Pangolin

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03-20-2007, 15:07
Astroguy

Pangolin

Well I have had my Pangolin system for about a month now. Let me start by saying WOW, I am so glad I moved to Pangolin. I started with Alphalite and for the money it is a good starter system. Then I moved to Mamba Black and Easylase USB, a little more money and a better system. Maybe good enough for some hobbyist and I thought it was good enough for me as well. That is until I saw the Pangolin system at FLEM. After that I had to have it.
For anyone getting into this hobby or anyone starting out in the laser business bypass all the growing pains and start with Pangolin if you can. It really is not that much more money for the intro system when you consider you get over 100 full shows and thousands of frames, the best customer support you could ever ask for and a rock solid system that is fast and crash proof. I have crashed every other system I have tried many times.
Pangolin is easy to learn with the DVD tutorials and extensive help files and if that is not enough you can call or e-mail them for help and get one on one help. They are very responsive to client needs. They even have there own forums http://www.pangolin.com/ubb/ubbthreads.php

I wish I would have started with Pangolin it would have saved me a great deal of frustration and money. There are so many features it would take too long for me to list them all. But I would like to mention the abstract generator, it is so cool you can get hooked on it, like a video game I find myself sitting for hours at the computer trying to see what kind of wild pattern I can make next. I would recommend that anyone thinking about buying a system to check out the Pangolin site at http://www.pangolin.com you may be surprised just how affordable it really is.
03-20-2007, 23:30
cruch

Pangolin

Yes! I also recommend the Pangolin system. I also started out with the Alphalite system, great system for a newbies. Easy to use. Then moved up to LDS basic, also easy to use and with 60-70+ shows. Good software. Then at christmass time, I did get hold on a Pangolin Pro system, from Bill him self. 100+ shows. Graphics and beamshows. YEAH.
This system really rocks! SO easy to use. I though it was a complex software and hard to use it. But I was dead wrong, even a child can use it ;)

My next pangolin is the QM2000 http://pangolin.com/LD2000/QM2000NET.htm
So I can control the system with a laptop >:)

I also own the pangolin sms2laser, another great product from pangolin.
Send an sms to my phone number, and the txt will be projected on a laserscreen :) Cool as hell.

Astroguy:
I agree with you, the abstract generator is nice to play with. Also their help is one of the best I ever had for a product.
03-21-2007, 00:34
allthatwhichis

So... I shouldn't try to get an easylase... sell my copy of LDS, the alphalite (which I haven't gotten to work yet), the two extra gigs of RAM I have, extra cpu, and anything extra I can find and get an intro kit? :rolleyes:

Don't take this the wrong way, but you guys are killin me... :p I don't need a product review to convince me... I need more things to sell. :eek:
03-21-2007, 00:48
cruch

hehehe..Well..the pangolin cards works in any old pc. LD2000 system will run at the same speed no matter how fast or slow your computer runs. Even with an old x386 cpu. Doesn matter what pc system you got. LD2000 card has build in CPU and memory to prosess all data. Like an buildin pc in a PCI card.

;)
03-21-2007, 04:15
Astroguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by cruch

hehehe..Well..the pangolin cards works in any old pc. LD2000 system will run at the same speed no matter how fast or slow your computer runs. Even with an old x386 cpu. Doesn matter what pc system you got. LD2000 card has build in CPU and memory to prosess all data. Like an buildin pc in a PCI card.

;)

I forgot to mention it has its own CPU and memory, it loads shows 10+ times faster Mamba and even if Windows crashes it will keep playing the show. :D
03-22-2007, 18:33
ajcleary

Is there anything Pangolin can't do? :)

I'm seriously considering going for Pangolin, probably the Intro version. It's either that or Mamba Black...

Out of curiosity, is there anything that the other software can do that Pangolin can't?

The one thing I like about Mamba Black is the open-hardware DAC... Ideally I'd like to run a graphics projector and beam projector simultaneously.

With Mamba Black I'd just build a simple DAC0830 and be done. I think with Pangolin, either I'd have to buy a second board or just use a beamtable on DMX.

It sounds like Pangolin is easy to use, and I'm guessing making shows is a little faster with the included autotrace programs and clipart frames.

Thanks for reviewing this, though - I definitely value your experiences and advice.
03-22-2007, 21:00
DZ

Quote:

Ideally I'd like to run a graphics projector and beam projector simultaneously.

Pangolin would be the way to go. If you needed to run a graphics and beam projector at the same time then you would need a second board, preferably a basic so that one runs as a slave to the other. OR, to do it on the cheap, you could always pickup an Alesis blackface adat, modify it for dc input (I have the intructions around somewhere if anyone needs it), record the graphic shows to the adat and use pangolin to run the beams.

I've heard rumors of a pangolin hobby board and software coming out soon. That may be a better option as well. Then you may be able to get two for less than the price of LD2K intro. But I bet it lacks much of the great features that even the intro board has to offer. My advice, go for the LD2K intro board, then if you like it you can upgrade it to basic or pro at a later time.

David
03-27-2007, 23:36
Pangolin

Hi all,

Thanks for the kudos guys!!

Just a few quick points. First, I am sure there is *something* that some other program does, and that ours does not. That's just the nature of the business... I am sure there are some features in WordPerfect that are not in MS:Word. But usually even when this is the case, there is a way to do the same kind of effect, using a different tool or method. Also, although I am sure there might be a thing or two that some other program can do and which ours can not, I am also sure that there are a whole lot of things that our software can do and others can not ;)

Second, if you want to run a second projector, with LD2000 it is true that you need another board. In the past, you needed to have at least LD2000 BASIC if you wanted to run more than one projector. But this is no longer the case, and in fact even our LD2000 Intro system can run up to 30 projectors, as long as you have the required number of QM2000 boards.

"Open hardware" has its benefits and, for example, our LivePRO program supports this kind of concept. But "open hardware" also has drawbacks too... I would say that quality and reliability are highest with dedicated platforms. That's my opinion anyway...

Best regards,

William Benner
03-31-2007, 15:22
dave

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangolin

Second, if you want to run a second projector, with LD2000 it is true that you need another board. In the past, you needed to have at least LD2000 BASIC if you wanted to run more than one projector. But this is no longer the case, and in fact even our LD2000 Intro system can run up to 30 projectors, as long as you have the required number of QM2000 boards.

This is great news!

Did this come into play with V.4.0?
04-01-2007, 06:20
Pangolin

Hi Dave,

Yes, a few things changed in 4.0. The limitation on the number of projectors was completely removed, and more tracks and other features were added to LD2000 Intro. Also, the price of LD2000 Intro was reduced.

Really, unless you are on a very tight budget, it is a no-brainer to get LD2000 Intro... Of course, if you are on a tight budget, we will soon have something else for you ;)

Best regards,

William Benner
04-01-2007, 15:19
Lasermad

>Of course, if you are on a tight budget, we will soon have something else for you ........

TEASE !
04-01-2007, 16:10
buffo

Gotta be the hobbyist product we've been hearing about.

Wonder if we got Bill drunk one night, if he'd spill the beans to us about what it's going to come with? :D

Adam
04-01-2007, 16:29
allthatwhichis

Sounds like a goal for FLEM 2 or SALEM... :rolleyes: :D
04-06-2007, 18:13
illuzion

I guess I'm kinda split on the whole hobbiest Pangolin thing. I guess the problem is I find myself sitting on the wrong side of the fence. I am now a Pangolin owner, so I kinda see this one way now. I am without question a hobbiest, I have never made a dime with my lasers, yet I have been doing this for many years. My first RGB was a 60x/Spectra 124 tandem, using mechanical blanking with beamsplitters (never could afford that darn pcaom). My setup has come a long way since. For all these years, I have always looked at pangolin and drooled over it, and "made do" with much less (much much less in fact), but is something I have always aspired to have, and only recently was able to afford it (after wishing I could for years). I always wished for Pangolin to have some type of deal for hobbiests, their pricing structure was always OBVIOUSLY centered around the commercial lasershow market, I can't blame them, thats what drives this industry forward. I always hoped they would have a deal that would allow a hobbiest to buy a "pro" system for an "intro" price, with the stipulation that it can only be used noncomercially. Since this never happened, and it was really the best solution, I "found" the money to buy a setup, luckily I got a basic setup for a slightly higher than intro price. One thing here is that hobbiests seem to be able to "find" money for the right stuff (Hardware), people here buy expensive lasers all the time, very few question it, same goes for galvos, servos, etc. But most hobbiests seem to have something against buying expensive software to drive their units, sure there is a lot of good freeware out there, but it does not compare to Pangolin. You don't see everyone here begging CTI to come up with a "hobbiest scanner", or CNI to come up with a "Hobbiest Laser", when it comes to hardware, most of the hobbiests accept it at face value, and pay the price for quality stuff. Now as far as the "hobbiest pangolin" setup goes, here are my feelings, I know I am not the ONLY one here who as a hobbiest has bought a real full pangolin setup, a lot of people here who enjoy this hobby have invested in this package, or are currently working on putting together money for one, or holding out for the hobbiest setup, I will be the first to admit how hard it is to put together that kind of money for a hobby that will most likely yield no financial return on investment, in fact will probably be on its way to obsolesence in the near future (as with most hitech toys). Now if Pangolin releases a product with "similar" functionality and performance based on a newer (and cheaper to manufacture) hardware platform, and includes all the shows that the real setup does, and offers it at a price that is a fraction of the real setup, I feel kind of let down in a sense that I paid the price for LD2000, and then a product with simlar functionality and reliability from the same manufactuer replaces it at a fraction of the cost. If this product was released by a competitor to Pangolin, I probably wouldn't care, as competition would be good in this industry, but essentially pangolin is competing with themselves for the hobbiest market. My main complant against LD2000 is for multiple scanner support, I believe this is out of the hobbiest budget as most of us can only afford ONE pangolin setup (If we are really really lucky), and to add a second scanner would require a second setup (cheapest way is $1500 for intro). My idea was (two options) #1 for pangolin to release a card/firmware that was niether Intro/Basic/Pro, kind of like the CD firmware, but call it "slave", sell it at like $500, and LD2000 will not run with it as an only board in the system, but it would be able to run as a second scanner, or third, etc, I know the LD2000 hardware can be sold at this price level (granted that is based on Hardware price, not counting Intellectual Property) option #2, would yield higher profit for pangolin is to allow the flashback hardware to function as a slave to LD2000, and support the second scanner on that platform. Now I guess the problem is I am speaking as a LD2000 owner, so therefore I am expressing my needs to expand LD2000 (multiple projectors) as a hobbiest and unable to afford another setup (intro), before I was an LD2000 owner, I would probably be on the other side of the fence on this issue, fighting for a cheaper product. I wonder if the money that they would gain from the hobbiest market through releasing this product will be greater than what they would lose in potential LD2000 sales.

My main question is targeted against EXISTING LD2000 owners, how do you guys feel about the release of the hobbiest system knowing what you paid for LD2000 as hobbiests???
04-07-2007, 03:08
yaddatrance

If you have an LD2k Basic, there's a large list of features which are
not natively supported on the flashback and accompanying software.
I suppose whether or not a FB3 will suffice for your hobbies depends
on what you plan on doing with it, for a living room system, even
homebrew is just as good as anything. If you scan on mountains, then
the extra few bits will come in useful. As the new hobby system currently
has a non-commercial license I'd imagine that it does not depreciate the
worth of any existing LD2k system (far less in any event than the $500 price
drop from LD2k list prices) I would also posit that since pangolin systems
retain value, if there is a legitimate concern with this and you're not planning
on "going pro" you can sell your basic, buy the hobby system and have
enough money left over to get a nice laser or an extra scansystem or two.

P.S. I may be mistaken as I haven't tried a FB3 myself, but I recall several
shows where people were slaving it off the LD2k boards.
04-07-2007, 09:43
Pangolin

Hi illuzion,

Your posting was long and mono-paragraph ;) so I might have missed a few of your points. But I did want to respond directly to a few of your points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by illuzion

...with simlar functionality and reliability from the same manufactuer...

Well, we are still figuring out exactly what the "functionality" will be. As for "reliability", well, frankly, that remains to be seen!! In terms of hardware, both the LD2000 systems and Flashback systems are designed with industrial components. System reliability is very high on our list of priorities, and that is one of the things people comment about when talking about our systems over competitors.

As for software reliability itself, one reason why there are relatively few LD2000 software releases per year is because the software is vigorously reviewed by us and by key clients, and we don't release software until we know it is really solid. For the hobbyist software, I would be willing to bet that people would want software features just as quickly as we develop them, so testing and ultimate reliability is of lower importance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by illuzion

pangolin is competing with themselves for the hobbiest market

Ahh, but we're not!! As I was telling Adam (Buffo) on the phone, and as you can see by the poll of "Lets see what people are using", Pangolin is only used by the most sophisticated users in this group. But what about everyone else?

One of the things that I was mentioning to Adam is that I started out as a hobbyist. As far as I can tell, most people have... So I was in the very shoes as many of you guys. For years, I tried to figure out how we can lower our prices, or introduce a product that would work for people on a budget, but our QM2000 hardware is quite expensive for us to build, so this really isn't workable.

This latest idea from us, to give low-cost hardware at a low-cost price is to try to give something back to the group of people in the crowd where I started myself. We want to do something for you guys, but it has to work for us too...

Quote:

Originally Posted by illuzion

My idea was (two options) #1 for pangolin to release a card/firmware that was niether Intro/Basic/Pro, kind of like the CD firmware, but call it "slave", sell it at like $500

Well, unfortunately we can't do that. $500 is less than our cost for the QM2000 board... Also, the way our software and hardware work together, your proposal just wouldn't work. And lastly, the vast majority of our clients are professionals who appreciate the utility and flexibility of being able to use an LD2000 Intro system as a slave today, and as a separate controller tomorrow. Since LD2000 is a professional product, we need to do what will satisfy our professional users.

Quote:

Originally Posted by illuzion

option #2, would yield higher profit for pangolin is to allow the flashback hardware to function as a slave to LD2000

Intuitively I don't think your option #2 would yield higher profit for Pangolin, but I might be mistaken. If you have formal business experience, we might consider hiring you ;) After all, we are actually actively seeking employees at Pangolin right now... In any event, the way the LD2000 system works is that there is a separate computer (the QM2000) that handles each projector. This has numerous benefits which are beyond the scope of this discussion. The drawback is that... it is a separate computer that runs each projector, which means that there is an expense associated with this "separate computer".

The real key for hobbyist level people is a completely different system, which does not have the numerous benefits of the QM2000, but that's OK because hobbyist level people don't necessarily need those numerous benefits.

One thing to keep in mind is that we are not releasing the same exact product at a lower price for a certain group of people who qualify. It is a completely different product with different hardware and software. The hardware is an even further cost-reduced version of our Flashback 3. The software is something we have already largely paid for and amortized. It is only this combination which allows us to offer something to hobbyists and LaserFreaks at a low cost.

As for people who already have the LD2000 system, well they should take solace in the fact that they have one of the most capable systems in the world, with more frames and shows than any other system, numerous ways to expand that system (add-ons and SDK) and one which holds its value very well on the resale market. We can’t say any of this for the new hobbyist system!!

Best regards,

William Benner
04-07-2007, 12:40
buffo

RE: LA-Freak vs LD-2000...

Thanks for the extra info Bill. Great post. (I see you figured out how to get the quoting feature to work!) :D

I'd like to address a few other points that illuzion made...

Quote:

people here buy expensive lasers all the time, very few question it, same goes for galvos, servos, etc. But most hobbiests seem to have something against buying expensive software to drive their units

I'd have to disagree with this. I have not bought expensive lasers. Wait - let me clarify. I have not spent a lot of money on my lasers, regardless of how expensive they may or may not have been in the retail market. Like many hobbyists, I look for deals on E-bay, and when I find one, I grab it. If I had to pay retail prices all the time, I'd be broke by now! :o

Here: let's do a quick experiment. Let's see a show of hands for all those hobbyists that bought their lasers out of the Edmund Optics catalog... :rolleyes:

Yep - that's what I thought. Not very many. And for good reason too! Case in point: page 207 of the 2007 Edmund Optics catalog lists a 110V air-cooled 150 mw multiline argon laser w/ PSU for $7,800. :eek: You can get one for 1/10th that price on E-bay! Or how about $1,760 for a 15 mw HeNe? (Page 205) Any takers?:cool:

It's been my experience that laser hobbyists have always complained about the price of the hardware. In fact, I'd say that the vast majority of us spend a *lot* of time trying to get a better deal on our equipment. (I know there are several people here, myself included, that have purchased DVD burner modules off E-bay and ripped them apart for the 670nm diode inside, because it was a *cheap* way to get a 100 mw + red laser.)

So, having gotten used to being able to save a bundle on equipment by buying from the used/surplus market, is it any wonder why most hobbyists suddenly balk at the prospect of spending 4 figures :eek: on the software and the controller?

The problem is that there just isn't much of a used lasershow software market on E-bay. Deals on a Pangolin QM-2000 board w/ software are a lot harder to find.:( So we look for cheaper solutions. (Like Mamba Black, Alphalite, etc...) Or even freeware solutions. (Poplescan, LaserBoy, Uclunux Laser, etc...) And we settle for "less", both in terms of features and in terms of output quality.

Don't get me wrong, the QM-2000 board is, without question, the cat's meow. ;) And there is a reason why it's so expensive - it's really that good! It's just that for the average hobbyist, it's more than we need. For example, we don't need an independent "computer on a board" that will keep the show running even if our host computer crashes. Sure, it's a great feature, but I think most hobbyists would gladly forfeit that feature if they could save some $$$.

Bill recognized that there was a gap in the Pangolin line when he noticed that the members of the LaserFreak forums were turning more and more to lower-cost solutions like Mamba Black instead of saving up for the LD-2000 package. A new product was needed for the hobbyist market, and in my opinion the FB3 controller coupled with the LA-Freak software is a very good match. :) Sure, the FB3 may not be a cadillac controller like the QM-2000, but it will get the job done for the majority of hobbyists. Likewise, the LA-Freak software may not be as polished or intuitive as LaserShow Designer 2000 or LivePro, but it *does* offer a lot of cool features - including all the common effects, the ability to sync shows to music, a live player, a 3D editor, a text effects generator, an abstract generator, etc....

Remember that this package isn't designed to compete with a QM-2000. (And by all descriptions, it really couldn't, since the QM-2000 has so many other features that set it apart from nearly every other controller out there.) Rather, this package is designed to compete with the likes of a Mamba Black/Easylase USB combination, or the Alphalite XC Pro software and controller combination. And believe me, in that market segment, this LA-Freak product is *very* competitive. (How can you beat the $500 price?):D

Quote:

Now if Pangolin releases a product with "similar" functionality and performance based on a newer (and cheaper to manufacture) hardware platform, and includes all the shows that the real setup does, and offers it at a price that is a fraction of the real setup, I feel kind of let down in a sense that I paid the price for LD2000, and then a product with simlar functionality and reliability from the same manufactuer replaces it at a fraction of the cost.

Well, for one thing this new product will not include all the shows that your LD-2000 package did. Why? Simple. The LA-Freak software uses a different (and incompatible:( ) file format to save the shows. Oh sure, it will read Pangolin frame files, as well as ILDA frame files, but it can't read an entire show file. So you're not going to get the ~100 shows with this package like you did with your LD-2000. In fact, you might not get any shows at all...

Bill was talking about including some of the Pangolin frame files with the final release version of the software. He hoped that a few of the early adopters :rolleyes: would be willing to splice those frames back together to re-create some of the original shows that the LD-2000 comes with. (They would need to be recreated and saved in the LA-Freak file format before they could be distributed.) But that's all up in the air right now.:o

Then too, the FB3 controller is hardly "similar" hardware when compared to the QM-2000 board. Sure, at the basic level they both can display laser frames, but that's where the similarity ends. The QM-2000 is a huge leap forward when compared to the FB3. (Which is why it costs more.) :D But maybe you don't need all that extra functionality. (I have a feeling many hobbyists don't; or at least, they'd be willing to give it up in order to save some money, which is why Pangolin is releasing this new hobbyist product in the first place...)

If you truely have buyers remorse about buying your QM-2000 board, Bill's suggestion is a good one. Sell it on E-bay and purchase the new hobbyist product instead.;) (I can promise that you'll have plenty of people interested in buying it from you!) :D Your board is still worth a lot of $$$ - believe me!

But before you do that, you might want to download a copy of the new software that will be used for the hobbyist product and give it a try. (It will work with your QM-2000 board just fine. Just call Pangolin and have them e-mail you a license file, then download the software for free.) And maybe after you've played around with the software, you might decide that you like the interface, or the added features, of your LD-2000 setup better.

Adam
04-07-2007, 14:19
illuzion

As far as buyer's remorse goes, I wouldn't trade my LD2k setup for ANYTHING (except the pro version). I didn't buy it as an investment, or for resale value, I bought it to use it, I certainly do, and it does everything it is supposed to (and more), I don't regret buying it for a second, my only regret is I waited this long. I was just wondering how all the people that took the plunge and already bought a QM2000 felt about the Pangolin hobbiest package. As far as what it can and can't do, that is currently unknown, as it is unreleased. What we do know is the level of performance of the Flashback3 hardware, and what it is capable of, and yes it too is a "computer on a board", instead of PC100 SDRAM, it uses Smartmedia (IMHO a poor choice of flash memory given everything thats out there, but works fine). So theoretically given the right firmware/software setup, it has similar capability (even if not currently fully utilized) to the QM2000 in a cost reduced package.
04-07-2007, 15:00
DZ

Quote:

Originally Posted by illuzion

As far as buyer's remorse goes, I wouldn't trade my LD2k setup for ANYTHING (except the pro version). I didn't buy it as an investment, or for resale value, I bought it to use it, I certainly do, and it does everything it is supposed to (and more), I don't regret buying it for a second, my only regret is I waited this long. I was just wondering how all the people that took the plunge and already bought a QM2000 felt about the Pangolin hobbiest package. As far as what it can and can't do, that is currently unknown, as it is unreleased. What we do know is the level of performance of the Flashback3 hardware, and what it is capable of, and yes it too is a "computer on a board", instead of PC100 SDRAM, it uses Smartmedia (IMHO a poor choice of flash memory given everything thats out there, but works fine). So theoretically given the right firmware/software setup, it has similar capability (even if not currently fully utilized) to the QM2000 in a cost reduced package.

I was a bit miffed when I found out they dropped the intro price $500. Especially since I had just picked up an intro card a few months prior. I got over it though. Its worth every penny I spent on it. I had a QM32 Basic and a LD2K Pro prior and they were worth every penny as well.

David
04-07-2007, 16:59
buffo

Quote:

Originally Posted by illuzion

As far as buyer's remorse goes, I wouldn't trade my LD2k setup for ANYTHING (except the pro version).

:o Sorry about that... :o Maybe "buyers remorse" was too harsh a term. I didn't mean to imply that you weren't pleased with your LD-2000. (I don't know that I've ever met anyone that wasn't thrilled when they got one.)

Quote:

As far as what it can and can't do, that is currently unknown, as it is unreleased.

Not really. The software is available for download right now, so you can check it out for yourself and compare it to your LD-2000 setup to see exactly what it can and can not do. (see my post above for the link) Bill said that all he's going to do is clean up the interface; he's not going to add new tools. In fact, if anything it's likely that the feature set will actually DECREASE after he's finished with the edits. Here's why:

One of the problems Bill had with the old LA Studio software was the fact that there were 3 or 4 different ways to accomplish a given task, and some of the ways worked better than others. His plan is to pare down the interface to make it easier to understand, even if that means removing some of the features.

He also wanted the user interface to look more standardized, with typical menus and window gadgets, etc. But this means that some of the special purpose buttons and settings may need to be removed or changed.

So if you check it out now, you'll see it with as many features as it's ever going to have. (Bill also hinted that he might remove the 3D editor and some of the other tool modules when it is finaly released as LA-Freak.)

Quote:

What we do know is the level of performance of the Flashback3 hardware, and what it is capable of, and yes it too is a "computer on a board" <snip> So theoretically given the right firmware/software setup, it has similar capability (even if not currently fully utilized) to the QM2000 in a cost reduced package.

I confess that I don't know enough about the QM-2000 and FB3 hardware to list specifics, but I believe your claim that they are fundamentally equivalent is incorrect nonetheless. Why? For the simple reason that if the FB3 could do *everything* that QM-2000 board can, why is Pangolin still selling the QM-2000's? We already know that their cost on the FB3 is a *lot* lower than it is for the QM-2000. So why not switch to the new hardware and make more profit on each system sold? (They could drop the price and *still* make more money...)

While the FB3 is certainly a neat piece of hardware, I don't think it even comes close to the capabilities of the QM-2000 board. (Perhaps Bill will chime in here with the details.)

Adam
04-07-2007, 20:17
illuzion

Welp, as far as differences go, fundamentally they are pretty darn close. Both are embedded "computers on a board", the CPU on the QM2000 is the Motorola Coldfire which has nice onboard DSP capability (similar parallel processing operations usually afforded only by ASIC/FPGA as used in the RSDI showlink), and lots of processing horsepower, The Flashback3, has an Atmel variety of the good old 8051. Both have onboard memory capable of holding a show. The QM2000 uses PC100 SDRAM which is many times faster than the Flash memory on the Flashback3, as far as how fast it has to be to load laserframes in real time, only Bill can probably answer that. The QM2000 has an "expansion connectors" as well as direct PCI Interface which allows hookup of an IDE CD-ROM drive like in the CD2000, or the QM2000.NET card, the Flashback3 has much more limited internal I/O and interface. As far as D/A, I didn't take the time to look at datasheets and compare the two, but the QM2000 has more channels, ie (8 color control for the QM2k, and 4 channels for the FB3), 12bit DAC resolution for the FB3, vs 16bit resolution for the QM2k, I can tell you the analog output stage on the QM2000 looks much more robust. Remeber the Flashback3 was designed to run any shows (cues) created on LD2000 as a standalone device, so by design its hardware must be capable, and similar in performance. I'm sure I am not 100% accurate here (after all I don't work for pangolin), and I will probably be corrected, but I think these are pretty close to the list of differences between the hardware platforms, the rest is all software on the PC.
04-07-2007, 20:49
allthatwhichis

I am very happy with the intro set I just bought and talked with Bill on the phone about both products before I made my decision. I would like to try and make a little money back on my projector so I went and got the intro kit. Although wanting and doing are two different things though. I am sure that the LA-Freak will not have all the features of even the intro so I am not concerend of the cost difference. I also like the fact of it being a pci card. PICE might be an interesting evolution though. >:) I don't want to have another "box to tote around, although it could go into the projector. I wouldn't mind grabbing one if i could afford to build a second projector for a slave unit.

buffo took the reply out of my mind on the "expensive lasers". All our lasers are "cheap" in the cosmic scheme of things. My 50mW blue that measures 75mW cost me $500 plush shipping on eBay. :eek: Granted it was my most expensive laser, but it IS my blue. ;) I want Bill's lil gas white light projector... :cool:
04-08-2007, 01:27
cruch

Still learning something each day of the pangolin LD2000 software!!
I think it is a huge step from the Flashback3 to QM2000.
I newer tried the Flashback3 card, but I am willing to try it out. (I will order it shortly) I was thinking of adding it into my 100mw/150mw green lasersystem, just for use for my sms2laser software from pangolin. :)
This will be a low cost solution for me. :) :)

Must say that I will order the "Flashback3 Evaluation Kit", because I intend to use it for commercial use :)
04-08-2007, 08:17
The_Doctor

Flashback 3 looks very cool to me. Small, self contained, and elegant. 12 bits is good too, if it's ok with the wide angles of WideMoves (which have an analog equivalent to 12 bit res according to specs), then this is an increment that isn't going to be visible on narrower scans. It's plenty for colours too, at least it won't be the weak link. Linearity of colour variance by analog mod of DPSS or diodes is going to be worse, you'd have to use ultrafast PWM mod to get better accuracy than 12 bit colour will manage. I don't know the details of microprocessors, I get foozled by the enormity of the subject every time I look at it but I try to follow on sci.electronics.components, and these Atmel devices are rated highly by many who do know the subject. Loading from flash memory might be slower, but if the processor has a fast cache that might be enough. A few laser frames don't take much space, so I think a fast cache will hold a few of them.

I still like the idea of software and an adapted soundcard best, but the Flashback 3 is something I want to get, and the only thing stopping me is lack of money. Being able to use different software to control it is a very nice idea.
04-09-2007, 00:15
dave

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Doctor

Flashback 3 looks very cool to me. Small, self contained, and elegant. 12 bits is good too, if it's ok with the wide angles of WideMoves (which have an analog equivalent to 12 bit res according to specs), then this is an increment that isn't going to be visible on narrower scans. It's plenty for colours too, at least it won't be the weak link. Linearity of colour variance by analog mod of DPSS or diodes is going to be worse, you'd have to use ultrafast PWM mod to get better accuracy than 12 bit colour will manage. I don't know the details of microprocessors, I get foozled by the enormity of the subject every time I look at it but I try to follow on sci.electronics.components, and these Atmel devices are rated highly by many who do know the subject. Loading from flash memory might be slower, but if the processor has a fast cache that might be enough. A few laser frames don't take much space, so I think a fast cache will hold a few of them.

I still like the idea of software and an adapted soundcard best, but the Flashback 3 is something I want to get, and the only thing stopping me is lack of money. Being able to use different software to control it is a very nice idea.

Just to clear a few things up

Both the QM2000, and the FB3 have 8bit color channels. The difference being the QM has 16bit X-Y, and the FB3 has 12bit. 8bit color is more than enough..

From my understanding, the smart media is only used for FB3 operation in standalone/DMX modes. When the FB3 runs as a computer output device from LivePRO, or the new software, the smart media is not used. Rather the FB3 is functioning as a frame buffer..
04-26-2007, 20:16
Dr Laser

Despite the fact me running Pangolin's competitor system I embrace Pangolin. Excellent system.! Plus even basic package comes with all software you will ever need. And most important...their customer service is excellent.