

Edit: Shit.... this posted before I was done. I hate vbulletin sometimes. I'm still typing.... more to come.

3)

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in my personal opinion, perhaps these product sheets are meant to cater to the significantly less educated crowd...

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Sadly....bingo. Yes, they are. A large portion of X-Lasers past clientele is the less educated crowd. Specifically the DJ market, not the laser geek or laser professional market (however, that shift is occurring because, lets face it, after awhile, dealing with weekend warrior stupid DJ's would drive anyone batshit crazy)

Is it deceiving? Perhaps, particularly when you are used to examining different specs. Is it lying or being a con? No. It's clearly stated that it "appears as bright as" but also states that it's 2.5J. While we don't have to LIKE how it's written, there is nothing untruthful. Shit... there are seasoned pros on here that don't know how to relate joules to watts... (spend some time on FB!) so, I guarantee a dj isn't going to know the specs either but, everybody is hung up on power. DJ's, promoters, hobbyists, etc. Large power doesn't necessarily translate to more brightness. But, I'd also prefer that large power NOT be placed in the hands of the weekend warrior DJ so, if you can supply something that's.... as bright as but, uses less power than... then I view that as a good thing, even though I don't like the verbage either.

But what I will say about this is, I have seen.... in a large 60,000 sf arena... this projector in close proximity to a 14w RTI Piko and it's damn near every bit as bright at say 100-150 feet. The Piko naturally carried it's throw much further but, that's to be expected.

Anyway.... off to work.

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Originally Posted by Bradfo69

I have gotten a lot more backstory into this and fully understand what happened. It may have been posted in the thread but I don't think so and it bears repeating. Without getting too detailed, these amps were created for a special client with very specific needs. And... needs (as has been discovered) that don't necessarily exactly match "ours".

There were amps left over. A well respected member here pushed, rather strongly, the idea to X-Laser to sell them to the hobby market which, without the typical extremely thorough procedures and, "flow through the chart" process most items from X-Laser follow, they were quickly offered up for sale.

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Aw fuck...

Guys, I'm the one responsible for what Brad is talking about. I've already admitted it on Facebook, so I may as well post it here as well.

Dan contacted me about these new amps quite a while ago. (It was shortly after the last Florida Laser Enthusiast's Meeting.) For those of you who were there in Florida, you'll no doubt remember Pangolin talking about the fact that the mini-DSP amps for the 506 scanners were "close", but were still not ready. Everyone was really disappointed to hear that. We even badgered them pretty hard to at least have some ready by SELEM.

So when Dan e-mailed me saying that he had an amp that worked with the 506 scanners, and was in stock, and best of all, didn't even require a dual-voltage power supply, I got very excited. I suggested that Dan post here on PL in the group buy thread and offer them up for sale. I knew that lots of people had been waiting to get their hands on some 506 scanners, and the one problem has always been finding amps to go with them.

Evidently I pushed too hard. I knew the demand was high, so I encouraged Dan to move fast. I knew people had projector builds in mind, and I thought if X-laser could get these amps out there soon enough, we might be able to see some cool new projectors at SELEM this year running the 506 scanners.

Unfortunately, that rushing proved to be a very bad idea. In the shuffle, no one recognized that the amps were designed for 506's running with the smaller mirrors. Also, Dan actually commented that the "official" user's manual had not been finished. "Not a problem", I told him, since I figured we were all smart enough to figure things out on our own.

Then too, the task of shipping these things was delegated to someone else at X-laser who was not in the loop regarding Dan's conversations with me. This led to other mistakes. And finally, the fact that these were essentially "left-over" stock from another project that had already ended only added yet more urgency to the matter. (Limited supply, and all that...)

In the end, I shouldn't have been in such a hurry. Adam Raugh actually resisted the whole idea, because he wanted to do more testing. When Dan mentioned that to me, I told him that getting these amps into the hands of other hobbyists NOW would actually be better, since we would absolutely report our results here on PL. In essence, we would be doing the testing for them.

So yeah - I fucked up. I unilaterally volunteered everyone here to be beta testers without disclosing that fact. I assumed that since I had already seen these scanners run (albeit on very different amps), there wouldn't be any performance issues, so I thought the risk was minimal. But I didn't think about how lower voltages would mean lower torque. I also didn't bother to ask what the original design specs were for these amps. (They were for a client who's needs are very different from ours.) I really should have listened to what Adam Raugh suggested. Damn...

You know what they say about "no good deed goes unpunished"? Yeah, that's me. I was honestly trying to help people out by getting these amps into people's hands, and in the end it was a disaster. I'm really sorry for that, and I know X-laser is sorry too. I feel especially bad for guys like Brent Sullivan who were absolutely crushed when these amps didn't perform. I'm tying to work with Karl right now to salvage that situation. In the future, I will try to reign in my enthusiasm to prevent making this mistake again.

Once again - sorry guys. :(

Adam