Laser Shows in clubs and bars question Noob

A friend of mine that is a club owner wants to purchase a 1w projector for his club. He's looking at one of the x-laser models. I've informed him that he has to have somebody at the bar monitor the E-stop if he decides to purchase the projector. He wanted to know if there was a way around this if he mounts it into the club and doesn't ever move it. I told him that I didn't think so but there might be a way we could run the E-stop into the bar area to have a trained bar tender monitor the lasers. Am I correct in stating this or does a single person have to be assigned wih this role that is not also pouring drinks?

I am sure others will chime in here re US regulations etc etc.

But I will say this.

Having a bar tender monitor the show and activate the E-Stop is a joke and will never be acceptable...

Have said that, let me say this.

Pour drinks or operate/monitor the laser show. Choose one. I am yet to see someone keep both eyes on the laser show while pouring a Vodka Martini, shaken not stirred.

Not just that but if this is a "club" without a lighting guy it is going to suck any way. The only other option is running it in free ball all night long.
Nothing like a little venue with a bartender trying to be a dance club loaded with spin and puke sound activated crap convulsing and twitching for hours on end.

He would be better off and put that money toward a lighting designer to come and make the place look good.
BTDT
chad

That's what I figured.. Just wanted to check. He wants a racecar without the driver.

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Originally Posted by chad

Nothing like a little venue with a bartender trying to be a dance club loaded with spin and puke sound activated crap convulsing and twitching for hours on end.

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Nice. Can I use that in my signature? *retardo

Dan at X-Laser is a regular participant on the forum.
You might want to PM him with the question directly - I have a feeling he would like to chime in since it potentially involves one of their products...

For obvious reasons the FDA is concerned about having someone both qualified and present to attend to the laser. What other sorts of things this person can be doing is rather flexible... but I would not expect that a bar tender would qualify. One would have to assume that he/she would have to leave periodically to grab things, bus tables, etc. and even when there would be much more involved with his 'real' job. The case CAN be made, and perhaps FDA might agree if it were thought through rather well - but I doubt it. I'm also with Chad, a laser show without a lighting guy would be uninspired at best in addition to the safety considerations.

You could try Pangolin PASS but its not cheap.

It does nevertheless monitor everything with redundancy and never allows unsafe beams to escape, even to the point of monitoring scan speeds. It does work via ILDA though so sound to light is pretty much out although you could perhaps run something like QS and use VLJ. That would just require occasional user attention to change pages to give more variety.

Whether or not you'd need an E stop as well, I'm not sure as the PASS system is pretty much comprehensive in its protection and much faster to react that even a dedicated laser operator. Over to the US experts on that one and possibly Pangolin.

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Originally Posted by White-Light

You could try Pangolin PASS but its not cheap.

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PASS is designed for audience-scanning projectors, and is meant to shut down the projector if the scanners stop moving. But even with PASS, you still need a trained operator present, because you could have a mirror fall off the galvo shaft, yielding a static beam even though the scanner would still be moving.

Despite this, actual crowd scanning is very rare here in the US. In nearly all US installations, you use a rigid beam mask to block off parts of the projector aperture so that beams can only exit in directions that are safe. (That is, into areas where there are no people, like the ceiling.) Thus there is no need for a scan-fail device like PASS. But even then, you still need a trained operator present to account for variables like audience unruliness (someone climbs up on a table) or mechanical failure of the projector support system.

Sure, you could put tilt-switches in the projector to detect any shift in the mounting, and you could install some kind of infra-red sensing system in the venue to detect an audience member rising up above the 3 meter point, but getting either one approved by the CDRH would be a real challenge. Then too, what is your insurance company going to say if you ever do end up with a claim and your only defense is "Well, we didn't have an operator present, but we thought these additional safety interlocks would be enough..."

Finally, there is the issue of quality. I don't remember who said it, but someone here used to say that "Lasers aren't cake. Lasers are the icing on the cake. Sound and lights - that's the cake!" This is so true in the bar/nightclub environment. Lasers can get old very quickly, even with a trained operator running them. The places that use lasers successfully use them sparingly, and always have an experienced laserist at the controls.

If you know your equipment, your patrons, and your music, you can use laser projectors to create awesome effects. But if you're inexperienced, you just have a bunch of beams flying around randomly, and that gets old fast. Having a pair of projectors sitting on a truss running the same old patterns night after night in "spaz and flail mode" is a sure way to bore your audience. You'd be better off not having the lasers at all.

That's my $.02 anyway.

Adam

Us laws.......Wow!

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Originally Posted by buffo

PASS is designed for audience-scanning projectors, and is meant to shut down the projector if the scanners stop moving. But even with PASS, you still need a trained operator present, because you could have a mirror fall off the galvo shaft, yielding a static beam even though the scanner would still be moving.

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It's a bit more advanced than that Adam as I'm sure you know. It monitors scanner velocity to check for scans that are too slow, input signal and a whole host of other elements with double redundancy and then applies momentary power reductions to alleviate the problem so the patterns aren't visually affected unless of course its a situation that's totally impossible to protect from with momentary application or if with power still applied in which case it applies total shut off for the duration of the dangerous event. You can also custom adjust the safety horizon. At least that's my understanding.

I also understand its an almost guaranteed way of getting an audience scanning variance in the US as a projector with PASS fitted has never been refused.

That said you are entirely right, it can't guard against a mirror separating unless there's some kind of feedback from the galvos as a result and a physical beam block is the best way of preventing beams entering the audience area.

Lets face it, if a mirror comes off a galvo shaft, the last place the beam is going end up is out the front of the projector.
As far as failures go, thats a pretty safe one.