Need Manual reset mechanism wiring help...

I am trying to wire up a Manual reset mechanism for my projector certification and can't seem to get my head around how to wire a push button and NPN transistor into my interlock loop... cause http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...4&d=1262150209 Can someone tell me what pins on the transistor need to be hooked up to what wires in my interlock loop and the push button switch? I think I am actually loosing hair over this... :o

The parts I am trying to use are:

NPN Transistor: http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062610

Momentary push button switch: http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062501

My interlock loop looks like:
http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...7&d=1304105994
I want it to look like:
http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...6&d=1304105993

Just the Push button, Normally close?
(N/C) R S I now have this.

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Originally Posted by megaton

Just the Push button, Normally close?
(N/C) R S I now have this.

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Normally open per the Radio shack site: "This momentary switch is perfect for short connections. Normally open and rated 3 amps at 125VAC."

I might have it after a call to Spec; I have been trying to get the base and emitter connected by putting the switch on the collector; seems like I might need to use the base to connect the collector and emitter... *vigil

I see RS only have normally close ugly ones.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062540
To use a Normally open, I once use a SCR instead of a Xtor.
Let me check diagrams.
And I remember also using the contacts of a relay to do the trick. (NC contact in series with the coil and the SW).

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Originally Posted by megaton

I see RS only have normally close ugly ones.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062540
To use a Normally open, I once use a SCR instead of a Xtor.
Let me check diagrams.
And I remember also using the contacts of a relay to do the trick. (NC contact in series with the coil and the SW).

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I may have to look at the SCR now that I have looked up what they are.

The Normally Open switch I have I got from RS: http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062501

I have hooked it up as Spec and I talked about; I am testing it with an LED but it only comes on when I push the button and goes off when I release the button. :confused: This is also occuring when I throw it in the interlock loop. :(

In DC, SCR latch when has input in the gate and stay on until power down.
The link for RS NC are:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062540

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Originally Posted by megaton

In DC, SCR latch when has input in the gate and stay on until power down.

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Hmmm, I was under the impression that was how the transistor was supposed to work. I'll hit RS tomorrow for a SCR. Thanks!

Check first.
I do a search in RS for SCR and nada.
I use this numbers TIC116D or MCR100-4
I hope this help.
And how about the Normally close switch in series with the coil.

Not sure if this helps you out... Here's the info I put together on the wiring info Adam and Bill gave me...

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/showthread.php/10314-Need-some-help!-My-first-RGB-projector-project-(expecting-approx.-2W-system)?p=140261#post140261

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Originally Posted by megaton

Check first.
I do a search in RS for SCR and nada.
I use this numbers TIC116D or MCR100-4
I hope this help.
And how about the Normally close switch in series with the coil.

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I find this at RS (Full-Wave Bridge Rectifiers for Power Supplies):
http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062580

I am not sure I understand how to use an NC switch with a relay in the way you mean; I currently am using a relay in the interlock, I just want to be able to hit a button after I plug the interlock plug in to fully complete the circuit. If he interlock is broken, I want the switch on teh button to reset so it has to be pressed again to complete the interlock so the projector doesn't start back up when whatever broke the interlock circuit gets resolved.

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Originally Posted by taggalucci

Not sure if this helps you out... Here's the info I put together on the wiring info Adam and Bill gave me...

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/showthread.php/10314-Need-some-help!-My-first-RGB-projector-project-(expecting-approx.-2W-system)?p=140261#post140261

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I bookmarked this although the problem is I can't read those schimatics so I don't know what do follow. :o

Hi Aaron

No the full bridge is to make a PSU. that does the conversion from AC to DC
In your relay you have spare contacts?

Cheers,
Ed

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Originally Posted by megaton

In your relay you have spare contacts?

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No; I am using one set for AC power to the lasers and the other is for the LED indicators to show if the interlock is open or completed. I want the button to complete the coil circuit of the relay but I also want it to reset if the loop is broken causing the need to push it again before the loop can be completed again.

why not just use an estop that you have to twist to reset? thats what my OSLS uses as its manual reset

I think I get it what you need.:confused:
And with the Switch that you have (Normal Open) You can use it to direct connect the coil
just connect in series with the spare contacts of the relay (Com and Normal Open) to make the latch. And if some event break the circuit, the coil realse the contacts and waits for you to rest again. "I hope my English is good enough to explain this".:)

Oops I think I put this later.

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Originally Posted by flecom

why not just use an estop that you have to twist to reset? thats what my OSLS uses as its manual reset

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Try looking up for the Stanwax ILDA board that has all this built on to it and is designed to work with an E-stop with Key release, additional start / Reset button and Status LED.
I just go mine from Rob last week. One E-stop for 1,2 or 3 projectors working down the spare lines in the ILDA cable.

Carl

Hey Bud -

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Originally Posted by allthatwhichis

I want the button to complete the coil circuit of the relay but I also want it to reset if the loop is broken causing the need to push it again before the loop can be completed again.

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This is the one I designed awhile-back for integration with a Laserscope interlock-loop... works-great: (...for that-purpose...)

Attachment 24894

I've 'simplified' it for ya, with the ILDA 'interlock loop' in place of the LS interlock-loop... I am sure you can figure out how this would work, in your sys...
(save-for the 2-state LED... this one only indicates a fault, but could likely be modded to match your 2-state design...)

(...see nu design below.....)

... you could also 'sub' (in-place of the 'ILDA interlock-loop' in this drawing) the color-sig ground-lines for your lasers... basically, anything that will 'interrupt lasing' should be OK... I welcome suggestions for improvement from my 'electronics-seniors' (which is just about everybody... :))

Suggested relay is, ie: http://cgi.ebay.com/OMRON-MY4N-DC24-...item5d25563faa
..and suggested socket / base is, ie: http://di104.shoppingshadow.com/imag...49x149-0-0.jpg

The only thing you'd need to 'verify' / x-check in my 'ILDA-version' would-be the 'placement' of the correct contacts to use in the relay-socket... the 'contact-numbers' are all correct (see schem) but I don't have a sample of that base, here, to ref. so I'm not positive that the contacts, are-indeed, in the positions I drew-up... But, I'm sure you 'get it'... :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carl B

Try looking up for the Stanwax ILDA board that has all this built on to it and is designed to work with an E-stop with Key release, additional start / Reset button and Status LED.

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...OR, yeah, sure....what Carl and/or Fle said... Both great suggestions... http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...ons/icon14.png

Hope this helps... :cool:
peas...
j

^He is the Master:)

The thing is you need more contacts.:rolleyes:
Or another relay.(coil in parallel)and don't forget the diode is Important.And the polarity of this.

Cheers,
Ed

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Originally Posted by flecom

why not just use an estop that you have to twist to reset? thats what my OSLS uses as its manual reset

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Because this does not satisfy the Class IV comanded re-start requirement of 21 CFR 1040.10(f)(10) as interpreted by the CDRH. (This comes straight from Casey Stack's presentation last year.)

Put simply: With everything running and the manual E-stop in the run position, what happens when you yank the ILDA cable out? You break the loop, and the projector shuts down, right? OK, now plug the cable back in. Your projector just re-started WITHOUT A COMMAND FROM THE OPERATOR. Thus, you fail. Casey mentioned that this is exactly what an inspector will do to test your interlock in the field.

It's not just the E-stop that has to be manually re-set. For any Class IV projector, *all* starts must be commanded by the operator. And the one that will always bite you in the ass is the ILDA cable test, unless you design your interlock with a latching relay and a separate "start" switch. (Normally a normally-open, push to close, pushbutton switch.)

Adam

well you might want to let the CDRH know because OSLS has been selling their LT boxes as class IV and thats the only manual reset they have

pretty sure the wording says you need A manual reset... not every possibility of lasing stopping requires a manual reset

could definately be wrong...

remember Casey was extremely conservative in a lot of his opinions (as he needs to be)

Hey Aaronmon... :)

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Originally Posted by buffo

...*all* starts must be commanded by the operator. And the one that will always bite you in the ass is the ILDA cable test, unless...

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This one should fix-ya up - either a trip of anything in your 'mechanical' interlock-loop (keysw, door-intlk. sw. e-stop, etc, etc) OR yanking the ILDA-cable should cause a 'lock-out' state in the Omron there, that will require the manual-reset button to be pressed, with that nice-little 'visual-fault' LED as a trip-indicator... :cool:

Attachment 24924

Oh, and, fyi: http://www.opto22.com/site/pr_detail...=3&item=DC60MP

...again, to my 'electronics-elders', feel free to correct... :)

Hope this'll do-da trick fer ya... :cool:
peas..
j

Update...

Adam took my diagram... I quote, "What a mess..." and added what I needed to add and where to run what wires and IT WORKS!!! I even soldered the transistor and a couple of resistors onto a lil radio shack printed circuitboard. *retardo Not exactly DZ quality but much better than anyone would think I could do. http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...4&d=1244442534

when I hit the power switch on the projector the front power light comes on along with the scanner power supply, when I plug in the interlock plug the green light comes on to tell me the interlock circuit is complete and ready to start, when I hit the start button the green light goes out and the red light comes on along with the laser power supplies. If the circuit is broken for any reason, ILDA cable pulled, front panel opened, or interlock plug pulled, power is killed to the lasers. Once the offending interlock issue is fixed, the green light comes on and it takes a start button push to get power back to the lasers, aka a Manual reset.

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...0&d=1240454970

Thank you for everyone's suggestions and assistance!!!

hey Bro...

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Originally Posted by allthatwhichis

...and IT WORKS!!!

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Most-excellent werk... :cool:

The only 'counterthought' I would-offer, is the 'legacy-laser paradigm' of killing actual AC-power to the lasers (...vs just any output...) leaves you with, what would seem to me, to introduce a 'riskier condition' (long-term 'health'-wise...), for DPSS / diode lasers, if, ie they have been running 'hot' for hours and hours, and, then, 'some tool yanks your ilda-cable' - now you suddenly have no cooling fans, :( till you can manage to 'scramble' / reset... Yeah, it's 'far-fetched' - but so is 'some tool yanking your ilda-cable completely out of it's screw-lugs' during operation... :)

IMO, in a 'solid-state scenario', it is much-better to simply 'kill / disable output', while leaving power to fans, etc, still running - Really, the 'kill laser AC' was more-appropriate for legacy-ions, when, if an interlock 'tripped', the laser-itself, might still be 'beaming', (ie: if PSU-interlocks were not tied-in with projector interlocks, rarely, if-ever, done, in-practice 'in the field'...) With the 'solid-state paradigm', you certainly can safely kill all output - especially if you also tied-in a mechanical beam-shutter, ie: RGB's compact-series - while maintaining cooling... :cool:

I believe (IIRC) this is an 'acceptable / certifiable-scenario', FDA-wise, especially under the move towards the IEC-standards in this regard.. (see CDRH 'Laser Notice 50'...I'll have to re-read, later tonite to make sure I'm not 'smokin somethin'... :)

I'm not 'critisizing', just offering-up 'food for thought'... :cool:

peas..
j

Thanks Jon! That would be easy to impliment by changing my relay to cut the shutter signal, or swap out my 5 volt PSU to two 5 volt PSUs and cut the shutter PSU as the blue and shutter are running off one PSU now. Unfortunatly I sent in my product report last week and it shows the laser PSUs losing power if the interlock is broken... :rolleyes: I am with you though; the interlock shouldn't be broken unless something really bad occurs, so I'll leave it this way for a bit. :cool:

It would seem a TIP 120 and a FET could be made to perform the same task on a smaller signal voltage scale..say 5vdc ..or multiple chips on a common board eliminating the balky relay....
My standard projector case is 9.5 X 12 X 13 inches and the PSU has an interlock to power up the whole unit.....that is what I am using...it has something like 3vdc on the signal and must see a return on the specified pin....

I am actualy using a npn TIP31 transistor; my relay is 12 volts and I have a nice lil 15 volt PSU for the whole loop. As far as I know it is not like Jon's picture. It is a lot like the one I have above with a couple of things moved in the loop. Adam only designed the push button via TIP31 addition to add to my current interlock loop. I also like to hear the sound of the coil on the relay to tell me it really worked.

It goes 15 volt PSU->pressure switch->pressure switch->DZ board interlock loop->ilda cable->DZ board->head phone jack-> 470 Ohm resistor->TIP31 base (has a tie to 15V neg with a 10k Ohm resistor inline)...TIP31 collector to 15 volt positive...TIP31 emitter->push button->relay pin 5 which switches from pin 1 to 3 when relay coil throws, pin 1 goes to green LED when coil is "open" and pin 3 goes to red LED and pin 7 to energize coil and fire PSUs up; pin 8 obviously goes to 15 volt neg. The other side of the push button is hooked to the pin 3, red LED, and pin 7 line.

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...3&d=1259258101

Just got the whole circuit working in the Kvant, or should I say DIY 5000, serial # 2... *retardo Just barely fits and I need to drill a hole in the back to mount the push button. That's tomorrow's goal as the boss won't like me pulling a drill out at 2:30 in the morning. *vigil