I just saw this: http://www.facebook.com/ScannerMax?n...age_fan_invite
Speculating time I'd say
Website: http://www.scannermax.com/index.html
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I just saw this: http://www.facebook.com/ScannerMax?n...age_fan_invite
Speculating time I'd say
Website: http://www.scannermax.com/index.html
Very noice! , Me Like! ;)
Yawn, Just Marketing speak.. Building hype. Just show me a datasheet and a test video, my boss wont pay for a trip to Kali...
I buy things based on performance, not social marketing drool...
Love the people on that page who have not seen the specs and price and are already convinced they need new galvos.
Steve
Hey... this has been a long time coming, Steve. If this is "actually" finally a reality that Pango has scanners to look at, and they are truly going to be on display in a few short weeks, it's still cause for a little excitement, spec sheet or not. There are a number of people, myself included that have held off on any galvo purchase until we can actually set eyes on these. :)
No, it's quite a bit more than that. Granted, you weren't at SELEM in 2012, so you missed Bill's presentation on these units, but I figured you would have heard about them by now from all the chatter from the rest of us who were in attendance. Rest assured that they are very real, and will offer roughly a 30% improvement in speed over the current state of the art.Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedgas
Bill told us that they would be demoing these scanners in February, 2013, and that they had already purchased enough key components to assemble several thousand units. So this is not some pipe-dream. It's a real product, and people at Photonix West will be able to put their hands on them. My guess is that they'll be ready to take orders very soon thereafter.
As Brad already mentioned, the performance of these scanners has already been discussed in considerable detail, and several people (myself included) have been holding off on buying any scanners until these units are released.Quote:
Love the people on that page who have not seen the specs and price and are already convinced they need new galvos.
It's a shame you missed SELEM last year Steve. There were several cool things you would have loved to see...
Adam
All of this ^Quote:
Originally Posted by buffo
Mixedgas you should maybe inform at various sources before just calling it a hype.
Hypining something and then presenting something that does not hold up to the hype is not wise and pangolin hasn't done that as of yet.
I have not bought new galvo's for the reason I knew this was coming soon.
There's a website....
I've heard all sorts of rumors. From 60K to 125K. Only price I heard was 100$.
Guess we'll see in the morning!
all products are hype until they hit the market and are independently verified.
Quote:
Originally Posted by masterpj
Steve. Back to the basement.....I'm have it on good knowledge your going to love these. Can't tell yea but wow! I'm getting in line for a pair. Think lasermame full speed no flicker.
That's the actuator (VRAD-1510) website (and $99 price). These are not the XY scanners & they won't be $100...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mlenox
I figured they wouldn't be that cheap.
A guess....$2599.00 a pair sans supplies.
100K at what angle? What load?
I saw 60K scanning in 199X or early 2000s by 6800s with a modified Turbotrack Amp. By no Less then one W.R. Benner at a conference in Canada. A Quadmod with modified code was running TWO Showtime shows at the same time side by side on ONE pair, and nearly flicker free. You could send your amps down to Florida for the mod, for a fee. We could also discuss the mythical 100K water cooled 6800s.
So I could turn this around and say what took so long to get another 20K or 40K?
I still hate "Coming Soon" marketing.
----------
As for missing SELEM, regretable but unavoidable. However the exigencies of the university prevail.
Steve
I too have been eagerly awaiting these, but I am not too hopeful re the production date. The marketing hype has nothing to do with my doubts just P's history of missing anticipated deadlines. There is no black magic here as they are compact with low inertia and use a lot'a watts. I am convinced based on the presentation in Aug. that they will be very good. The big question is when and the bigger question is how much.
Why?Quote:
A guess....$2599.00 a pair sans supplies.
Are we up to 60 volts per rail yet? 2500$ is a tad more then the typical pricing for a really high end galvo pair. Makes for a good estimate.
Steve
I'm interested in this (the mod and mythical 100k 6800s).Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedgas
Could you hit me up more info about this?
I got the feeling that they would be cheaper than the current top end scanners, from the last round of Bill's discussions.
Pj, for your info; There are quite a few guys with CT and GS scanners who have been running much higher speeds for many years. Lobo in germany have the fastest scanners I saw to date, I saw them live and those were if I remember General scanning G124s running much faster than any of my CT6210HPs, and was about 7 years ago.
All our scanners seam to be capable to go much faster if using the right drivers.
I buy CT or Eye magic, because these are field proven for at least 10 years.
Let's see some proof, photos or any other evidence of these new space age things that were impossible for anyone else to make.
Pj, this thread smells of marketing spam, maybe it was better to put it in the general info threads.
Yes. Last February at a LEM with Bill when we all talked at length about these, the anticipated pricepoint was going to fall between mid range scanners such as DT's and high end such as the CT6215's. Better and more affordable was the plan. That was a year ago so, I don't know if that's changed but, naturally you want to hit the right pricepoint where you'll sell a bunch. I'm sure anybody could, with enough R&D make better scanners than Cambridge but, if they're $5000 a set, who gives a damn?Quote:
Originally Posted by norty303
Agreed, but CT are not that expensive. Maybe just out of the reach of the local DJ which exists are a hell of a lot of now with pretty powerful Lasers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradfo69
I think anyone who enters the scanner market now will have to be just a little over the price of DT40s to attract the hobby market because it is doubtful any serious companies will risk new scanners on any serious show for a few years.
Facts are CT and EMS DO have a good track record for the pro market already and EMS are not much more expensive than DTPro.
Dragon tiger do indeed have a good track record for the hobby market and some say they are too expensive.
So any new ones need to cost around 600 dollars or to be 200k and expensive. There is no middle place.
Bill stated that a typical CN scanner, directly from the manufacturer, costs on the order of $10 and was clear that he was planning to the hit both the performance as well as the price axis at the same time. I don't think it is just wishful thinking that these will be affordable. The general consensus from the audience was that "I can't wait" not "Oh wouldn't it be nice" and Bill encouraged this. But, he did not give any specifics that you could rely on to estimate a price other than their commitment to supply thousands of these with their stockpile of components. They can't be planning to market to only LOBO and at the same time there is no profit competing with CN and so tween EM and CT is a logical guess, but a broad range.
I totally agree with Andy. Most people use the word expencive and it gives the impression that is too much for what they get. But when looking at Eyemagics for example its not expencive but just allot of money. If you want something reliable and service then it will cost you. If you can,t afford it now save money now by doing lasershows with DT40,s and buy eyemagics later. My opinion is: want to drive a mercedes? stop wyining and start saving. ;)
I totally agree with Andy. Most people use the word expencive and it gives the impression that is too much for what they get. But when looking at Eyemagics for example its not expencive but just allot of money. If you want something reliable and service then it will cost you. If you can,t afford it now save money now by doing lasershows with DT40,s and buy eyemagics later. My opinion is: want to drive a mercedes? stop wyining and start saving. ;)
Also it depends on what level of quality you want or need. If you do lasershows at a schoolparty for 50 euro,s and free drinks stick with something cheap. But if you start thinking doing things professionally you can step in with a lower quality and then upgrade after a while. That is called investing. Most companies do it like this. Hobby and having a company are 2 different things ;)
Why am I skeptic? First let me take care of PJ's question:
Once upon a time, a very skilled engineer built a G120 amp with 60 volt rails and some exquisite protection circuitry. That was in the late 90s. ~ 50K with G120s.
Mr Inatsugu has a ILDA Fenning award for such skill.
Rumors of a certain very big show company having water cooled 100K 6800s abounded after a Still Image of a graphic was published on the ILDA magazine's front cover in the late 90s or early 2000s. We were assured the shot was a single scan head. The picture is marvelous, the point count must be huge. It must have been done using cooled galvos, better then average amps, and software optimization. I later bought a used projector made by that company which confirmed much of that. The fan cooled scan head mount pointed to very high speed with high reliability. The amps were not a stock amp, had quite a bit of extra feedback loops and refinements . I had to sell the amps before I could test them. The claim was perhaps best restated at maybe 100K small angle.
That extra cooling reduces the chance of the old coil temperature calculator circuit kicking in at wide angles. Water cooling would have really helped with that. So I now believe the claim really should have been 60-70K scanning with extreme wide angle.
Getting to the teething problems:
The problem with the Asian galvos used to be how the magnet was bonded to the stator. This improvement gets rid of heat. CT has a very nice technique for doing that.
CT has ceramic bearings. How many low cost galvos have ceramic bearings? That is one key to a very long life.
During the cold war, and I'm sure until recently, it was a ITAR violation to sell such bearing manufacturing technology to the Chinese
I'm sure they make them now.
--------------------
Why you buy quality:
If my Eye Magics die, they go for a rebuild and come back with the latest magnet upgrades, actually quite faster. More then one facility can do the repair. It has happened exactly once, when the nickle plating flaked off one of the magnets. I grabbed the spare and swapped it in one minute. I did not have to retune the amp. That was a very early generation Eye Magic, and that plating problem was fixed long ago. I can still send that 5 year old pair in for a repair. They do not have bearings, they have a sintered bronze, self oiling, bushing. Everybody scoffed at that bushing at first. But it is very reliable and the scanners have a beautiful response.
I really doubt I could swap part of a 150$ pair out and get the same level of results without retuning.
Sometimes you need quality over quantity. Touring is one of those places. A Gaga type's manager is not going to like it if her lasers quit.
Unexpected failures show up in first Gen scanners of any brand. This is why I want to really evaluate a greater then 100K pair before I spend the money.
Problems I can remember:
Plating problems occur often on scanner magnets, the first Gen Catweazles absolutely shredded their magnets when the plating cracked.
Mine did, so did every other first gen pair I'm aware of. That got into the jeweled (Ruby) bearing and the shaft was torn up.
If its not plating problems, its bearing problems.
Case one, Early death of the then brand new CT6800s with plain bearings. Hence the 6800HP with ceramic.
Case two:
My first and last set of DTs have the wrong lubricant in the bearings. It gets stiff over time.
I had to work them loose with pliars when they sat on the shelf. Finally the bearing froze and the scanner is toast. The scanner is on my bench at home.
One company found out the hard way that some dielectric mirrors leak red as the angle changes. Being a good company, they replaced quite a few mirrors for free.
-----------------------
Let me explain the possible claim of the 100K G124. This comes in two parts.
The G124 is not the fastest open loop at 1200 Hz resonance. The G603 family was faster, at ~2400 Hz first resonance, but the angle is very small, so demand was low, and sales were poor. I had a dead 6xx, once. You would not believe who offered to buy it, but you could possibly guess. Fastest I've seen out of a G124 is ~14K with special tweeked amps. So how did they come up with that number? See below.
In the G124's defense. You can drive the snot out of a G124, and they are far tougher then a G120. The longer torsion bar is magical. I still have a pile of G124s, with the Accel 124 Amps, and they are not going anywhere. Because if I need a good pair of scanners in 2040, they will still be working. I will still find the needed op-amps and Darlington transistors on whatever is the Ebay of the day.
You get what you pay for, unless there is a major shift in the technology paradox.
Sometimes the claim is marketing speak:
12K x 12K x 12K x 12K x 12K = Greater then 250,000K Scanning. That was one Geman claim that it took us a while to figure out. X * Y * R * G * B with G120 galvo color = ~ 250K PPS, if you count RGB and both scanners in the equation.
I agree with Andy!
"Mercedes A Number 1" Quote from the movie The Killing Fields
So show me the numbers, and state the scan angle please.
Steve
I strongly suspect, with no inside info, that Pangolin scanners will come in at or just below CT's in price especially if the performance rumours prove true.
As for Pangolin's claims, remember Bill Benner was a design consultant during the design of 60K CT's: http://www.pangolin.com/laserists%20...eakthrough.pdf
I'd also be very surprised if the angle was ridiculously small given the conversation about Eye Magic and 60K scanning a while ago.
The proof of the pudding is going to be in the eating of course. However, given the kitchen its coming out, the speciality chef and the quality of materials already mentioned in the other thread before, I'd be very surprised if it was spotted dick instead of millionaire's pudding!
Andy I've seen those Lobo scanners actually at prolight and sound.Quote:
Originally Posted by andyf97
Yes they are capable of incredibly high speeds, but I also heard their livespan is really short and their price is immense (Just like 99% of lobo's pricing).
Just a little update that I see so far
Attachment 36845
Cheers!
Wow, Let there be beams and plenty of them.. Congrats and Best Wishes on the Saturn 5 launch pad...
Mark
Looking good so far. Unusual block shape.
I wonder aesthetically if the top of the block should have the edges chamfered to match the sides or maybe curves all round?
Unusual????? Have you never seen CT6215's?????Quote:
Originally Posted by White-Light
Not in the flesh, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Insanity
Edit: Looked them up, they're very similar.
bwahhahahahahahahahaha :dQuote:
Originally Posted by insanity
Finally, a scanner mount with decent heatsinking that I did not have to make in a machine shop. Or scrap from a LFI system.
I get the feeling those puppies will run hot.
Steve
Nothing unusual about that block, we use some similar that can be reversed for left or right beam entry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by White-Light
ct6215 mount:
Attachment 36846
It will be nice to hear an actual price and see the size of the drivers. My biggest bitch on the 6215 is the size of the heatsinks needed for the drivers. Yea the drivers are small but they need massive heatsinking same with the scanners. I want a complete scanner set with drivers that does a solid 45kps (so it runs 30kps well) that fits into a 5-6" square no higher than about 3-4 inches that requires no additional heatsinking or any fans at all. Then combine that with all solid state lasers drivers and supplies so the whole thing is 12"x12" by 6" high cube weighing just a few pounds doing say 250-500mw of balanced whitelight with perfect pcaom modulation like performance.
This should be possible now today.
Scanners about $2500.00
Lasers and optics $1000.00
Case and supplies and all $500.00
4k cost 30kps perfect modulation and balanced 250mw color mix weighing less than 5 lbs in 1'x1'x 0.5' box all varianced and ready to go. Oh and a beam at 20' feet out tha tis no more than 5mm wide with perfect over lapping beams
Sounds like my old Ar/He combination except for the size and weight and power and noise. So Yes bring me back my old setup quality but in solid state modern form factor. I'm done chasing power now I want quality.....again.
The photograph is nice, but the performance is unknown. Along with the model @ the booth do they provide any specs? Better yet a demo of it operating? Is Cambridge there? And Nutfield?
There has been a long anticipation for this release and Pangolin has been very quiet about these scanners since Bill stated @ SELEM in August that "they have to be ready by P. West". What I would be disappointed to hear is that there have been some setbacks and the physical motors are displayed in the mount, but the delivery and cost of an operational system is indefinite. What are they saying?
If we take the performance graph in the spec PDF on their website at face value (which we won't, but for sake of inquiry let's take those values as stated for a moment), what does that translate to in terms of Kpps for the 8 degree ILDA pattern? Can we fill in the blank: "these are ____Kpps scanners."
Tribble,
OK, If the data is accurate then these may be the BEST SCANNERS AVAILABLE ANYWHERE. I didn't notice that the invitation had a link to the web site which gives a spec sheet. Thanks.
Look at the Cambridge website and run through the different motors available. If you look at rotor inertia and torque constant these are right up there with the best Cambridge has to offer, but then look at the resistance/inductance. These are as low as or lower than the best. Now compare the thermal resistance and it's a lot lower than the best, so more power can be sent through these motors.
I am an advocate for ignoring kpps because kpps is the product of each of these specific properties. There is no magic. If the rotor is lighter, the magnetic force/A is greater and you can pump more A's through it then the motor is better and faster. The kpps obviously depends on mirror size, but if I remember correctly, the best scanner currently available with a typical mirror size is a true 60kpps @ 8 degrees. Then these are somewhere above that.
I am still worried, however that these are not actually ready/available with the appropriate drivers. And the cost is ????
Thanks for the leads and rationale, planters! I will try to look those numbers up and compare.
Cost is going to be an interesting equation. I guess the question really is what the market will support and what the demand for the performance level they offer is. I've been trying to figure that out but I just don't have the data. How big is the lightshow market? How big is the industrial market? Does industry need faster than they have today? How much is it worth to them? Everything I've read about the lightshow market is "you don't need faster than 30k, all the art is optimized for 30k anyway." Not that I ever necessarily bought that argument, but it will be interesting to see the spin now that Pangolin (err, subdivision thereof) is in the scanner market. ;) How long until we see "HD laser show!"?
As for availability... I guess we're just going to have to wait and see. :\
There's a photo of the Pangolin Scanner Booth on Pangolin's facebook page.
It looks like they're keeping speeds and price under lock and key for the moment. However, their advertising does seem to re-iterate the claims made in their pdf about numerous improvements in design compared to existing scanner systems. As mentioned above, there's a whole load of precise data in the pdf for the technically minded.
It also appears that you can retro fit the arms into certain existing scanner blocks. Given the shape above, I'm presuming Cambridge might be a prime candidate here.
The price is also described as affordable, which sounds promising.
http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...77734462_n.jpg
The problem with this "rule of thumb" is that the performance deteriorates substantially with scanned angle. Take for example the DT 40 Wide scanners. A large scanned angle forces the mirrors to operate at greater angles and the foreshortening of the mirror at the extreme requires a larger mirror to accommodate the same beam diameter that a narrower scanned angle can get away with. The larger(heavier to the third power) mirror also has to move faster in rotation to position the beam at any given point in the projected image. Also, some images with many discrete sharp angles will improve with faster settling times.Quote:
Everything I've read about the lightshow market is "you don't need faster than 30k,
We have been playing with mixing video (broadband DLP) with laser and the benefit of super high bandwidth(effectively 100Mpps) for the most demanding images in multiple projector shows is impressive. But, even high end projectors lack the sparkle and impact of the laser projections and so I believe there is no foreseeable limit to the advantage of much faster scanners.
Taken from the Pangolin Post newsletter this morning:
"ScannerMAX - Stronger, Cooler, Faster
Our new line of optical scanners and rotary actuator devices. We plan on showcasing the first renditions of these at the 2013 Photonics West Show."
The words "first renditions" leads me to think we're still waiting awhile. :(
I suspect the drivers. We have heard little about the design and the innovations if any in this component. Also, if this is true then any opinion about the system performance should wait because to see outstanding speed with these motors the drivers will require well above average current levels, speed and thermal management.
Whatever specs they give may be based on large lab style drivers. To be fair we need some real information from Pangolin. It is a little frustrating speculating around the edges based on hints and allegations.
So, come on Bill. We are all enthusiastic and support this project. It has been 6 months since you presented the progress you had made and your plans to come to market.
Like I said I want to see smaller cooler 45kps scanners rather than quick bigger hotter ones. There is almost no content above 60kps. and for beams 12k is plenty. 45kps guarrentees excellent 30kps rendition
I think the big deal with faster scanners, as planters has already said, is the ability to scan the existing patterns larger.
No, you probably don't need to up your scan rate to silly rates, but it sure would be handy for some folk to display large complex animations without having to have the projector a mile away.
Faster speeds mean that you can scan wider at a given speed. That to me is more important than absolute scanner speed at 8 deg.
I don't like cartoon laser stuff. So animation graphics performance isn't that important to me. Big scan angles are, and the faster the better.
chad
edit: didn't see norty's post.... I agree.
That's extremely important to me and one of the reasons I personally am anxious to see these. I do rear screen projection through scrim of fairly complex graphics and abstracts and I have about 12 feet to work with behind the scrim. The bigger I can get the image the better as the audience is going to start seating about 40 feet away from the scrim. Getting the projection zone larger than about 8 feet in diameter is kinda important. Especially when the back of the audience may be 80 feet away.Quote:
Originally Posted by norty303
Does somebody have a clue why there are no class D scanner amps ?
Afaik all scan amps are AB-ish. Is there a particular reason why this inefficient topology is chosen ?
Or is it just that designing a good galvo driver is hard, designing a good class D amp is harder, designing a class D scanamp is hardest ?
Another advantage of wider angle is that the inherent divergence of the lasers means that to reduce the scan angle to speed up the scanners means that the projector has to be further from the target. And especially for large graphics the lines will broaden and the colors will have more time to miss-align.
Also keep in mind that the nature of the graphics that we are currently familiar with are VERY stylized and this is due probably in large part to the limitations in the scanners. It certainly doesn't originate as a legacy from AOMs and ion lasers. In Boston we were projecting laser graphics flying through 3d Mandelbrot structures. Very neat! And what about multiple projectors? Anyone who has projected a multiple timeline show from one overloaded, flickering projector knows how much better the show looks when displayed by two or more cooperating projectors. But, if a very fast scanner allowed one projector to do the work of two then aside from the limitation on maximum brightness this might save a lot of money and space and transport etc.