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Originally Posted by rns0504
I have always found Pangolin demos, reviews, etc to be factual, helpful and informational. Maybe do a side by side comparison in the auditorium at SELEM. Let everybody there watching (certainly a group qualified to judge projectors) provide their comments & feedback. If 30 Helen's agree that a projector does what it says it does, well that would be good enough for me. Plus it is always fun to test/play with new/more projectors!
I can certainly put in a request to bring one to SELEM, just depends on who from our organization is driving vs flying. I'm on the fence right now myself. Flying is so much easier...
I need to jump in here for a moment to point out that SELEM is not an appropriate venue for this sort of thing. SELEM is about laser enthusiast's getting together to share knowledge and have fun. It's not a sales conference, and we have worked hard to ensure it doesn't become one.Quote:
Originally Posted by djeric68
Asking Pangolin to bring a Kvant Clubmax and a Club-Laser projector so they could be compared side-by-side is something that should be done at a trade show - not at SELEM.
Adam
It was a Lightspace vs a Club-Laser actually.
So one not represented by Pangolin.
That strikes me as 'of interest' to laserists, not a sales pitch. It's probably one of the questions most of us has wondered at some point (including GS vs Lightspace, Able vs Lightspace, Kvant vs Lightspace, etc)
Maybe it should be a wider comparison, probably not too many opportunities to get such a range of hardware together in one place as at a LEM.
I don't anyone here is trying to make a sales conference...? It is a bit frustrating though, that something I experience at various events I go to is that I automatically have an agenda because of who I work for. Which is why I end many posts with THE ABOVE OPINIONS ARE MY OWN AND NOT THOSE OF MY EMPLOYER. I have no clue if our cheap chinese laser is any better or any worse than everyone elses cheap chinese laser. I haven't even powered one on, and seen one in operation for a whole cumulative 30 seconds.
Norty is right - one of the most common questions among ENTHUSIASTS is "Which chinese shitbox projector is best"? To my knowledge, no such testing or comparison has been, simply due to the high cost and logistics involved for an enthusiast to be able to do this work.
Where better than arguably the largest enthusiast meeting in the world, to answer this question fairly for enthusiasts across the world? People will bicker GoldenStar vs Able vs Lightspace vs Kolo vs ClubCadet (I'd love to bring my tractor but I'd rather bring a ClubLaser, more appropriate) vs ClubLaser vs AnyOtherCommerciallyDistributedRebrandedChineseShi tbox until they're blue in the face quoting KNOWINGLY exaggerated manufacturers claims. Typically because that's what they bought and they want to feel good about it.
If one person does this test at home they might be considered biased, and if Pangolin of all groups did it, it would DEFINITELY be considered biased. I would imagine this being more "consumer reports" style, where all measurable specs of the projector are measured and compared to the datasheets in a public forum. It would be even better if somehow blind testing could be done, so nobody knows what projector it is until the tests are complete. And of course open for many witnesses to ensure fairness in all testing.
Unless somehow doing a real test of real cheap chinese lasers could be considered damaging to some parties who would object?
Whoops! My bad! Thanks for the correction. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by norty303
I agree that in the abstract, the information learned from such a comparison is of interest to laserists. But in practice I don't think a "projector shootout" is appropriate for SELEM.Quote:
That strikes me as 'of interest' to laserists, not a sales pitch. It's probably one of the questions most of us has wondered at some point (including GS vs Lightspace, Able vs Lightspace, Kvant vs Lightspace, etc)
Maybe it should be a wider comparison, probably not too many opportunities to get such a range of hardware together in one place as at a LEM.
For starters, when the seller is the one bringing the gear for comparison it's almost impossible to avoid the sales pitch. (After all, price is one of the things that will be compared.) Then too, it's highly unlikely that you would get sellers from all the companies you mentioned to attend SELEM in the first place. (Especially if they were expected to bring equipment as well.) So it's easy to see how this could end up being very one-sided. In my mind that's actually worse than no demo at all.
And finally, I'd rather spend time talking with corporate representatives about their history and experiences rather than the features, pricing, and finance options on their latest projector. Some of the best stories I've ever heard at a LEM have come from industry heavyweights sharing their past. (Bill Benner talking about how they chose "Pangolin" as the name of the company, for example, is a story I won't ever forget!)
My concerns about this subject are not mere speculation on my part. We experienced the exact one-sided hard-sell scenario described above at SELEM several years ago with a laser company that is no longer in business here in the USA. At the time I thought I was simply approving a demo of some new technology. Afterwards it was clear that things got out of hand and there was a virtual trade-show booth set up in the cafeteria, complete with multiple units on display and a stack of promotional fliers on the table along with new units boxed up and ready to sell. I got a lot of negative feedback from that. (Sorry guys!)
In fairness, it was all my fault, as I didn't really set any boundaries or ground rules with the vendor beforehand. I simply assumed that everyone at SELEM understood the character of the event and would keep things low-key. Also, the salesperson was very cooperative once the situation was explained, so I can't really blame them either. But as a result, I'm much more cautious about what goes on at SELEM now.
Then too, the cool thing about SELEM is that when you have questions about the hardware you see at the event you can actually talk to the person who owns it and ask them detailed questions about their gear - questions that a salesperson may be unwilling or unable to answer. The owner is unlikely to have any conflicting interests that might cloud his/her judgement when answering your questions.
True, we will probably never have all brands represented at SELEM, but if someone really needs to see all brands running in the same room there are plenty of trade shows to go.
Adam
EDIT: Looks like Ryan was posting at the same time I was, so I'll add this little PS: The company I refer to above was not Pangolin. Ryan, Aaron, Bill, and everyone else at Pangolin always respect the character of SELEM, and people genuinely enjoy the chance to chat them up. That being said, I do feel that there is less conflict of interest when owners post comparisons vs when manufacturers / sellers post comparisons. Ryan, you mentioned it yourself - people always assume you have an agenda even when you don't. I think it's better to let the owners speak up to remove any doubt.
Certainly I'm nowhere near smart enough or knowledgeable enough to perform these tests and would rather leave it to the experts. However as a compromise, if people are interested I would be happy to bring up a unit for people to tinker/play with / examine, etc. With no expectation of sales, just for enthusiasts to familiarize themselves and perhaps do any independent testing they want, and draw their own conclusions?
I could of course not bring one, don't want to step on any toes or come off wrong. At the end of the day it is another 'Retail level chinese laser" which I would assume is on par with everything else in that class.
Adam, I wasn't really suggesting a 'demo' from anyone, or indeed any manufacturer involvement really.
I was suggesting that the SELEM attendees themselves do the shootout, using the projectors they brought along.
If Ryan can bring a Club-Laser and put it with the testing group then that's as much involvement as he needs to have (I'm sure he'd prefer it that way anyway)
The place where shootouts fall down is in the after evaluation (having been there with PA system shootouts)
The scientific guys will rubbish the test processes as not being clever/definitive enough
The defensive manufacturers will rubbish the ears of everyone present (in the PA world) and the skill of the person driving the system.
But if kept simple and light hearted, lining up a load of projectors with the lids off, playing some common frames through the projectors onto a wall, and letting people observe build quality, what components are inside and what the frames look like, it might 'just' be what some people need to determine where they put their money.
Um, The science guys and one of the manufacturers are hopefully jointly bringing a Spiricon CCD based M2 beam quality measuring system this year that should be open to anybody if we can attenuate the beam enough to protect the CCD. . Its the one with the automated sliding optical rail for measuring divergence and M Squared quality factor.
~
I had a single axis "BeamScan" there last year that was open to anyone provided we could attenuate the beam enough to scan it. It got used a little.
I'll bring it again, but with a real Xy and Spin mount this time and multiple ND high power filters I just bought.
~
That takes the "gripe" from the science guys to the artists who will hopefully dig in to learning what the data means.
~
But measuring diode stacks is a bit on the poorly defined side still. The international standard is a work in progress, so I'm told. Trust me, watching the stacked beam profile change massively with diode modulation on multiple diode setups is very interesting.
Steve
After discussing the idea with a few people I agree that it's worthwhile to have a Club Laser projector available for people to play with and/or open the lid to see the build quality inside. I only ask that this be a low-key affair, in keeping with the spirit of the event.
I think the best place for this is in the cafeteria. We can have it set up on a table and folks can plug their controller into it to see how it performs running their content. Probably best to do this on an ad-hoc basis though. I'll set up an area for this during load-in, and when Ryan arrives we can set the projector in place there.
If people want to do a side-by-side comparison with their own projector(s), that can easily be done by simply placing the other projector next to it and running the same output to both units.
Adam