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im probably going to post this then just take a back seat and read the replies that come in.
has anyone seen the new moncha.net?
http://www.showtacle.com/products/moncha-net
looks pretty good, what are peoples views on this standing up to US safety regs?
I've not actually seen the Moncha.net DAC in person but what I can basically tell you is this. I have both Moncha 2.0 and Fiesta 2 from Showtacle and have had a number of discussions with Michal. I've been very pleased with their hardware and the company. I would expect Moncha.net to be of top quality. I'd love to get their Fiesta.net product but at $4500... it's not a quick decision. There are a ton of nice shows already out there for Moncha so if you're into canned shows, it's a good value. Now... on the software side of things, what I will tell you is that Moncha is no where near as robust or feature laden as Quickshow. I find it to be very rudementary and there are a lot of things I wished it contained that Quickshow already has. Basic stuff like easier ability to control zone sizes and, even some pre included test frames. It's a bit of a pain to set up for a show in the US because I haven't found a way to map out a projection area to ensure it doesn't go into the audience without playing the show several times and finding the spot at which the beams are lowest and raise everything up. The tricky part is it may be different for the next show. There may be an easy way to do it but, I haven't found it yet.
I've said this before that, when demonstrating and "selling" the idea of a laser show to clients, I almost always have used Moncha. The shows available for it are current and look great. On the day of the event however, I always use Pangolin products for their actual show since I'm playing live along with a DJ to which Quickshow, BEYOND and LivePro are better suited.
As far as US regs... I don't know that there is any stipulations about what software or hardware you're using to control the lasers... or whether you're using ILDA cable or CAT5/6, just the (probably redundant) ability to shut them off quickly.
bradders i think you are missing my point. click on that link and watch the video.
showtacle are offering moncha.net with a load of safety features for a good price. so im wondering how well the safety features stand up to the us regs
ok i take back what i jsut said, they seem to have changed the video.
this is the one i was refering to
http://www.showtacle.com/palmexpo/co...20e02-30252357
Humm... watched the second video and perhaps I'm not getting the jist of your question. The video above seems to be more geared towards saving money by having features such as an SD card, DMX and LCD screen all built into one device inside the projector. I don't seen them talking about additional safety measures or anything. It seems to be more ease of use. I'm not certain where this would be a problem in a US rig. I'm sure there may be objections to controlling a laser with DMX or the fact that an SD card is built in. I think they'd want an operator to be in control versus an autoplay type situation. I also don't know if the DMX protocol offers enough ability to faultlessly be able to shut off the laser either.
We probably need someone with a little more working knowledge of what the CDRH likes and doesn't like, based on their past experience and discussions, to chime in - mixedgas, slicklasers, dsli_jon, x-laser, etc.
One, the gradient feature would help you in Canada, but not the US. It is not a scanning safeguard, able to monitor the output energy of the laser. So there goes "legal" audience scanning in a venue with just that. Although I like the feature and feel it has a place in the market. The US system places the Quality Control duties on the operator at setup and during the show.
Two, You would have to be the first person to prove that the DMX link failure or Ethernet link failure causes the laser projector to extinguish to some reasonable standard, say five or six sigma reliability , ie one 15 minute failure in one year of operation. That would be a expensive test. Proving that said link worked as well as a hard wired shutter. ie the Failsafe concept, proving that in software malfunction or partial link failure, the operator still has control or the system will extinguish itself.
Three, In a varianced system, the last thing you want to do is define that your projector only works with ONE software based controller for the keyswitch. You would declare it as a optional control box and have to include a partial schematic, and hopefully the keyswitch is not tied to the microprocessor in any way. If your Moncha stopped working, and it was the sole controller, you would have to amend your variance for a new controller. Traditionally we define the controller as just black box with a keyswitch and shutter switch loop in it.
ILDA cables with the shutter loop inherently comply with the US traditional standards, that is why those two pins are there.
I like the gradient, and were I doing something illegal and un-tested in terms of audience scanning I'd be darn glad to have it. Keep in mind a power reduction of a few binary steps out of 255 available levels per color does not always do something meaningful for a given effect, you still need to measure or calculate the exposure to the audience.
The DMX standard as issued specifically prohibits safety of life uses of DMX, including pyro and motion control.
Nice way to sneak in a subtle advert for Moncha, but this is not Earth shattering.
Steve
I hear what your saying steve thanks for the info, just a tad more info.
moncha.net has interlock built in and if the Ethernet cable is disconnected the laser output stops after 3 seconds.
3 secs is far too long.
Steve
That's what I thought :(
ok so lets put something else out there.
the US regs require a old and out dated shutter to be installed in a projector.
would a safety board with built in shutter which would be 1000000000000000000's of times faster than a moving shutter meet the regs?
I will help out here Andy - What I think Andy is asking, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is for US do you HAVE to have a mechanical shutter or would an electronic shutter inside the projector that can respond in a less than a millisecond suffice. This electronic shutter would eb operated by the normal shutter signal plus its linked in to the projector interlocks and emergency stop.
Rob
bang on rob, cheers
As far as I understand it, I believe the shutter should default to a closed position in the event of any failure, including the shutter circuit (i.e. when running, the shutter is 'held' open)
Logically, I see no reason why a set of N/O relays on the mod lines couldn't be used in place of the mechanical shutter, in some respects (speed), they'd be even better.
That's exactly what the Kvant safety board is, completely electronic using OPTOS. There's no manual stop feature on Kvants.Quote:
Originally Posted by norty303
Do I take it from your question that there's a built in safety circuit in the Moncha OEM unit then Andy? There doesn't seem to be anything labelled on the Moncha page within the labelled picture of the board.
I know Kvant have their own safety boards so wasn't sure if it was just the Kvant projectors that had this feature (through Kvant / Moncha integration) or the OEM Moncha board if bought separately for integration.
no us experts want to comment?
The Shutter is not outdated. It is actually beneficial. When its closed, any stray light is gone. The requirement is for a spring loaded shutter that closes hard, regardless of orientation. There is no speed requirement for it. With a relay with strong springs, you might prove equivalence.
However, it is always nice to allow DPSS green to be at a constant temperature. A shutter allows this. Especially in hot, outdoor, venues. Are you going to want to "short out" a five watt green or OPSL? I don't think so.
The 200-300 nanosecond safeguard timing requirement is for audience scanning, not the safety shutter.
The shutter can be opened at the start of the event and left open all night, there is no requirement in the rules for it to be constantly opening and closing.
Steve
im pretty sure a £15000 opsl tec system heats and cools, if not I want my money back! so I don't seem this as an issue
I understand the need for a shutter on a old gas laser but not new none gas systems.
with robs new board the module will be off before the shutter has moved a single 1mm.
do we think robs method will gain approval in the us, or are they going to insist on an old shutter system
Unless your lasers are weak, Uncle Sam is going to require the shutter. Its not useless, and not just for Gas. I'd seriously have my doubts about doing a show with say a Laserscope KTP or similar without one. Especially on a Windows based system. I've seen plenty of laser control systems that start in a un-defined state at boot, even if just for a few 10s of milliseconds.
What happens if your client is using a Quality Asian product that needs a strong pull down on the analog drive to extinguish? If you have not seen one of those before, I can show you mine. Its from a major brand, CNI, too.
Steve
Keen as for a mechanical shutter as well as robs boards. I had one a long time ago. It was pretty simple.
Duce Duce ?
And I suppose that if your electronic shutters contacts weld shut then you have a fail safe?
Sure, the shutter on my big (400w) yag has a position switch on the shutter mirror itself, it the shutter is activated and it is not in position or deactivated and not in that position it shuts everything down.Quote:
Originally Posted by daction
I dont see why you wouldnt want to have a mechanical shutter in your system.
daction, what kind of bird do you have?
-Jerry
I asked one of the most experienced US laser safety engineers what he thought of the "No Shutter with DPSS"concept. The answer was "Don't do it". I'll explain his reasoning when I get back from SELEM.
Steve
Hey,Quote:
Originally Posted by macona
Henry is a female yellow Indian Ringneck.
Any chance of a pic of the shutter on your laser?
Cheers
I was talking to a mate of mine about this yesterday. He was like you can power down your coils , however if you haven't got the shutter you can't be sure its off.
As for the size thing. It shouldn't matter if your laser is big or small safety features should be standard. Its called industry standard.
A simple electric hot water system has at least 3 fail safes in it. The valve chain to a forced induction burner has heaps of interlocking safety features.