Pangolin User Meeting Results (and more Free Laser Shows)

Just one very quick note folks, since I have to take my son to a game...

You can use any Pangolin content on the FB3. The license is a kind of "hardware license", which means as long as you are playing Pangolin content on FB3 hardware, you are OK.

We don't include the media (CDs and such) because there are so many CDs included with the LD2000 system. And frankly, one problem I have now is... how the heck am I going to fit these other shows on our current media?

Anyway, we will soon make the show downloads section we have spoke about for a while, and Adam's shows will be there, along with the Rupert shows (I communicated with him recently and got permission to post them), along with other Pangolin content, so these can directly be downloaded and used by FB3 users.

Bill

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Originally Posted by Pangolin

Just one very quick note folks, since I have to take my son to a game...

You can use any Pangolin content on the FB3. The license is a kind of "hardware license", which means as long as you are playing Pangolin content on FB3 hardware, you are OK.

We don't include the media (CDs and such) because there are so many CDs included with the LD2000 system. And frankly, one problem I have now is... how the heck am I going to fit these other shows on our current media?

Anyway, we will soon make the show downloads section we have spoke about for a while, and Adam's shows will be there, along with the Rupert shows (I communicated with him recently and got permission to post them), along with other Pangolin content, so these can directly be downloaded and used by FB3 users.

Bill

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Awesome - even more reason to hold on to my FB3!!

I admit, I haven't used mine in a while (and never used any files with it before other than the workspace files that came with the system, and some ILD frames I snagged off the FTP site!), so I completely forgot about the flexibility in the number of file formats the FB3 supports.

So, to head off the inevitable questions -

When you get the chance, would you mind making a summarized comparison of the two basic systems? I could see that since they'll both PLAY the same content, there might be questions from some folks when it comes to whether or not it would be worthwhile to upgrade. I'm sure your commentary would include details, capabilities, etc. that us "forumites" are bound to forget!

I know I'm convinced and EXTREMELY happy with my QM2000.net purchase, but then, I'm easy when it comes to upgrades and techno hobbies....(as you and CT Lasers have probably figured by now ;))

Thanks!!

Randy

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Originally Posted by Pangolin

You can use any Pangolin content on the FB3. The license is a kind of "hardware license", which means as long as you are playing Pangolin content on FB3 hardware, you are OK.

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Wow - I didn't know that!

Just so I understand correctly: If I create a show using showtime and LD-2000, and I save it as an .lds frame file and an .shw show file, I can then play the completed show on the FB3 using the La Studio software?

If that's true, that's *huge* news! Does this work for all the free shows that come with the Pangolin LD-2000 as well, or is it only for user-created shows?

Adam

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Originally Posted by RGBLaserFan

As for people who bemoan companies making a profit, I can't say I know any personally although I'm sure there are some! Some of us here sometimes moan about the price of things, but I think thats more because of its a case of the price vs what we can afford than because we actually begrudge anyone making a profit.

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Yes, sure, it is perfectly normal to question, or have concerns about, the costs of things. At Pangolin, we’ve done our best to control our costs and prices we charge people, and will continue to do that. In fact the LD2000 Intro system is one result of that (at one point in time we only had BASIC and PRO), and the FB3 and LA-FREAK kit is another. When we figure out a way to keep our costs low and pass the savings onto clients, that's what we do.

I was speaking more about people who think Open Source is always the best answer to everything. I have seen Open Source work well for focused projects -- like for example Codec kits, and even bigger things like for example the Star Office suite from Sun Microsystems, but so far I haven't seen it work well for the laser show biz. I say this because we have had two separate Open Source projects ourselves (Asteroids and Autoplay) with the hopes that other people would take these and make something bigger and better, but it just hasn't happened. Likewise, there are other Open Source projects in this industry which also really haven't gone anywhere. For example, the LFI Player, and also another project for the MAC, which I forget the name of, but on their web site they STRONGLY criticize Pangolin's existence and seem to present an opinion that they could do better, and do so quickly and easily. That project has been under way for years, but so far... nothing.

I don't want to take this post off-topic, and I think this is a good topic for another discussion. I just want to bring up the point that, if you don't charge any money for the software and hardware, then you won't have any money to spend on continued pursuits, or in the distribution of free content. The laser shows and royalty-free music we include are just a few examples of what we do with the money we get from selling software and hardware. Creating advanced products like Lasershow Converter MAX, with the help of top-level consultants is another example.

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Originally Posted by Stuka

When you get the chance, would you mind making a summarized comparison of the two basic systems? I could see that since they'll both PLAY the same content, there might be questions from some folks when it comes to whether or not it would be worthwhile to upgrade.

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Well let me clarify one thing first. At this point in time, the FB3 really can't "PLAY the same content". They can load and display the same FRAMES, but not the SHOWS.

As for the differences between the two, let me try to come up with a quick summary. I am sure this summary will be grossly incomplete, but here goes. I will discuss hardware first, then software.

The QM2000 hardware is a laser-computer-on-a-card. It has it's own RISC microprocessor, memory, and peripherals. It has 16-bit outputs for X, Y and Z, and eight 8-bit outputs which are normally used for color devices, but could be "trained" to work in different ways (for example to control shutters or other beam-parameter-related things). The QM2000 also has an output for something called "beam brush", but that is not used too often. For more information about "beam brush" search for my name in the US Patent database and you will find a few patents related to it. And finally, the QM2000 supports both DMX input and output for lighting control.

The FB3 hardware is also a laser-computer-on-a-card, but is much less capable. It has essentially no memory of its own (aside from the memory you may slide into a slot with laser shows). And it has only 12-bit outputs for X and Y (no Z) and only three color outputs, which are all 8-bits each. If you have the DMX Daughterboard option, the FB3 can receive and react to DMX Input, but can not generate a DMX Output. The hardware is very limited, compared with the QM2000, although we believe the FB3 is still better than any similar hardware product not made by Pangolin.

As for software, the LD2000 series is the result of around 15 years of development, which started with our LD/QM32 system and is still continuing today. It is virtually impossible to say all of the things the software can do. You could read a little about it here:
http://www.pangolin.com/_Files/LD2000.pdf

LD2000 is used by almost all of the top-named laserists in the world, and as a testament, two-out-of-three ILDA Award Winning shows this past year were made with LD2000 -- with the other third being made almost entirely by LOBO, a company that makes their own hardware and software and that receives million-dollar-budgets for laser shows. LOBO sells their hardware and software, but for a system equivalent to what you get with LD2000, you are going to be spending many many many times as much money, and I am not kidding about that! (As an illustration, I don't think there are any LOBO users on PL, and probably not on Laserfreak either.)

As for the software that comes with FB3, we include something called LiveQUICK, which is intended to be a very simple software package usable by DJs and the like, with some live control capability, and some limited ability to draw your own laser frames and create laser animations. In addition to that, we include the LAStudio software suite, which is actually quite powerful, and prior to 2002, was sold for thousands of dollars. For a while, there were a number of LaserFreak members who made shows for LAStudio and distributed them among themselves. But somehow, LAStudio users are less active these days -- certainly less so than LD2000 users.

One big difference is that we are still developing LD2000 and really not developing LAStudio any more. As a result, you get the most comprehensive software suite, plus some add-on tools (such as conversion tools, auto-digitizing tools, real time visualizers, etc. etc. and so on) with the LD2000 system that are just not available with any other platform.

If that's not enough for you, the LD2000 system has an SDK that can be used to further expand the capabilities and even to make your own complete laser software programs. In fact, LDS, Phoenix and MAMBA all use the LD2000 SDK as a means of accessing the QM2000 board:
http://www.pangolin.com/LD2000/LD2000_sdk.htm

And lastly, with so many companies using the LD2000 system, there is a wide variety of laser shows available. Over 100 are included with the system itself, and you can beg, borrow, and buy your way to over 500 pretty easily. On our on-line forum, I recalled a user who came up to me at a trade show and showed me an Excel spreadsheet he had that listed 350 laser shows he was able to get, just by trading with other people.

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Originally Posted by carmangary

Is the hardware really that much better?

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Let me see if I can come up with a good analogy. From a personal perspective, I can say that I used to like Sutter Home White Zinfandel, before I started hanging around with a wine maker in California. Is there a difference between LD2000 hardware and anything else? You betcha!

This is a good analogy because, like laser software and hardware, anybody can make their own wine. There are many people who do this as a hobby, and the resulting wines have some kind of alcohol content and some semblance of a wine taste. Some wines from hobbyists are actually quite good. But I don't think that hobby winemakers, or for that matter, Sutter Home will ever put out wines the likes of Opus One! And for people who have never had Opus One, it's just not something that can be described with words. It has to be experienced.

I do hope that there will be a PL meeting close to you, or one happening at a time when you can attend and see this for yourself. I think it will change your perspective on a lot of things!

Best regards,

William Benner

Bill some questions:

1. I can understand with FB3 being a low cost system why perhaps you don't supply the LD2000's effects libararies on CD with the FB3 package. But will it ever be possible to make all the same library of effects available as downloads to FB3 users so FB3 users can download and burn their own effect libraries and thus have a good resource of effects on which to draw on to make their own shows?

2. How does Pangolin Beyond fit into the whole scheme of LD2000 vs FB3?

I recently purchased a FB3 package.
Although the board is really nice and functions stable (usb 2.0 and Usb1.0) i find the LA studio package verry confusing for a first time new user.

I have been "playing" with the software for 2 weeks and looking into it on the web (Files from other users and tutorial based material)
Trying to put small simple well synced/tempo "shows" together.

There is no strong user"base" willing to share like the LD2k users.
I have seen the tutorial dvd chapters on the pango site....
Nice and clear.... there are alot of files and knowledge shared by de ld2k users.
The interface for sync the show effect to music/media is nicer and more intuitive.

I know the LAstudio and LD2k products are totally different products for different people and price groups... But the LA software has me so frustrated right know that i have set the FB3 aside hoping for better days (maybe Beyond brings great things for ALL users FB3 and QM2k).

Maybe it is just me... because i don't see alot of fb3/LA suite "critique" on the Web... thats why i bougt it.

If this was my job/occupation/career i would be dropping the money for the LD2k/QM package without a doubt.
But i'm a non commercial hobbyist amateur that can't justify the cost for a already expensive hobby (knowing i'm not willing to make any money with the hobby).

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Originally Posted by Pangolin

Just one very quick note folks, since I have to take my son to a game...

You can use any Pangolin content on the FB3. The license is a kind of "hardware license", which means as long as you are playing Pangolin content on FB3 hardware, you are OK.

We don't include the media (CDs and such) because there are so many CDs included with the LD2000 system. And frankly, one problem I have now is... how the heck am I going to fit these other shows on our current media?

Anyway, we will soon make the show downloads section we have spoke about for a while, and Adam's shows will be there, along with the Rupert shows (I communicated with him recently and got permission to post them), along with other Pangolin content, so these can directly be downloaded and used by FB3 users.

Bill

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so can fb3 users download shows that will work on livepro for the fb3 from the panglion web site?

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Originally Posted by andy_con

so can fb3 users download shows that will work on livepro for the fb3 from the panglion web site?

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FB3 users will be able to download any frames (Lasershow Designer Secure file format) and use them. The shows (Showtime secure file format) won't work because that format is not understood by LAStudio.

Regarding the comments made by Anthony -- I can agree to an extent, but would like to point out one thing: Originally, we only included the LiveQUICK software with the FB3. Then, later we started including the LAStudio software package.

Originally, in lets say 2000 through 2002, LAStudio was on the market for thousands of dollars. Since 2002 we have been giving LAStudio away for free, so it is essentially free software. (At least at Pangolin, we consider it to be free software.)

Once you get the hang of it, you will find it is quite powerful. Even through no significant development has been done on it since 2002, it does some things better than any other software in the world (even better than LD2000)!

One thing does surprise me though -- that people haven't really haven't banded together as a self-supporting organization, and I also don't see a whole lot of show-sharing going on there either. Once we released it for free, I figured there would be a lot of user self-support for this free software. As I am sitting here writing this, it occurs to me that I haven't seen that for other free laser software either. Hmmmm....

Anyway, once BEYOND comes out, there will be a better solution for FB3 users, and they will effectively have access to shows made with LD2000, and a whole lot more...

Thanks for the time you have all taken to read this post, and for your thoughtful comments!

Bill

I have seen some shows shared on here. I think that the perceived lack of sharing is mainly due to the lack of people creating many of them. Also, maybe people don't think their shows are good enough to share. Who knows?

But another issue is the copyrighted audio files that need to go with them. My sharing is not done in the public because I can't post audio files on the internet.

Bill -

Thanks for taking your time to describe the differences between the Pangolin hardware systems! A lot of good info here - we need to keep this thread handy for future reference!

As a user of both systems, thank-you for your development work and the continued support you provide your customers AND the folks that hang out on this forum!


Randy