Club show in NY, audience scanning info

Hello everyone

i have my 1W RGB that i am bringing to a club in a few weeks, dance floor is 65 foot long, x 32feet large.I would say about 300 ppl will attend the party. I am planning to put the laser over the head of the dj and my plan was also to do a bit of audience scanning.

I am playing with it in my house now in a room that is 26x26 feet and i watched the laser in action putting myself as i was the audience(i was wearing sunglasses just as precaution) and the lights didn't bother my eyes at all.

Now, i start reading about the safety measures that need to be take and the potential risk of the lasers. but one thing that i am reading and is really warning me is this statement from FDA :

FDA should be notified in
writing of all shows at least 1
month in advance. When this
is not possible bcause of last
minute scheduling, FDA
should be notified by tele-
phone as soon as possible and
then a written confirmation
should be sent to FDA.
Anyone who operates laser
light shows without an approv-
ed FDA variance or who other-
wise violates the FDA laser safe-
ty standard may be subject to a
court injunction andlor civil
penalties (fines up to $300,000)
as provided for in Section 360C
of the Radiation Control for
Health and Safety Act. When
FDA becomes aware of a par-
ticular laser show that is
operated in violation of the law
or otherwise in an irresponsible
fashion, FDA will notify the
manufacturer or operator and
require corrective action. If the
problem is serious, FDA will
also notify the State and local
authorities and facility
managers who can take addi-
tional, immediate legal steps to
halt a hazardous show.

Also i am reading around website and forum(but didn't find any official documents from any authorities ) that audience scanning in the US is completely illegal... is this true?

Thank you
Gianluca

Few Things- (just facts, im *NOT* trying to sound like a dick)

1) You need to have a variance to perform crowd scanning. I am assuming you do not.
2) You need to have a variance and certified Laser system to use in public in the USA. I am assuming you do not.
3) Crowd scanning in the USA is *NOT* illegal. It is just very difficult to perform within regulated safety parameters and even more difficult to gain approval to do so.
4) To use Laser(s) in New York, you need to have a Class B operators license per code rule 50 of the NYS dept of Labor. I am assuming you do not.
5) To use Lasers(s) in New York you need to have said Lasers registered with the NYS dept of Labor ($600 per Laser per every 3 years). I am assuming you do not.

These are just a few of the "legalities" of your inquiry. If you have more questions, feel free to ask and/or contact me privately.

-Marc

" 15 characters"

Just to add to what's been said above:

1. Sunglasses won't protect your eyes against laser light. They're primarily designed to filter out UV not visible light wavelength and in any case even if broad spectrum, they lack the necessary OD (optical density) for a Class IV laser. If anything they could even make the situation worse by dilating your pupils wider and thus letting in even more light.

2. The fact that the laser didn't bother your eyes means nothing. There are no pain sensors in the retina of the eye so you never feel if damage is being done. Equally the brain can compensate for damage that is done. Its only when you happen across a certain set of circumstances such as looking at a monochromatic background that you might suddenly notice spots in your vision (unless of course the damage is so severe as to affect your eyesight to the point where the brain doesn't compensate it ordinary circumstances.

To audience scan safely you need a lot of very very expensive test equipment and a lot of knowledge to use it.

Then of course in the USA, you also need all of the permits.

If you don't know how to do it safely and legally then in a nutshell don't. It could cost you dearly both in federal fines and in compensation claims.

If I ever need a reminder about safety I look at this:

http://imageshack.us/a/img860/4291/laserdamage.jpg


Those burns are what my 2.1 W laser did to 18mm chip board in between 1-2 seconds exposure on those points from a static non modulated beam. Some are deep enough to actually feel craters in the surface of the wood, they're not just surface burns.

:confused2:OMG

Well, first of all thank you guys!

I bought the laser just to add some some effects to the venue where i usually promote events and actually the guy who sold it to me recommended me to buy 2 of them ( i luckily bought only one)

I didn't read anything before because i am fully aware that a laser could be harmful but i had no idea that even a 1W could be harmful in a club that can host 300+ppl. I also didn't read anything because i know ppl who use laser 3x that power in clubs not really bigger then the one where i do my events.

You guys are opening me a new world now....

Can i still use it without doing audience scanning though? Do i need license also for that?

Thank you
G

Quote:

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To audience scan safely you need a lot of very very expensive test equipment

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Aside from this part, I would agree with most things that have been said.

Although I guess if you are using a cheap Chinese projector, even the parts to make a pulse meter might be considered expensive.

The most expensive part in all of this is the knowledge. You will need to invest a LOT of time reading, researching and asking questions, and probably some money in getting trained/certified too.

Quote:

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Can i still use it without doing audience scanning though? Do i need license also for that?

---

I'm not in the US, but as far asI understand it you need a show variance and the projector needs a product variance before you can use it at an event.
In NY (as Karl has already mentioned) you need to jump through a few more hoops too.

Yes, what Norty said is correct. In the US, you as the operator have to have a show variance obtainable from the CDRH (dividion of the FDA) and, your projector itself needs to have a product variance, meaning that they have approved it for use with an audience. (Not audience scanning... just in public.) You may use your projector in the comfort of your own home but, once you take it out in public, you ARE opening yourself up to a lot of expensive potential legal and safety issues. Yes, people do risk it and yes, people do get their equipment confiscated and receive fines, etc. And, you are in a much more "laser aware" state with being in New York. Ignorance of the laws doesn't hold up in court or, mean that fines don't occur.

Sorry. Nobody is trying to be a dick here. Just trying to make you aware of the realities and what you need to do. If it's something you want to pursue, this is a great bunch of people to help you reach that goal. It's just not an overnight process.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bradfo69

Yes, what Norty said is correct. In the US, you as the operator have to have a show variance obtainable from the CDRH (dividion of the FDA) and, your projector itself needs to have a product variance, meaning that they have approved it for use with an audience. (Not audience scanning... just in public.) You may use your projector in the comfort of your own home but, once you take it out in public, you ARE opening yourself up to a lot of expensive potential legal and safety issues. Yes, people do risk it and yes, people do get their equipment confiscated and receive fines, etc. And, you are in a much more "laser aware" state with being in New York. Ignorance of the laws doesn't hold up in court or, mean that fines don't occur.

Sorry. Nobody is trying to be a dick here. Just trying to make you aware of the realities and what you need to do. If it's something you want to pursue, this is a great bunch of people to help you reach that goal. It's just not an overnight process.

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I understand, i absolutely do not think that u guys are trying to be dick and i appreciate everything that you are saying to me, again thank you for warning me about all of these issues.

It just sounds a little bit too much..... there are hundreds of people in NY who rent lasers and i am not talking about random people found on craiglist. I am talking about shops, lights rental shop that gives lasers even without someone that can control it. On craigslist is plenty of guys that offers lasershows for club night, weddings and all kind of parties.... i am wondering if all of them have their variances and are paying the 600$ each 3 years for having it.

Honestly i don't think that 1 of the people that i know that is doing this is even aware of all those law and regulations...maybe...like me...they always thought that they are carrying around just a light.

A good start to doing it 'by the book' IMO would be to attend SELEM in Newton NC this Aug- 15 to 18(I added a day so you can be there to help do the set-up)== On the
Monday after you can take the Laser Safety Officer course(~$400+) it isheld at the same hotel where most of us stay- at the end of the course there is an open=book(PCs are OK) exam- which if you don't do a lot of homework in advance you will fail= you can take it again later(for free) but it makes more sense to know enough to pass it the first time. The above posts will give you a place to start that homework-- At SELEM there will be some great forum members who can offer advice but you REALLY need to know quite a bit BEFORE the event--

Passing the course will not make you a varianced operator but it is a good start IMO. Some try to get jobs with existing Lasershow Companies-- but I think you may discover that doing your own shows is very difficult and not at all like one imagines.
The older members here may remember 'Tuttor Turtle' cartoons on the Rocky and Bullwinkle show-- the post by Laser Wizardry jogged my memories- TTurtle would ask Mr.Wizard to make him something like a Lasershow operator once the saw how things really were he would cry out "''HELP ME Mr Wizard I don't want to be a Lasershow Operator" Then the Wizard would bring TT back... ==

To do what the posters above have done takes a LOT of dedication- and deep pockets. If you ignore the advice given and get into trouble , the fact that many others are doing the same will be no defense at all. GOOD LUCK--

hak

" 15 characters"

That picture is really scary.
Has anyone here looked closely at the picture and seen the beam structure?
The burn pattern and the mode structure?
There are multiple frequencies that are dangerous and I'm guessing this is an imported laser.
It's certainly not anything that's been actually produced in the UK or US.
If someone claims it is they should provide proof they or someone else hasn't modified it?

Karl, that video on Epic Lasers web site is probably one of the most disturbing I've seen. Yeah. I know we always talk about how the camera picks things up differently and "yadda, yadda". We often make excuses and say perhaps it was different live but, I can't possibly imagine that was in any way safe. I've seen their web site before and think they've even been discussed here but, that's the first time I've seen that video and, I feel suddenly passionate about seeing what we can do to go after them. Any suggestions? I don't even think sitting in the balcony at SELEM is as bad as what is being demonstrated in that video.

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...ht=Epic+lasers

Found it and read it again. I'll happily write to someone or call someone. There is just no excuse for that.

" 15 characters"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laser Wizardry

...There is a character here in Phoenix...Sooner or later the regulatory agencies, ...will catch up to him..

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Too-bad Cassandra left.. I actually had managed to get them directly on her 'radar'.. She said she 'contacted them 2x, but did not get a reply'.. So, she had-planned to 'run it up, higher', but then, apparently, left / transferred, or (???) Anyhoo, yes, 'Lauren' is aware of them / that video.. Hope she, too, will find it 'holy....???!!'-offensive, and take some action... Guy needs a major Clue x brick.. We'll see.. :cool:

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Hi Gianluca -

Welcome to PL.. :cool: but.. I have to strongly-echo what has been said in this thread - Don't do it. If for no-other reason - (...and, I will also echo the other 'not to be a dick or anything's, but...). We, as other 'now-aware' NYS Class B Lic. Ops, would have to report any illegal-shows we become aware-of, in NYS - especially, those with audience-scanning - even if you feel it's 'safe'...

..Reason-being, it's our obligation, under our Licenses, to do-so.. No, we're not 'laser-police', but.. just as you would 'take action' to-prevent someone from hurting someone else,ie: if you saw something about to go down, etc, likewise, we've got to at least *try* and 'educate', and, failing-that, report... And, yes - the new 'enforcement guy', is much more responsive / accessible, than those in the past..

..Your best-bet?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VJ AIWAZ

...i would totally forget audience scanning
if you need some help im kinda in you neck of the woods (and i am a nys class B license holder)

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..I'd take him up on his kind-offer, and meet-up.. he can discuss the regs / show you how a safe-set up is, etc (..as-able, not making any-assumptions.. :) ..just-speaking from a 'knowledge of the Regs' / how to do a safe-show, etc-standpoint..)

Anyhoo, again, not trying to stick a fork in your a.. :) ...just echoing / re-enforcing the other posts, here.. :cool:
ciao..

j

Bradford, sending you a PM.

I have to say for a country with such strict laws, they're not enforced very well. In the UK if you reported a Health and Safety Violation, someone would probably be out within days to check and probably with events much quicker.

I know of a club night that was going to overfill a room, H&S got wind of it and within 24 hours they'd been forced to announce a change venue under threat of having the event shut down.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by White-Light

Bradford, sending you a PM.

I have to say for a country with such strict laws, they're not enforced very well. In the UK if you reported a Health and Safety Violation, someone would probably be out within days to check and probably with events much quicker.

I know of a club night that was going to overfill a room, H&S got wind of it and within 24 hours they'd been forced to announce a change venue under threat of having the event shut down.

---

Yes, enforcement here seems nonexistent. I've reported Epic Lasers, Kryo Man, and some Kryo Man ripoff out of NYC multiple times. Nothing has happened to any of them. There's also a ton of illegal operators in Brooklyn and NYC that I compete with, and even when I tell promoters these people aren't legal, I end up seeing videos of their shows posted after the fact.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by

..I'd take him up on his kind-offer, and meet-up.. he can discuss the regs / show you how a safe-set up is, etc [I

(..as-able, not making any-assumptions.. :) ..just-speaking from a 'knowledge of the Regs' / how to do a safe-show, etc-standpoint..)[/I]

Anyhoo, again, not trying to stick a fork in your a.. :) ...just echoing / re-enforcing the other posts, here.. :cool:
ciao..

j

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I already spoke to him yesterday and we had a 15 minutes conversation.If i can i will meet him personally in NY this w.e. I am now aware of most of the rules and i think i will start soon to get my federal variance as this would be my first step, right? then maybe i will check how much will it cost to fix my PJ eventually i will get rid of it and i will buy one with a variance.

The point guys is that i bought a pretty small laser(considering what others are using) on ebay with the main purpose to use it at my own parties and to play with it at home just because i like it. The post on ebay was saying that it was safe and ready for use in any venues club or lounges and maybe i was dumb to not check before the rules of this country and especially NY. As many other i thought it was "just a light", now i know it's not and thank you again for warning me.

I don't think i am hurting anyone business here as my parties are parties with 150/200 ppl and i could never afford to rent a laser from a certified/professional/legal companies.

I just ask you to understand my point...i was just trying to add some more effects to my own parties....i know now that i am doing something that needs variances and certified equipments in this country.

Thank you
G

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Originally Posted by Giacopin

...The post on ebay was saying that it was safe and ready for use...

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..Now you know the truth... :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Giacopin

..and i could never afford to rent a laser from a certified/professional/legal companies.

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Friendly pro-tip: You should never price your services so-low, that you cannot afford to do this, and still make something for your effort.. If a promoter offers less, tell them to stick it.. they do not deserve your work - and you do not deserve the 'risk'.. (ie: What-happens if your Chino-box craps-out, and the promoter decides to sue you, because you were hired for lasers / didn't deliver / he claims his 'event was ruined by you', blah, blah... Even if total-bs, you'd still need to spend $$$ to *defend* yourself.. This might not be 'relevant', now, if You, only, are 'running the show', but.. Always think 'down the road'...) :cool:

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Originally Posted by Giacopin

.I just ask you to understand my point...

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..and You, in-kind, ours (collectively.. :) Start here, http://www.photonlexicon.com/wiki/in...fety_Overviews ..ask lots of questions, stick to the 'high-road', and you'll have lots of success - long-term.. :cool:

ciao..
j

Meanwhile, back at the ranch....

Attached picture should sum it up. That is a retinal picture from another forum where a member took a direct hit from a static beam from a 1 watt laser pointer. He lost 40% or so of his central vision. He describes it as feeling no pain, then he cannot see, then what he could see had a red-orange tint from the blood filling his eye.

Factoid, There really is not a good legal mechanism in place to find or report laser injuries.

Steve

After many decades of working with high powered lasers I have a few suspicious lesions on one retina, but not on the fovea. I remember an incident in the '70's where a person took a hit from a pulsed laser. He was actually wearing safety glasses but they didn't seal all the way around. The laser pulse came from behind and reflected off the inside of the safety glasses back into his eye. He described it as a "pop" sound/sensation followed by what looked like someone dumping blood and ground black pepper into his field of vision. Then he went into shock.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Photonbeam

After many decades of working with high powered lasers I have a few suspicious lesions on one retina,

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By lesions do you mean possible cancer? I've never heard of cancer of the retina but have heard of studies where lesions were mentioned but never fully understood exactly what they referring to, ie burnt cells or cancers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Photonbeam

After many decades of working with high powered lasers I have a few suspicious lesions on one retina, but not on the fovea. I remember an incident in the '70's where a person took a hit from a pulsed laser. He was actually wearing safety glasses but they didn't seal all the way around. The laser pulse came from behind and reflected off the inside of the safety glasses back into his eye. He described it as a "pop" sound/sensation followed by what looked like someone dumping blood and ground black pepper into his field of vision. Then he went into shock.

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I got queasy reading this.

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Originally Posted by White-Light

By lesions do you mean possible cancer? I've never heard of cancer of the retina but have heard of studies where lesions were mentioned but never fully understood exactly what they referring to, ie burnt cells or cancers.

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No eye cancer here. Just one or two tiny black dots that may or may not be laser burns. I don't see them in my vision - they showed up in retinal photographs.

OK thanks for clearing that up, you had me a bit worried there. I'd never heard of cancer caused by visible light exposure only UV but when people mention lesions, you instantly think cancer as that's how its usually described. I was starting to almost question my own future laser usage if exposure could lead to retinal cancer as for me that's when the risks of beautiful light shows exceed the benefits.

405 and 445 worry me sometimes. Both wavelengths do not exist in great amounts in natural light. Shifting off the tungsten spectrum to the blue/yellow led spectrum for home lighting also worries me. There is a reason manufacturers are scrambling to emulate the solar/tungsten spectrum in LEDs. So far studies with 488 indicate that a shift in green vision acuity results.
Complete studies on 445 are a few years out.

As for safety, I worry more then most of you for a reason. The day job is pulsed tunable lasers at a few millijoules and 10 Hz, to Industrial at 16 joules per shot at 50 Hz or more. We also do a few picosecond lasers running at 80 MHZ with 20 watt average power. These ALL will start drilling a aluminum mount with a unfocused beam, with one pulse. I've already blown the anodizing off a mount while learning to adjust. Glasses are a last resort at those powers. If I can see green creeping around in my goggles, I've already set myself up for trouble. That is when I stop.

At work, we insert doubling crystals on sticks into our beampaths as a way to see what's going on. At these peak powers, we don't even need to tune the doubling angle much, hand held is enough. So the scary thing still is a repurposed lab laser being used for shows. I'm waiting to see a used modelocked fiber laser show up in a club. It is only a matter of time.

This is why you see me champion such a pro safety attitude, even if I'm loosing the game (well I've already lost) against the imports. I deal with the nasty stuff on a daily basis, week after week.

Powers are creeping up, and 4 watts, in a club, at zero distance is a retinal burn, likely to happen, not guaranteed. Luckily what is saving us is the poor beam quality and lousy divergence of diode sources.

Do what this Meebles guy does with a ion laser or OPSL and watch the lawsuits rack up. At some point powers will climb to levels where we see "events".

Steve

I've been in a pub tonight where they were running a 445nm laser source right into the crowd, nearest person maybe 2 metres. I didn't see what type it was as I didn't want to get into the beams knowing it was probably 500mw minimum given the source. The beam looked fairly fat on the wall but there was no way I was getting into it.

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Originally Posted by mixedgas

405 and 445 worry me sometimes.

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Hi Steve,

Also thought I read here (maybe you posted it) that 445nm is more readily absorbed by the retina, which makes it even more dangerous. Is that correct ? On my personal hobby rig I added a switch to be able to shut off the 1 Watt of 445; I only use it under ideal conditions. When experimenting with writing shows, etc, I only enable the couple hundred milliwatts or red and green ....

Hopefully that will be safe enough (Oh, and I DO own and wear safety glasses for each wavelength when adjusting/aligning....).

A bit of fear I think is a good thing to remember to continually respect the lasers ;)

Hello everybody

i spent the last 2 weeks reading everything in here:

http://www.photonlexicon.com/wiki/in...fety_Overviews

I spoke with John which also sent me other links about NY state law and also the FDA variance application,

i still have a question:

First of all in order for me to even buy a certified laser i should obtain an FDA variance right?

John sent me this form but i find hard to fill it out
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/aboutfd.../ucm080788.pdf

Like in section 7a LIST NAME AND/OR MODEL NUMBER(S) FOR THE LASER LIGHT SHOW(S) AND PROJECTOR(S)
I don't know what to type in here as i don't have any projector/show.

Can somebody help me?

About the laser that i bought on ebay i am still trying to deal with the guy that sold it to me and trying to return it. In the meantime i have notified him to ebay.

I think (not for sure) It mean the type/model of each single projector used for your show and the total number of them you use.
Example: (factories names and model names are fantasy names...)

- Photonlight, model "Alpha 1000 RGB" - no.1
- Photonlight, model "Beta 3000 G" - no.2
- Photonlight, model "Omega 5000 B" - no.5

(In this example list appear a total of 8 (eight) porjectors.)

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Originally Posted by Giacopin

First of all in order for me to even buy a certified laser i should obtain an FDA variance right?

John sent me this form but i find hard to fill it out
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/aboutfd.../ucm080788.pdf

Like in section 7a LIST NAME AND/OR MODEL NUMBER(S) FOR THE LASER LIGHT SHOW(S) AND PROJECTOR(S)
I don't know what to type in here as i don't have any projector/show.

Can somebody help me?.

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Though I am not a varianced operator (yet) I am fairly certain you will need a projector first before you can get an operator variance since (as you noticed) they ask for the details of the equipment you will be using. Your best bet (and the route I am going to take when I finally have the means to do so) is to buy a projector from http://x-laser.us/ They are a US based company with all of their bases covered so all of their products are approved for use in the US, plus They offer an EZ Variance kit when you buy one of their projectors (it's something like $50 and well worth it). With The EZ Variance kit you basically just fill out your own personal information and they take care of all the technical stuff. From what I hear you actually receive your variance quicker by using their system than trying to do it yourself. It is by far the simplest way to getting a variance. Also, Dan (the owner of X-Laser) is a member of this forum and I have seen him personally reply to customers here so the customer service beats almost anything you might get elsewhere.

(Edit - I believe the EZ Variance kit is just for the projector so you will still need to fill out a few additional federal and local forms before being able to use the projector in public but it is definitely the first step in fulfilling all of the necessary requirements)

Just a quick warning, watch out for X-Laser products from China either via ebay or other means. I believe Dan said they were a copy brand and not US legal. Only genuine X-Laser USA Products are varianced.

WOW! I had no idea X-Laser was being ripped off. But I guess it's true what they say, "Imitation is the highest form of flattery". That really sucks for X-Laser though if their name and reputation get dirtied because of a copycat.

Good advice
+ rep

Dan is great--and very helpful - he helps sponsor LEMS & knows his lasers.

about off brands with names almost the same..

pick any name and misspell it and chances are high that somebody already has a domain name almost the same-- this is done to 'steal' potential buyers who happen to misspell the seller domain name that they were actually looking for..a dirty trick IMO..the most common... either add an 'S" or dele one.

Knowing the city or country will keep you from making a mistake.


hk

Yes, it's been a problem for X-Laser USA.

The problem with this process is that in order to buy a projector in the US, you need to have a variance and the seller is supposed to confirm that you have one before selling it to you but, in order to complete the variance process, they ask you to list equipment you may use along with the accession number of the projector. It's a little convoluted but, here is the deal... you can list anything whether you own it or not because in theory you could rent what you need when you do a show. My variance for example contains things I will probably never own or use BUT, the door has been left open should I ever choose to. Also, you can add stuff later on. For example, in my variance, I'm approved for Image Engineering 3500-T, Laser Images CS-DX, Mobolazer ML-10 300, Laser Fantasy Infinity 2000, Laser Media model LM-10, LSDI Compact 2 or 8. I don't have the faintest clue what any of them are except the Mobolazer.

I'm not "up" on what the best thing to do is, as I had some assistance with completing my paperwork but, I'm sure someone knowledgeable with the process may chime in. I agree that X-Laser has made the process very easy and a great way to get started is with an X-Laser projector.

Zeropoint,

If you build your own or modify an existing unit, you may file the Manufacturer's report at the same time. I did, and no regrets.
It just takes longer if they ask for changes or corrections to the hardware document.
Steve

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Originally Posted by mixedgas

Zeropoint,

If you build your own or modify an existing unit, you may file the Manufacturer's report at the same time. I did, and no regrets.
It just takes longer if they ask for changes or corrections to the hardware document.
Steve

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Hey Steve,

How much paperwork is *really* involved, and does the projector need to be inspected? I have searched the forum for this information in the past, and couldn't find any definitive answers. Most people who have done it are either secretive about the process, or claim that it is too hard (and that everyone should just buy a projector from them). I'm actually surprised that the process doesn't have it's own sticky.

-Eric

" 15 characters"

Thanks for the response, Karl.

One of the things that has kept me from diving into this hobby head first is the possibility that I won't be able to use any of my creations outside of my shop. While I don't intend to ever manufacture lasers for resale, having the option of using something I built as part of a light show is very appealing; I am a tinkerer by nature, and would rather build things than buy them.

-Eric

actually NYS does not care about the projector(they leave that to the feds unless it looks unsafe ) in ny its all about the lasers inside the projector
i guess it goes back to the times when the laws were written back then lasers were very interchangeable in the ion days and often were changed (even at a gig)
so the registration is on the laser source not the projector in NYS
it still needs to be legal on the fed level