is there any free/pretty cheap and affordable software that can draw out graphics that are animated along with nice beam shows? EASY TO USE
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is there any free/pretty cheap and affordable software that can draw out graphics that are animated along with nice beam shows? EASY TO USE
Hey there :)
Welcome to PL. Please tell us a bit about yourself as an introduction? If you wouldn't mind updating your location in your profile, people can give you region specific advice and sometimes even local help.
Your question is hard to answer as it would depend on whether you are intending just to create or playback graphics and/or beamshows with a laser projector attached. If you are intending to do this with a projector the answer is guided by which DAC/computer interface you build or buy.
So let us know some more info...
Cheers,
Tony
Free/cheap and easy to use is a tall order. Even the expensive software isn't exactly easy, at least not what I'd consider easy.
Check out this thread, it may help you with your search.
http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...read.php/11026
Spaghetti is cheap and easy to use. It doesn't allow drawing at this time but does do text. I will create a drawing application eventually but for now most users use other free applications to create ILDA files if they need them. Most people use Spaghetti for creating beams shows where the images are not much more than simple circles or lines. The animation of these simple shapes is via the effects processor in Spaghetti.
^I think "cheap" is in the eye of the beholder on that one.. Spaghetti's gone up in price a bit over the last year.
Maybe we should stop replying to folks who cannot even put their first thread in "Software" instead of laser display files?
Sphag, LFI player, represent hundreds or thousands of hours of work and the authors rarely get a thank you. The amount of $hit CG had to take over a freeware is why he started charging for it in the first place.
Every time Mike gets a negative feedback on LFI Player @ Sourceforge about the user interface, etc he emails me and asks if he should pull it. Hes not thin skinned, either. People do not seem to realize that getting a PC to output smooth laser art involves having to find ways of shutting down M$ Windows internal desires to shut down, or interrupt anything that runs in real time. That is not easy. LFI player using MIDI inputs went into many, many, commercial installs, and those customers never had a problem
I'm also thinking we should ban the words cheap and free in initial posts, unless they include the phrase "Here is a free X to all .. Where X means insert frames, hardware design, show etc"
100-200$ is low cost for the amount of work you have to put in.
Doing a good laser show requires work, and if folks are not willing to put in the work, so be it.
Even for a basic one track/two track beamshow for a song, it takes me two hours per minute with clipart to get it right.. why should I give that kind of work away to a FNG nube who will claim it as his own when he uses it? That line comes from the guy who has more posts on line over how to do lasers, since 1992 or so... Thimk About it!.
Steve
I absolutely disagree with that requirement, but I do agree with most of what you said here. I have no issue with whatever any developer wants to charge, after all it is THEIR product, but I also see nothing wrong AT ALL with trying to see what can be done in this hobby with the barest minimum of financial expense. In fact, I respect that more than most people's attempts at buying the most expensive crap money can buy. It's not too hard to fork over a few pieces of currency if you have them.. it's a whole different game to do this stuff with extremely limited means. Also, I see aboslutely nothing wrong with the creation of low-cost software and tools that have features which simplify and streamline the show creation process. Just because it takes you a lot of work to come up with shows doesn't mean that people always will.. that is one of the primary purposes of technology: to simplify and streamline tasks which would ordinarily be difficult or tedious.
It's the mindset that "this hobby is, and SHOULD BE, expensive" that frustrates DIYers, and keeps many people from being able to participate in the enterprise. *tin foil hat alert*: of course, you know I firmly believe there are people who would like to keep this little club as exclusive as possible.. ;);)
As much as I love LFI player, one cannot expect that their product will maintain 100% good feedback as more and more users attempt to use it. That's just not realistic, especially when the product in question isn't overly user-friendly. Yes it's exceedingly powerful, and awesome for the price, but when new people first try it out and find that it can be difficult, that WILL lead to a few negative bits of feedback. I don't see anything wrong with that. Given the overwhelmingly good feedback LFI has recieved, I don't think there's ANY justification at all for pulling it just because a few folks spoke their mind.
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It's the mindset that "this hobby is, and SHOULD BE, expensive" that frustrates DIYers, and keeps many people from being able to participate in the enterprise. *tin foil hat alert*: of course, you know I firmly believe there are people who would like to keep this little club as exclusive as possible.. ;);)
End Quote
No, some of us just hate the "spillover" of garbage work into the professional/artistic side of the business. Ie the "rack it up and run" crowd that wants to make a quick buck, cheapens the client's view of the industry. Its hard to find a laser professional when you really need one, when "clipart" won't do. Why? Because few people actually know how to be more then (Quoting James Lehman) "Projectionists who don't know how to use their software".
Hooking up a projector and just letting it run through the canned stuff on automatic is not a good laser show and never will be.
Steve
Hmm, that must suck for you, always being bothered by the little guys. As far as I'm concerned, it's how the audience feels after the show that counts.. which means there is room for all types of laserists.
The heavyweight professionals will always give us little guys something to aspire to, and I have a feeling that the need for truly talented laserists hasn't diminished.. but just because not everyone is as talented, creative, or whatnot, doesn't mean they have no business doing a show for some audience somewhere. If the audience leaves the room feeling 'wowed", I don't see a problem no matter who did the show. The finer points are always only noticed by the "insider" crowd.. all couple-hundred of us worldwide.. and there's always something to be said for the pursuit of perfection.. but I will always believe that there is room in this hobby for people of all skill levels, tastes, and financial means. In fact, that belief is a HUGE part of why I (and a few others) exist here in this hobby at all, and why I post on these forums. Much to the chagrin of the "elitists" I'm sure..
[QUOTE=ElektroFreak;166195]Hmm, that must suck for you, always being bothered by the little guys. As far as I'm concerned, it's how the audience feels after the show that counts.. which means there is room for all types of laserists.
I'm not bothered by the little guys who try hard. I'm bothered by the folks who buy a box, hit the on button and let it set there, and undercut prices.
I'm not a elitist by a long shot, if I was, I would not be posting here. The elitists are the ones that read here to find out the latest and greatest, and never post a thing in return.
Life is a two way street, and I'm standing in traffic. However I do not see how any portion of the industry is served by buying a 250$ 100 mW box and calling it a laser show, and charging for it.
Dude, you need to make it a big LEM or ILDA conf and see what can really result from hard work. It might really affect which way you want to see laser as a art form progress.
Since you keep calling everybody who earns a living, "Elites", maybe you need to open your eyes and redefine "Elite". If your definition of "Elite" is getting paid to crawl through the trash under the bar and stage at a "gentleman's club" looking for a cut in a cable, then I'm a "Elite". If your definition of "Elite" is sticking my hand in a box of energized three phase and water looking for what emitted the "magic smoke", then I'm a "Elite". Next up is some horse trading at the local surplus place so I can get a prototype up. Since I have to make things work to get paid, I have a pretty good idea of what needs to be done for a successful show that entertains people.
Why am I not a "elite" in this industry? I'm not a socialite. Well, last night I did not do a line of cocaine or get drunk with some rock band's promoter, meaning I did not get the big gig in LA. Instead I'm driving cross town to ruin a pair shoes, inspecting a line of optics holders coming off a CNC machine, on a oily shop floor. Then I need to do a cold call on a potential trade show client, and when I do the math for 2 days of travel and running 1 watt of green for 8 hours, 5 hours from home, at the going rate, it doesn't add up.
Watch whom you call elite dude..
Steve
Steve
I've seen some BIG shows by top companies.. I just think that they have their place, along with each person in this hobby/profession, each at their own level. Art is in the eye of the beholder, my friend. I once saw a white canvas with black stripes on it sell for over $1mil. And it's considered "high-end" art.
My usage of the term "elite" only applies to anyone for whom the shoe fits. I did not, nor have I ever that I can remember, name a single name. Therefore there is no need to watch who I label. If you feel the term applies to you, that's your call. I'm sure you have your reasons for feeling that way.
I'm a newbie, and I peruse the forums to learn and absorb everything I can. If i can't comprehend, I look it up. I have gotten books from the library to read, etc. This is the first time I have run into a post that gives the perception of elitism. I have heard it exists, especially those laerists with a "disposable income". I agree with Elektrofreak....it is all about spreading interest in the hobby, pulling in new ideas, and opening it up to the possibility of making it cheaper, more affordable. It does not cheapen or degrade what anyone else does. If the elitists chase off all us newbies because we can't afford a $2000+++ payout for a hobby, then to hell with you then. You've done nothing to promote the hobby.
Mixedgas-who are you to judge how another laserist uses and/or charges for their hobby? It is really none of your business nor does it degrade what you do or the shows you put on. We all have a right do work the hobby as we please and answer to no one.
Personally, I am going to be jumping up and down with excitement the first time I can create a circle, triangle, heart...whatever the hell I come up with.....it will be my art, my creation, and my show.
Period.
^And that kind of enthusiasm is priceless IMO. You will reap the greatest satisfaction when you see the work of your own mind and two hands light up and go!
Absolutely! It will wow you and your friends (and even some strangers). It most likely would not wow 50,000 folks at a major event.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserchik
That's the difference in hobbyists and professionals.
Kind of like the guy that installs his own brake pads on the car at his house. He's a hobbyist, learned something, and saved a few bucks. Most likely he did not machine the rotors because he doesn't have a few thousand dollar lathe (projector). He will most likely not put up a sign that says $35 brake jobs (laser show co) -- and if he does, it will cheapen the professional mechanics (laserists). I know. I fix 35 dollar brake jobs every day. Maybe a poor analogy.........
So is there or is there not a WIDE variety of professional services available in any field of work, anywhere? Of course there is. The guys who want to wow 30,000 people have their place, and laserchik here has her place, wowing herself. To me, they are equally important to the future of laser shows. It is NOT the professional's god-given right to try to dictate to everyone else what is good, or what is not.. what is "art" and what is not. Simply because they are "professional" does not place them in a position of authority over the rest of the laser show world. We appreciate what they do and what they have done. Sadly (for those of them who harbor ill-regard toward hobbyists, those who feel that our ingenuity and interest are "spoiling" their precious "art") their secrets are out. Their methods are known. There's no taking it back. I have one thing to say to any professional who would choose to try to control all things relating to shows: Adapt or die. Those are the choices now..
Nah, I get what you are saying, but if my little show can impress a few, and people are willing to pay for my little show, then that is their decision. All the more wowed they will be when they see a larger, more professional show. All I am saying is that one shouldn't judge how another hobbyist/professional makes their money. It is a free country.
I can only hope to get to the caliber of what I saw at SELEM. But I am a realist, unless I come into an inheritance or win the lottery, I can never go out and buy the hardware that you guys have. That is why it would be cool to be a part of a team where I can do the art/creative side, and they have the equipment....together we can put on a pretty good show......
So-I can not only fix my brakes, and maybe others, but eventually learn to machine the rotors.....but not have someone tell me I can't or won't help me because I don't have the "disposable income" to support it...
That's the truth at the core of this issue. I cannot say that those who do illegal shows should be respected, but if anyone who has gone to the effort to obtain the necessary authorization wants to do a show, REGARDLESS of the expense of their equipment or their expertise, they have the right to, and rightfully so. If they can undercut the competition, so be it. More power to them. It's up to the established professionals to remain competitive either through competitive pricing, or by maintaining such a stellar reputation that people will gladly pay more to hire them. All I see when people offer the viewpoints put forth in posts 6, 8 and 10 is a fear of competition. Don't be fearful, be competitive. It'll do you a LOT more good. Also, continue to help people with safety, so that at the end of the day we can all say we did what we could to help keep this a fun and exciting hobby/profession.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserchik
@ElektroFreak - EXACTLY. Well put.
If you think it is bad here try posting a question on alt.hvac asking how to repair your air conditioner. :)
Fortunately for all, there are volumes of texts available on HVAC.. in every possible capacity. I can believe that it can be pretty hostile there, though.. Texts on laser shows are few and far between, however. Thank God for the Interwebz, huh?
Heck, I am an international travel agent....there are many in my profession that get all twisted up when a traveler needs a little extra hand holding at times. It is unfortunate that some people feel the need to act this way. I have no problem taking my time with them....international travel can be scary for those that have never done it before.
On behalf of mixedgas (not that he necessarily needs my support - his credentials stand on their own!) -
I really don't think his comments were aimed at anyone who normally participates here, or attends SELEM. I think his comments were aimed squarely at those that are in for the quick buck, and nothing else. While his initial response may have seemed a bit harsh for the person that initially started this thread, I can't say that I 100% blame him for his initial reaction.
For those who don't know - or realize - who he is in person, Steve (mixedgas) is the guy who attends every SELEM, and winds up - quite literally - spending the vast majority of his time helping out anyone who needs it. His efforts probably save the "little guys" that he is helping hundreds or perhaps thousands of dollars in repairs or replacements costs, and he charges nothing more than a "thank you" and a serious show of interest from those he is helping.
Chalk it up to the the limits of communication via typed words on a forum, and the fact that having been around or in the business since it's early days, Steve can come across as a bit of a harsh perfectionist - in reality, he is one of the best supporters the hobbiest and "little guy" trying to seriously get in the business can have.
My 10 cents worth...
A license is required to buy refrigerant. That is why the cost of A/C work is so insanely high. The technicians can charge what they want because they know you can't do it yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElektroFreak
EF and LC both make very very valid points.
The pros and people making their living in this industry also have very valid points on protecting their livelyhoods; some go about it the right way and some are just greedy bastards.
That's the truth, at least the way I see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixedgas
The markets are self correcting; tires/brakes/automotive, laser shows, really any field.
If a business charges way too much and delivers way too little, the market (customers) will realize and go else where.
If a business undercuts all their competitors, the business cannot sustain. maybe for a time, but not for long. Cut-throat pricing damages everyone but the very business doing so, it hurts more than anyone else. The greedy don't see it and overreact, but *it will* self correct.
There is enough business to go around. Having said that, laser shows are not a required product like tires and brakes, but the underlying business principals are the same.
The greedy will always be greedy. Some newcomer looking to cut-throat on volume won't last because they can't sustain and/or deliver.
This isn't directed towards anyone, just discussion.
OH, Laserchick, IIRC, there have been ILDA show award winners for their art that *did not own* a laser.
@mophead - Thank you for the info on the ILDA award winner. That is VERY encouraging! :)
@Stuka - ok, ok....I met Steve at SELEM too...and you and your wife as well. I never witnessed him helping, but I have no doubt he did. But his posting did seem to give a slap on the hand to the one who started the thread. He shouldn't have come on so negatively to someone that wanted to learn and had a question. O_o
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Originally Posted by Laserchik
Hmmm...you somehow look...different than I remember....:confused: :D
Yep!Quote:
Originally Posted by mophead
If I remember my show titles correctly, the first time "Standing in Motion" was seen in laser was during the competition! :cool:
@Stuka - lol, my avatar is not a pic of me-sorry to anyone that disappoints....lol. I was Displaser's (Greg)girlfriend. We broke up after SELEM, but maybe that will remind you?
Steve needs no defense because there was never any hostility directed at him personally except perhaps for his reaction to the OP. I know Steve's a good guy at heart, hell he's helped me with direct questions that I've asked him, and through the FAQ.. I just disagree with his position from time to time, but that hasn't hurt my respect for him. If anyone doesn't know that I speak my mind openly here, then they are stuck under a rock or something.
...and only silence from lightman10? Perhaps all this passionate debate is intimidating? ;)
@lightman10: Please let us know some more details about what you're wanting to do and with what equipment?
Yep, I remember!Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserchik
Freaky / cool avatar, BTW! ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElektroFreak
All's good - there's been more than a couple of us who have been known to openly speak our minds on the forum!! :)
... and fill out your profile, please!! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by taggalucci
Somehow missed you at SELEM, thinking I met Greg. Perhaps next yearQuote:
Originally Posted by Laserchik
You probably met Greg, He was pretty much around for everything that was going on. I am thinking I met you, as I recognize your name....but, if not, then yes, I hope to meet you next year.Quote:
Somehow missed you at SELEM, thinking I met Greg. Perhaps next year
hahaha well... aside from all that i take it there is not much to offer from free software..
As far as drawing (animated graphics) software goes whats my best best out of these? and where can i download them at? (couldn't seem to get my hand on them)
LaserBoy
LaserWave
HE-Laserscan
LFI player
OLA
Monkeytools
Heathcliff
Sergy's tools
In case you missed it, lightman10's intro is here http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...w-to-the-forum
Welcome to PL :)
Given that you're building a soundcard-based system, that will limit the software (free or otherwise) that you could use.
As I've not gone down the soundcard DAC path, perhaps someone else can help the man out. I know 300Evil has great experience here...
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Originally Posted by JohnYayas
Been there, done that, I was so shocked by the attitude and general rudeness of the regulars there that I went off on my own, got certified to work on the equipment and have installed and repaired several systems for friends and family members. I absolutely despise the attitude that any trade is some exclusive club that nobody who hasn't jumped through all the hoops and put up with all the BS could possibly manage to learn. Attitude goes a long way, and professionals in many fields would do well to maintain a positive image of the profession and those who do it for a living. Trying to squash the little guy wanting to learn something without making a career out of it just breeds resentment.
That said, I haven't (yet) encountered much of that with laserists. I also have no interest in putting on public shows for money. I've loved lasers and laser shows since I saw my first one as a kid in the mid 80s and have been hooked ever since. Most of that time it was only a dream to be able to do anything remotely like that at home due to the high cost of all the specialized equipment involved. Now I can do some impressive things in my own home that are a lot of fun. It's no replacement for going out to see Laser Floyd, etc, but it's exciting none the less. There is a feeling from building your own stuff at home and seeing it work that just can't be had any other way.
In fairness to Steve, it's not the hobbyists who go through the effort to get their equipment certified that he's upset about. It's the clueless newbies (including folks like one "prodja**en" from California who shall remain nameless) who buy cheap, illegal equipment (either off e-bay, or from China, or both) and do nothing more than set it up on automatic for a 4-hour show.... The one's who don't even try to do a good show, and are only out to make a fast buck before they get kicked out of the venue because the show sucks so badly.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElektroFreak
Those are the ones who cheapen the very concept of a "laser show", making it hard for even the pro's to sell a show in the future. (Once a promoter sees a lousy illegal show, he's unlikely to book lasers at following events.)
For companies that are large enough (Lasernet, Lightwave, etc), that's an option. But for smaller companies, many of their gigs are from promoters who are unfamiliar with their company, or even with laser shows in general. They don't have a "reputation", because they're so small. And those are the companies that get squeezed when promoter's in general decide that laser shows suck. All because some idiot did a crap show with his $500 E-bay special that he figured was bright enough for a ball room with 2500 people in it. :rolleyes:Quote:
It's up to the established professionals to remain competitive either through competitive pricing, or by maintaining such a stellar reputation that people will gladly pay more to hire them.
In short, I don't think Steve would have a problem with anyone here on PL getting into the business. Everyone here has a healthy respect for laser safety, we all understand the risks associated with audience scanning (both the direct eye hazards and the litigation risk), and we all strive to build the best projectors we can. Truthfully, many of the home-built projectors I've seen here on PL are *superior* to the projectors I've seen used at commercial laser shows. We've got some very talented people here...:)
On a side note: the show that won the 2008 Pangolin laser show award despite the fact that the laserist who created the show did not have a projector to view it in laser on was the "Rhythm is a Dancer" graphics show, not the "Standing in Motion" beam show. I know, because I was present at the meeting when we voted on the shows. (And I still say that "Rhythm is a Dancer" should have won first place instead of 3rd! Grrr...)
Adam
Thanks for your well-thought-out response as always Adam.Quote:
Originally Posted by buffo
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElektroFreak
I agree that some of Steve's posts do sound like he's bashing all hobbyists. But I think that's mostly due to the narrow bandwidth communication's medium we're stuck with here in the forums, rather than any sort of malice on his part. (I know in the past his passion has been miss-interpreted as malice.)
If you ever get a chance to chat him up in person, you'll see that this really isn't where he's coming from. He's actually a hell of a guy, and he is absolutely dedicated to helping people. (Man, you should see him at SELEM! The guy spends the whole freakin' time working on other people's lasers for free! He's a damn machine at times...) True, he's got a little "frustrated teacher" in him, but most smart people I know have that.
However, like a lot of people (including me sometimes!:o), he can at times allow his thoughts to get ahead of his typing fingers, which results in his message becoming unclear or more curt than he wanted it to be. It would probably be best if everyone re-read their posts before hitting the submit button, but that takes extra time, and we all know how precious time is these days!
haha! OK, I have to give you that one. Steve can get "preachy" at times (frustrated teacher syndrome), but it's only because he's got so much experience to share. And like a lot of experienced people, he often recoils when his statements are called into question. But he's also got integrity. If he's ever proved wrong, he has no qualms about admitting his mistakes. It's just that he's very rarely wrong... ;)Quote:
Steve is not a supporter of hobbyists that I have seen, except maybe those who accept his "gospel" as fact..
But he really does support hobbyists. You wouldn't believe some of the things I've seen him do for ordinary folks who have no intentions of ever going into business. Like I said, if you could sit down with him over dinner, you'd have a much different opinion of him by the time they brought the dessert cart around. :)
Quote:
In your quote above I am very clear about the fact that only those who have gone through the certification process have the right to do paying shows in the US.
And I believe that once Steve re-reads your post, he will agree with you. :) I know I do already. ;)
Adam
then we have something in common..Quote:
Originally Posted by buffo
Quote:
Originally Posted by buffo(I know in the past his passion has been miss-interpreted as malice.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElektroFreak
No, you've actually been malicious.
The difference is that even when Steve gets passionate, he doesn't tell people to Fuck Off. You have done that (several times), and that's when you cross the line from passion into genuine malice.
Adam