ML501P73-2, a capless 638nm 5.6mm 500mW Red Laser Diode - Test results.

The hope is that the emitter on the P73 is identical to the G71, although this has not been proven yet it appears to be likely.

If they are optically the same; then the same correction optics will work on both the G71 & P73.
A GB is running for the relevant optics on here:
http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...tion-optics-GB

At present there is a lack of suppliers for the P73, prices have been reported to be around 110USD, if you find any sources then please share the info for everyone.


Optics:
First Lens :2mm ( Available from Dave on the forum) Dave can supply a mount for the lens.

Second lens ( Available from kiyoukan on the forum - See the GB above )
Third Lens ( Available from kiyoukan on the forum - See the GB above )

Drivers
Suitable drivers are available from a few vendors:
Die4Drive
DrLava
Eddison

Diode protection available from
Not Needed.

Datasheet
http://www.mitsubishielectric.com/se...1p73_p1245.pdf

Usage and Configuration
Available from CDbeam

Credits for the Development of the G71 solution goto
CDbeam
Solarfire
logsquared
kiyoukan
Steve-o


To be continued...

The price tag sounds about right from what I am hearing. I am being told they should be available next month but I am not getting my hopes up as it has been "they will be available next month" for about 8 months now.:rolleyes:

I could be wrong but I thought I heard the emitter was a tad bigger but anyway I can't wait to see some results on them as it sounds like they will have a much less wavelength shift and a considerable increase in output.;)

I cant wait till i can get my hands on some. i am dreaming of a 4W quad 635nm build.
DTR i hope you dont mind but i linked your shop for the 635nm 300mw diodes.
Hope you have good stock!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kiyoukan

I cant wait till i can get my hands on some. i am dreaming of a 4W quad 635nm build.
DTR i hope you dont mind but i linked your shop for the 635nm 300mw diodes.
Hope you have good stock!

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Certainly don't mind and yes I have a good stock currently.;)

Photos of the 500mW diode zoomed in:

Some strange marks on the chip, could be from the bonding wire machine, see better on the 4th photo, oddly this is exactly the same on each diode.

Will try and get a better photo in a bit.

Be interested to see a de canned 300mW version zoomed in.

nice photos any running tests yet?
i will try to get a better image.
Attachment 31866

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kiyoukan

nice photos any running tests yet?
i will try to get a better image.
Attachment 31866

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Interested to see if the chip has those marks too. SO you'll have to use a digital microscope.

Should be doing some tests later today or tomorrow.

here is the best photo of my 300mw diode i can do, i got 2 more uploading from my phone that i will put on here.
This is phone plus 3 lenses to get that close
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-r...0423103044.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-x...0423102609.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-G...0423103019.jpg

So the 500mw version looks to have 2x the bond wires.
So that is good news.

oh, ok. now it is clear.
andy is posting a 500mw while kiyoukan is posting a decaned 300mw

and yes, these bond wires look like good news. let's see what happens during testing

Seams that little mark is a connection going to something on the side. maybe its a thermal cutout which would explain a few interesting things about these diodes, on the other hand it could be just a manufacturing defect but funny its looking the same on every diode..

So, 4 bond wires indeed, longer die, back heat deflector, and a possible thermal cutout/esd or bad manufacturing?.

Given the 300mW was reaching 900+ mW at extremes, I think this is going to top the 1W.

In a bit am going to mount a 300 next to a 500 to do a without lens beam profile comparison.

Attachment 31867

Attachment 31868

Attachment 31869

Attachment 31870

Attachment 31871



Anyone fancy replacing that mirror.
Attachment 31872



Bugger me if that does not look like a Mitsubishi Logo.

Attachment 31873

nice photos, cant wait to see the testing.

Great work with the photos. Now lets see some power tests.:D

Kiyoukan,

Those photos are extremely significant. Finally, a meaningful difference between the 73's and the 71's. Just like the A and M series 445's, the bottleneck appears to be the bond wires and the manufacturer has realized this and in each case just added bond wires and... more power. Even the SLIGHTLY greater divergence of the 73 makes sense. The 73 is a 71 driven to increased current levels and with these multi-mode diodes this increases the divergence.

Now I know these are small dimensions, but does anyone think it would be possible to add ANOTHER bond wire? Hmmm

What is the weak link? Bond wires? Heat? COD? Has anybody tested these to death yet?

The problem with testing them to death is that unless you analyses the process of dying you will probably miss the cause and you won't learn how hard you can drive them for a reasonable life. I may be wrong, but there seems to be a shift that began with these micrographs and has been taken up by lasertack with his laser profile images and by danielbriggs with his prism images. We are looking into the physical cause of the component performance. Previously, it was primarily anecdotal, more hit or miss. These double bond wires are a revelation.

If we did preform a destructive test it should be done in a microscope with a video ( high speed if possible) record. It would be interesting to see what would happen to the diode if one of the bond wires were cut or if a jumper could be added. The emission wavelength varies at 0.2nm/C this is a good way to monitor the temperature as the current is raised. An image of the output facets before and after failure might show if this was damaged. The LOC's would go LED after failure and so there had to remain some conduction ( the bond wires could not have been blown entirely off). Do these higher power diodes go LED?

This image is not mine but one from LPF hope pullbangdead does not mind
Attachment 31881
So you can see what happens to a over driven 445nm diode without proper cooling.
Our biggest problem is temp, if it gets to hot these diodes will just "burn" apart.
With 2 pair of bond wires we can pump alot of current threw them.
It seems with my 445nm diodes they never break from broken bond wires but from just burning out the contact point like the above image.

This makes sense. The solder point will have more resistance and will be the weakest link in the conduction path, otherwise the solder would never have melted to allow assembly. More conductors, lower resistance and therefore less heat. The copper's resistance only climbs as the temperature rises leading to thermal runaway. But the diode must now be dead. Right? It can't LED now. Right?

The problem with cooling is the component that burns out is the thermally most distant component. Unless we try to run these under flowing deionized water the only solution is lower resistance.

Well even a diode like that can run just barely.
Yes mineral water or some submerged cooling might help but there are also other gases that could be filled around the diode and lens to help increase the ability for heat to spread.
So where i think our limit is thermal resistance or ability to cool that top contact point.
As long as we can keep all items below 25C there is going to be alot less degradation or damage.
That is why i want to cool the diode down to 15C in hope that the emitter contact point wont vary above 25C, but the only way to test this is going to be a thermal imaging camera.
So testing this diode or i think any diode one also needs to be able to keep the temperature records of the case and the emitter. so if lets say the case is 15C and the emitter is 30C at a given current you know that you are going to damage the diode. so you turn the current down till you get about to 24C on the emitter this would be max temp, with a 1C variation.

Seam to be going to extreams here fellas, D.I water and gas, comon. we just need to run them at a reasonable power. Not cook them to death.

First test I did yesterday I actually ran the diode with no cooling at all, it flaked out. So I quickly cut the power.

Now after it cooled, it was working again in the typical standard these diodes are becoming famous for.


Today I expect to do a stipe compare test. Just loaded with other stuff to do.

i would agree that gas filled or liquid filled might be a bit much, but the temp measurement on the bond wire contact plate on the emitter could get us some great test results as far as how much power and cooling is needed.
I would be happy with this diode doing 1W, if it can do that then its perfect.
If it can go higher fine but i just hope 1W is fine, for decent life.

Some Good news!!

Tested with no lenses to see the raw output and:

The emitter does in fact appear to be the same as the 300mW.

The divergence is larger but not by much, I did manage to get a similar beam as the 300mW using my test lenses.

So likely a shorter FL lens will be perfect just to take into account the larger divergence of the 500mW diode.

At one meter I have like a 5mm x 0.Xmm line + some considerable length wings. Pretty much the same as the 300mW.

Need a bit more time to get some shots and am also going to test a few other shorter FL lenses.

Don't get too excited yet tho, am still testing and hope to get a few photos soon.

Andy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kiyoukan

i would agree that gas filled or liquid filled might be a bit much

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Is arctic silver conductive? Would just placing a dab on the sides and placing the diode in a porperly made tight fit holder for better thermal conduction (someone mentioned this in some post) work better and allow more overdriving?

Andy,
Thanks for the good news. What lens did you use for that first test that produced the 5mm wide stripe?

kiyoukan,
The problem with the bond wire heat is that to melt off they are running at hundreds of degrees while I guarantee that the emitter is running only a few degrees above the heat sink (based on wavelength shift). Lowering the heat sink temperature a few degrees will barely impact the wire temp and the maximum safe current will rise maybe 1-2%. I was not really serious about flowing deionized water. Although it might work it would be an incredible hassle. I am serious about lowering resistance, however. If a glob of solder or a conductive strip could be added the result could be interesting. Otherwise, I agree with Andy. Just limit the 73 series to a reasonable max.

Ok, so I spent a few hours now trying different corrective options and looking more and more at the diode.

Bottom line is NOPE, the 500mW is indeed worse to correct that the 300mW.

I will try again when the corrective stuff comes from the kiyoukan BG

I assume the corrective optics will improve both diodes by the same ratio. 6:1 in both cases. What did you find? How much of a difference between the two diodes. With a given lens what kind of numbers did you see?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by planters

Andy,
Thanks for the good news. What lens did you use for that first test that produced the 5mm wide stripe?

kiyoukan,
The problem with the bond wire heat is that to melt off they are running at hundreds of degrees while I guarantee that the emitter is running only a few degrees above the heat sink (based on wavelength shift). Lowering the heat sink temperature a few degrees will barely impact the wire temp and the maximum safe current will rise maybe 1-2%. I was not really serious about flowing deionized water. Although it might work it would be an incredible hassle. I am serious about lowering resistance, however. If a glob of solder or a conductive strip could be added the result could be interesting. Otherwise, I agree with Andy. Just limit the 73 series to a reasonable max.

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I think there's a combination of some factors involved here that causes the bond wires to blow at the contact point.

The contact point itself doesn't need to be heated to hundreds of degrees for it to melt, because the wires also carry about an Amp of current while they're micrometers apart -- this would cause them to generate a considerable magnetic field on such a small surface.

If those bond wires are parallel, they'll be pulling each other together due to their magnetic fields, causing a tug and shear force on the bond wire attachment. That only needs to heat up just to the point where the connection is weakened, and the force combined with the weaker bond material will pull everything up to breaking point.

Running the diode in a modulated way (as we do in projectors) may make the situation even worse, because it also creates a fatigue stress on the attachment point, because the bond wires are effectively vibrating under their own magnetic forces.

Believe me, bond wires can go in other places as well.

chadAttachment 31936

hey chad, why does your diode have a spark gap?

;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chad

Believe me, bond wires can go in other places as well.

chadAttachment 31936

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ANYONE else......do any optical experiments with the P73-2 LD yet ??? Is this one a Photon Phog Horn ?????? Anyone try 12X Cylinderical PCV + PCX ?????

BEAM

i think the only good news we will get with this one is when someone gets it GRINed...

if someone knows a source of these diodes ill test em

Andy...DTR has'em for 110 USD.....I was just wondering if we have any " Early Adaptors " which have " Blazed a Trail " yet ???? Or....has Mitsui buggered it up ??? More bond wires good...a MUCH larger emitter !!! NOT good !! Things are toooo quite !!! Tension is building !!! See pic of the P73-2 Phog Horn !!! HAHA....BEAM

110.... fook me

who would pay 110 usd for a diode with no spec sheet?

I wonder why andy and dtr are keeping
Quiet on just how bad they are ?
Surely cant be any worse than a regular
C mount 635nm

See attached spec sheet of the P73-2...Is this what you are looking for ??? Via the fine work of Andy F and Mr.Briggs....the emitter has ..."been weighed, been measured, and has been found wanting" haha See GRIN Pic !!! BEAM

sorry im getting confused with another diode just ignore me completely

Andy...I could ignore you....but never your fine work here on PL.....BUT....I must follow with a little " BEAM" humor !!!!!>:)>:)>:)

I must update my yahoo status to Currently Grinning.

-sorry, family matters occuring now-just flew back in from florida-- what's going on ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by andy_con

110.... fook me

who would pay 110 usd for a diode with no spec sheet?

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Yep there is a datasheet. It is listed on my page.
https://sites.google.com/site/dtrlpf...m-500mw-diodes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by badger1666

I wonder why andy and dtr are keeping
Quiet on just how bad they are ?
Surely cant be any worse than a regular
C mount 635nm

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I have stated that they do produce a few hundred more mW @ higher currents than the 300mW versions but they are much more stable where the 300mW drops like a stone over 800mA these stay pretty steady 1A+. I don't have any correction optics and I was hoping someone could shed some light on whether some of the techniques that have been used with the 300mW version will work well with these but I have not gotten any good feedback other than the 500's do have a slightly larger emitter. So I have not been keeping quite. I shared the little info I had.:beer:

....................

I think until the Kiyoukan correction optics GB is fulfilled, or other correction optics are picked up by the experimenters, this topic will just be conjecture.

Fingers crossed we get some progress on that GB this week, as was suggested.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by andyf97

I must update my yahoo status to Currently Grinning.

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that's good enough for me andy :)

needless to say, keep us posted please!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by andyf97

I must update my yahoo status to Currently Grinning.

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Andy.....Mmmmm????? While I respect that you have..more than once ...."lead the pack " on optical directions to pursue concerning the Mitsui Multi-Mode Red Devils from Hell......it would sure be good to ante up a few more details !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mmmmmm ??? Yikes !!! I GRIN when I break wind !!!! BEAM

Just curious, Andy.. why would a grin lens be better than, say, Dave's 2mm lens? An aspheric collimator and a gradient indexer have different properties, yes, but why do you prefer the latter? Focal length? Please enlighten us .. :] Thx !
-PS- Have you done experimenting and have some astounding results?? (We all hope ) ?? :D

I just could NOT resist !!!!As Andy is English.....he will appreciate the term..." Puff a Dart " !!!!! BEAM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CDBEAM

I just could NOT resist !!!!As Andy is English.....he will appreciate the term..." Puff a Dart " !!!!! BEAM

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You yanks!!!, you do not know that we are not English, we are British and speak English.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CDBEAM

Andy.....Mmmmm????? While I respect that you have..more than once ...."lead the pack " on optical directions to pursue concerning the Mitsui Multi-Mode Red Devils from Hell......it would sure be good to ante up a few more details !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mmmmmm ??? Yikes !!! I GRIN when I break wind !!!! BEAM

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Hardly call it leading, just being involved is more correct.

Am I coming up with a solution? Well I am working on something, working on a few things the same time and waiting for some deliveries that should open up some doors for the 500mW.

I do indeed have a beautiful beam from the 300mW version but dont ask for photos because am working now on 9mm 445's for another project.

Be interesting to see what happens with The GB for the 300mW, they wont do much for the 500 so no point counting on those to do it.

@Steve, am too busy to go into technical details right now.

Yes....well ...The designation " English" does NOT mean "British" !!! I was bemused by this conundrum....and therefore consulted with the head Linguist at Terrawatt Labs...Yes...." Professor Pufindart" !!!

He sez...Check out this website !!! http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?BritishVsEnglish

So...to address someone from the UK as " English"....may cheese them off ??? Yikes...live and learn !!

BEAM

Yep us seppos r really ignoranuses innit .. ;]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CDBEAM

Yes....well ...The designation " English" does NOT mean "British" !!! I was bemused by this conundrum....and therefore consulted with the head Linguist at Terrawatt Labs...Yes...." Professor Pufindart" !!!

He sez...Check out this website !!! http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?BritishVsEnglish

So...to address someone from the UK as " English"....may cheese them off ??? Yikes...live and learn !!

BEAM

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Hahaha, nice. Its actually quite funny when people say to me in Romania " Am I English and I always reply NO, I am British ".

You are American, do you write "I speak American or English", ah!!! you buggers stole our language or did we steel yours, that is a question :))). That would make historical interesting reading.

photonlanguageicon.

Anyway. that was a little fun to read this morning.