Pangolin Abstract Generator *ROCKS*

I've had my QM-32 rig for a couple months now, and I'm slowly learning how to use it. I've watched most of the shows that come with the software, but I haven't looked through all the frame files yet. However, I did finally manage to fire up the abstract generator and play around with it some over the weekend... (Who's idea was it to hide this powerful software tool nested inside a modest drop-down menu within LaserShow Designer? It deserves better!)

:eek: OMFG!:eek:

I have *never* seen such beautiful patterns in my life! The colors! The incredible color blending! And the mesmerizing geometry... I don't even know where to begin when describing how beautiful the patterns were! (Analog RGB has *never* looked so awesome!)

I loaded up each and every one of the abstract files that came with Pangolin. And each time I was amazed at the resulting images. Seriously, I must have spent 3 or 4 hours staring at the patterns on the wall yesterday, and even more time today. (Much to my wife's dismay.) And it's not like I've never played with a lissajous box before. I own several different types, plus I spent a lot of time playing with the Alphalite over the past year an a half, so I'm not exactly new to abstracts...

I managed to make a few unique abstracts of my own, though none of mine were anywhere near as cool as the ones on the Pangolin disc. I did learn that, while you can accomplish some very cool-looking lissajous effects by just using the sine wave oscillators on the abstract generator, you can *greatly* improve the quality of the image if you use a simple geometric shape (an ilda file) as the waveform for the first oscillator and then choose one of the other waveforms (triangle, square, etc) for one of the other oscillators.

I tried to get some pictures of the patterns on the wall, but my camera couldn't capture them fast enough. (Low light = long shutter time = blurry images, because the patters are in constant motion.) I also shot some video, but I'm not sure how it's going to come out. (It looked OK on the TV, but I haven't digitized it yet - maybe later this week.) But take my word for it: the patterns are fantastic in real life!

I used to think that one of the strengths of the Alphalite package was the abstract generator. And while that is still true, I had no clue about just how much better the Pangolin abstract generator is. Wow! I mean, WOW! It will absolutely blow your socks off!

Last week my goal was to finally conquer the Showtime user interface and complete my first Pangolin show. But now that I've discovered the abstract generator, I think I'm going to put my goal on hold for a bit. There's far too much fun to be had just playing with the settings on the oscillators to see what comes up! (Sigh - there goes the last of my free time I guess!)

Adam

Wow, Nice find Adam

Abstracts are my favorite :)

Someday I will have to get one of those boards

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Originally Posted by Buffo

:eek: OMFG!:eek:

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HeHe! I built a rather complex abstract generator a long time ago, using AD534's to mulitply several signals together and get pretty complicated abstracts. When I got my first pangolin qm32 I basically threw the abstract generator in the trash. The pangolin abstract generator is outstanding. You may have noticed the "Z" on all the modulators, turn that on and select auto rotate and you will see what that does. You can get pretty creative with that part of pangolin and spend hours creating that perfect abstract for a show. Also, instead of using the standard color modulation routines, you can select a frame to use for color modulation, thats when things get really interesting! Another cool feature that you will find in showtime is "masking". You can create a show and have an abstract "hide" another frame behind it, only being visible when the center of the abstract opens up or whatever. There really is not much limit to what you can do, its almost overwhelming...

David

This sounds very cool. I never liked the sequenced frame idea so much, but this sounds more interesting by far. How much control can you set on what is changed or fixed, and how much of that control is realtime? Ideally I'd like it to be something like the Zyklus MIDI Performer device I once saw advertised. Or at least take MIDI input so a musical instrument can be used as the control surface. I'd want to play it the way I used to play an old analog monosynth (SCI Pro-One). If this thing is up to it, I think I might save to buy what is needed. The only reason I put so much emphasis for my own efforts to learn what it takes to control scanners is that I didn't think anything like that existed, but it looks like this abstract tool could be a way toward it, so long as it can replace automatic controls with human ones.

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Originally Posted by marconi

Abstracts are my favorite :)

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Hi Chuck!

Yeah, it's too bad you got called away so early during our first FLEM event... While we did play around a little bit with the Abstract generator on Dzurcher's rig, we probably would have spent more time on it if there had been more discussion about it's capabilities. (For sure I would have liked to see some of the other effects it could do!) If you can make it to SELEM this summer, I promise you there will be more abstracts to look at!

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Originally Posted by DZurcher

When I got my first pangolin qm32 I basically threw the abstract generator in the trash. The pangolin abstract generator is outstanding. You may have noticed the "Z" on all the modulators, turn that on and select auto rotate and you will see what that does.

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Hey David!

I completely agree; the software is *really* powerful. I messed around with the Z slider on a couple of the patterns, but I wasn't exactly sure what I was doing, so I didn't fool with it all that much. I guess I need to keep experimenting though.

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you can select a frame to use for color modulation, thats when things get really interesting!

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Hmmm... So the colors would cycle in the order that they appear for the frame you chose? That would be neat... I need to try that!

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Another cool feature that you will find in showtime is "masking". You can create a show and have an abstract "hide" another frame behind it, only being visible when the center of the abstract opens up or whatever.

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Saddly, I'm nearly certain that my older QM-32 system doesn't support masking. (I don't have support for projector zones either.) But I can see how that would be *very* cool... (Yet another reason to upgrade to a QM-2000!) :D

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Originally Posted by The_Doctor

This sounds very cool. I never liked the sequenced frame idea so much, but this sounds more interesting by far. How much control can you set on what is changed or fixed, and how much of that control is realtime?

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Hi Doc!

It *is* very cool. Much more interesting than static beams, and more visually entertaining than a simple animation. As far as control, I'd have to say that it's pretty much limitless. You can speed up or slow down the patterns to the point where they freeze in space. Same thing for the color cycle speed. (You can adjust the frequency in 1 hz, 1/10 hz and 1/100 hz increments for all the oscillators, and the range is from 0-1Khz.) You have three banks of three oscillators each (x, y, and z - for a total of 9 oscillators), plus modulation on each bank. You can select any waveform you want, including the resulting waveform from an existing ilda frame, for each oscillator. You also have size (gain) controls for each oscillator, plus a few other switches for things like auto rotate and such. Oh, and the x, y, and Z oscillators in each bank can either be ganged together or separated for even more effects. Plus, after you create an abstract, you can save it, then load that abstract *BACK* into the editor (as a waveform) and add even more effects to it! (But I found out that it doesn't take too many iterations of this trick before you end up with hash as your final pattern!)

As for real-time control, it's all real time - at least in the editor... As you adjust the oscillator sliders, the pattern is drawn in real time, so you can see how small changes will affect the pattern. Some patterns take 15 to 20 seconds to loop around through all the iterations before they end up back where they started. You can save the final pattern and use it in a show, or even assign it to a key in the LIVE! player and trigger the effect manually. You can also switch back to the Showtime screen and step forward to the next abstract you have loaded in the frame bank, then go back and tweak the settings for THAT file...

I don't know if the LIVE! player will allow you to adjust the abstract settings though... I think you'll need to have the abstract editor open to do that. And it sounds like you're looking to be able to run a show in real-time straight from the editor, which would be possible I guess, but I think it would be very complicated. (Lots of adjustments!)

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Ideally I'd like it to be something like the Zyklus MIDI Performer device I once saw advertised. Or at least take MIDI input so a musical instrument can be used as the control surface.

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Hmmm... Interesting idea! I see where you're heading with this, but honestly I don't know if the software supports it or not. Maybe with Live! Pro (which is the newer version that is included with the Pangolin QM-2000 system) you can use the midi input as a trigger... But I'm not sure about this. (Hopefully Bill Benner will chime in here with more details about your idea.) Like I said earlier, you could do everything from the editor, but I think it would be very difficult to make all the adjustments in real time to "play along" with a music file. It would probably be easier to set up a series of "stock" abstracts in the editor and then tweak them one by one as the music plays... (I know that works, because I did it over the weekend!)

If you get a chance to attend one of the UK get-togethers that are being planned for this summer, be sure to sit down next to someone that has a Pangolin setup and ask them to show you the abstract generator. You'll be amazed!

I'll try my best to get some of the video digitized later this week so I can give you some idea of what it can do.

Adam

Hi guys,

Thank you for your kind words about our abstract generator, and other aspects of the software. Just a few points (as usual) :D

First, Buffo, yes you do have masking. In Showtime you press Edit Animation, and then you will find Masking on the far right tab. You can find it described in the help file too.

Second, as David said, abstracts also have a Z axis, so they make real 3D entities. If you go into 3D view, and select a sort of angled view BEFORE starting the abstract generator, that is one way to see the 3D-ness. Another way is to press the "auto-rotate" button while the abstract generator is running.

Third, also as David said (at least I think it was David), you can select a "Frame as a waveform". For example, if you select the ILDA Test Pattern as the waveform in bank 1, what you will find is that you can run this test pattern at different rates (in this case, you specify it in Hz instead of PPS) and you can add other waveforms to it. Try loading a test pattern or simple visual image, then add a slow sine-wave and with only around 2% amplitude. You can also simulate having ground loops this way :D And when you choose Frame as a waveform for "color", it means that it takes the color from that frame and applies it to your abstract image. Mike Dunn does some of this in his shows.

Fourth, what I find particularly unique, and particularly useful is that you can "morph abstracts" on the timeline. Like, lets say you have one abstract that has the X frequency of bank 1 set to 30 Hz, and another abstract that is the same, with the only difference being that the X frequency is set to 60Hz. When you put these on the timeline and tell Showtime that you want to morph between abstracts, what it really does is "move the slider". So in other words, you can make things that look like they have a human feel, but you can do it perfectly synchronized to music.

You should pay particular attention to the "Money & Us" show by Mike Dunn which makes extensive use of this concept. And just for kicks, you should check out the beginning of the "Time" show, which does abstracts in a different way.

Anyway, I am glad you are finding more enjoyment than frustration. The abstract generator is just a bunch of sliders, and there are a whole lot of combinations of slider settings that will make spaghetti rather than a sensible image. One thing to remember about the abstract generator is that it is all "harmonics". If you find an abstract you like, try adjusting all of the frequencies by double, or by half. You will see the exact same image...

Best regards,

William Benner

PS: One abstract show I particularly enjoy, and will never forget, is one that David Zurcher showed me. This is a show that he shows to friends when describing the equipment he has spent thousands of dollars on. Hopefully David will one day reveal the secrets of this amazing show...

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Originally Posted by Pangolin

First, Buffo, yes you do have masking. In Showtime you press Edit Animation, and then you will find Masking on the far right tab.

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WOOT!!! :D Cool! Thanks for the tip Bill! I'll check it out.

RE: the Z axis and the auto-rotate button... I tried the auto-rotate button a few times, but don't think I had the Z oscillator set to anything at the time, so when it rotated the pattern just got flat. I need to play with that some more. 3D abstracts sound even cooler.!.

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you can select a "Frame as a waveform".

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Yeah, I tried this a few times already, and it's *very* cool. ;) Instead of starting with a simple circle (or square, or diamond), you can start with a complex shape like a 5 pointed star (or Hey! a 3D cube!) and then add all the other abstract effects to the shape.

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And when you choose Frame as a waveform for "color", it means that it takes the color from that frame and applies it to your abstract image.

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David mentioned this in his post above; I must have missed this feature when I was experimenting. (I probably didn't scroll down through the list of possible choices on the color cycle menu.:rolleyes: ) But I can see how that would really open up a whole new series of effects. I need to play with that some more...

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Fourth, what I find particularly unique, and particularly useful is that you can "morph abstracts" on the timeline.

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Wow! I need to try that! (And it's also getting close to what the Doctor was talking about in his post above... Though not quite the same, it's in the spirit of his idea.)

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You should pay particular attention to the "Money & Us" show by Mike Dunn which makes extensive use of this concept. And just for kicks, you should check out the beginning of the "Time" show, which does abstracts in a different way.

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You know, I don't think I've loaded that show yet... :o I had an initial problem with the audio file for it so I didn't watch the show. Later on I got so invloved with other things that I forgot to go back and watch it. But you're right, I do remember some very cool abstracts in that show. (We watched it a couple different times at FLEM.) I think I'll load up the frame file and have a look at what the settings for the abstracts look like.

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Anyway, I am glad you are finding more enjoyment than frustration.

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Enjoyment? Hell yeah! :D I'm having a blast! Shoot - the abstract generator alone is just about worth the cost of admission in my opinion. Mamba doesn't have *anything* like this, nor does Full-Auto. And while the Alphalite does have an abstract generator, it's *nowhere* near as powerful. Seriously, the colors and the patterns are positively mesmerizing. I could waste *WEEKS* just playing with the settings. (Of course, my wife would probably leave me if I did that!) :D Er - honey? Honey? Where are you going? :o

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The abstract generator is just a bunch of sliders, and there are a whole lot of combinations of slider settings that will make spaghetti rather than a sensible image.

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Yeah, but that's true of just about any abstract generator. I remember creating lots of patterns that just looked like hash with my Alphalite... Even my old-school analog lissajous generator will make garbage if you're not careful with the potentiometers. But as you said, it's all about matching the frequencies to get various multiples of the base oscillator frequency. (Though sometimes it pays to be slightly above or below the perfect harmonic setting.) I've had great results with even harmonics, but sometimes you can get some cool results with odd ones too (or even fractional harmonics - ie 1.33 times your base frequency).

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One abstract show I particularly enjoy, and will never forget, is one that David Zurcher showed me. This is a show that he shows to friends when describing the equipment he has spent thousands of dollars on. Hopefully David will one day reveal the secrets of this amazing show...

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Hehe! :D David gave me a copy of that show. (He also showed it to us at FLEM, so I was already in on the joke.)

Adam

For those of us who don't own Pangolin, how about some pics/videos?

Eric;

I've got some video, but I need to digitize it. As I mentioned in my first post (above), I'm hoping to have some free time later this week so I can get it uploaded. But yeah, it's on my TO DO list. :D

As for pictures - well, so far I haven't had much luck. The abstract images are normally in motion, so you need a relatively fast shutter speed in order to get a clean image. But since the room is dark, you need to leave the shutter open longer to get decent exposure. But slow shutter speeds = blurry images.

I guess I need to move the camera closer to the wall so more light will enter the lens. I'll try to take some more pics later this week - hopefully about the same time that I get the digitizing done. (Been busy as hell so far this week!)

Adam

If it only had "sample and hold" it could compete with my console.
Are you listening Bill?

Steve Roberts

Ok - I finally got a chance to digitize the video of the abstracts that I took earlier. I've uploaded the video to google video. Here is the direct link to the video. (You can also find it by searching for "Pangolin Abstract Generator".)

Now, I should warn you that the video quality isn't the greatest. The problem is that under the low light conditions, my camera just can't capture the intense colors of the laser. (Low light is *really* a problem when shooting laser show graphics, at least for my old Hi-8 camera.) I was projecting onto the angled part of a vaulted ceiling, so the popcorn stuff (blown ceiling) also added a little fuzzyness to the lines. Then too, the video compression doesn't help things. (But without it you'd have to download a 60 meg file!)

Finally, remember that a video camera doesn't have persistence of vision, so some of the effects look funny. But rest assured that in real life they look a whole lot better!

I had the music playing in the background ("Again", by Peter Heyt), and just selected various abstracts from a large list of them by clicking on the files in the frame window. It's very crude, but I wasn't trying to do a syncronized show. I just wanted to get some video of some abstracts, so I slapped it together as quick as I could. I could have loaded them into the Showtime Live! player I guess, but this was a quick and dirty way to get the video done.

The first pattern is one that I made. The rest are stock abstracts that come with Pangolin. The one that starts at about 1 minute and 15 seconds in is one of my favorites. The one that immediately follows is also very cool in real life, but on video you can't see the colors or the after-images so it doesn't look nearly as good. The one at 2 minutes and 15 seconds is also very cool, as is the one at 4 minutes.

Like I said, all the images look much better in real life. If I can get my hands on a better video camera I might try this again. But trust me, if you think any of the patterns in the video look cool, you have *GOT* to see them in real life.

Adam

Way cool Adam! :D

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Originally Posted by Buffo

Ok - I finally got a chance to digitize the video of the abstracts that I took earlier. I've uploaded the video to google video. Here is the direct link to the video. (You can also find it by searching for "Pangolin Abstract Generator".)

Now, I should warn you that the video quality isn't the greatest. The problem is that under the low light conditions, my camera just can't capture the intense colors of the laser. (Low light is *really* a problem when shooting laser show graphics, at least for my old Hi-8 camera.) I was projecting onto the angled part of a vaulted ceiling, so the popcorn stuff (blown ceiling) also added a little fuzzyness to the lines. Then too, the video compression doesn't help things. (But without it you'd have to download a 60 meg file!)

Finally, remember that a video camera doesn't have persistence of vision, so some of the effects look funny. But rest assured that in real life they look a whole lot better!

I had the music playing in the background ("Again", by Peter Heyt), and just selected various abstracts from a large list of them by clicking on the files in the frame window. It's very crude, but I wasn't trying to do a syncronized show. I just wanted to get some video of some abstracts, so I slapped it together as quick as I could. I could have loaded them into the Showtime Live! player I guess, but this was a quick and dirty way to get the video done.

The first pattern is one that I made. The rest are stock abstracts that come with Pangolin. The one that starts at about 1 minute and 15 seconds in is one of my favorites. The one that immediately follows is also very cool in real life, but on video you can't see the colors or the after-images so it doesn't look nearly as good. The one at 2 minutes and 15 seconds is also very cool, as is the one at 4 minutes.

Like I said, all the images look much better in real life. If I can get my hands on a better video camera I might try this again. But trust me, if you think any of the patterns in the video look cool, you have *GOT* to see them in real life.

Adam

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Did you use the DT40 galvos?

Wonderfull !! Is it a way to do the same with Mamba? :D

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Originally Posted by Pangolin

PS: One abstract show I particularly enjoy, and will never forget, is one that David Zurcher showed me. This is a show that he shows to friends when describing the equipment he has spent thousands of dollars on. Hopefully David will one day reveal the secrets of this amazing show...

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LOL! I could never give away my secrets to such a great abstract show! Actually, for those who haven't seen it, I made an all abstract show to the song Time is Tight by Booker T. & the MG's. The show was actually created to be just about as worthless as could be. The idea behind it is to show to someone who hasn't seen a laser show before or hasn't seen what I do with lasers and tell them about how I spent thousands just to do this! I can't really take credit for the original idea, the original idea actually comes from a guy named Joe Hopkins who gave me the idea of creating a cheap abstract show with the song Time is Tight. Anyway, I have a video of it posted on google: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...52849710706718 As usual, my camera is not the greatest at capturing abstracts, but you get the idea...

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For those of us who don't own Pangolin, how about some pics/videos?

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Ok, so here is a short video of what pangolin abstracts can really do! http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...88403120420293 Nearly everything in the video is abstract, there are a few frames like the starfield effect and what not. I don't know if I'm crossing any legal boundaries by posting this, certainly if I am I will remove it as soon as I'm notified. It is a small portion of one of my favorite abstract shows that comes with pangolin, BUY PANGOLIN!

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If it only had "sample and hold" it could compete with my console.

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Ok Steve, you've sparked by curiosity, what would the benefits be of a sample and hold circuit for an abstract generator?

David

I knew I had another video of an abstract from pangolin. Seems to be a bit slow loading up, I may have to just put this on google video...

https://home.comcast.net/~djzurcher/abs.MPG

David

Thanks Fred! Glad you liked it. I need to figure out a way to improve the color response of the camera... I think next time I'll try projecting on a scrim and have the camera behind it. That might increase the color saturation some.

Cruch: Yes, all the abstracts in that show were displayed with the DT-40 galvos. In fact, I had the scan speed turned down quite low (around 12K!), and the scan angle (gain) was also turned way down (31%). I could have easily trippled both the size and the scan speed, but then the pattern would have been too large for my ceiling. (Plus my scanners sometimes make funny noises when running at high scan rates on certain abstracts, which can't be good for them. Bill Benner warned me to always scan abstracts slowly at first, to prevent over-driving your scanners.)

sbk: The only way Mamba would be able to display the abstracts would be if someone that had a Pangolin board were to first create an abstract, and then save it out as a series of ILDA frames. I know this is possible, because Bill explained that this is how you can display abstracts on the FlashBack 3 hardware. But it's a tedious process, and you'd still need the Pangolin board to construct the abstracts first.

DJDevNull wrote a program (SPIRO) that will create some cool geometric patterns, and it will work with Mamba (or any other ILDA file editor). While not a true abstract generator, the results are similar - at least for a limited subset of shapes. Have a look at this thread for details about how it works. (And here's the direct link to download the software.)

David; I remember that Pink Floyd abstract show. We watched it at FLEM, and I think you and I watched it again at your place... I always felt that it was a bit heavy on the blue, green, and teal though. Still, you're right - it's an awesome show.

About Steve's comment about sample and hold... Hmmm. Couldn't you accomplish this by saving the abstract as a series of ILDA frames, then select the frame you want (your sample and hold), and use that frame as the input to the primary oscillator for a new abstract? Granted, it's not instantaneous like a true analog waveform synth would be, but it would work...

Adam

Thanks for the tips Adam! So if someone would once a day save a little full color Pangolin abstract show into ILDA frames and upload it, I'll be happy to test it on my newly built projector ;)

I missed the DJDevNull's post with its great software... I just tested it, it's working like magic lol (despite I'm programming too), great and simple idea!

Hi Guys,

Just a few quick notes (again).

About Sample & Hold, yes, it would be good if our abstract generator had it. Actually, we have a few abstract generator offerings -- one of them in the LD2000 series, and another in LivePRO. These are completely different ways of coming about "abstracts". Doug McCullough accomplishes sample & hold looks by using oscillator bank 2 "as a waveform" and digitizing a bunch of random points in a frame. William Moore also does this. It gives what William Moore calls a "popping shapes" effect.

As for further abstract developments, I am sure we will resume one day. In the mean time, we have more pressing matters which (believe it or not) are more important to many laserists, including laser safety (i.e. audience scanning in the US) and fuller support for multi-media. That's what we are spending most of our time on these days. But once we have completed these tasks we will revisit abstracts. I have some ideas which have not been realized in this business yet -- and areas which apparently other people are not looking...

Also, for recording laser shows in video, we use an old "tube" camera. Actually, we have two such cameras. One is an old Sony M3, and another is an old Ampex. Both of these are 3-tube cameras. The tubes have a sort of "burn in" effect, that is stronly similar to persistence of vision.

Best regards,

William Benner

About Steve's comment about sample and hold... Hmmm. Couldn't you accomplish this by saving the abstract as a series of ILDA frames, then select the frame you want (your sample and hold), and use that frame as the input to the primary oscillator for a new abstract? Granted, it's not instantaneous like a true analog waveform synth would be, but it would work...

Adam[/QUOTE]


yeah but true sample and hold grabs a bit of the 2nd oscillator , but the hold width and hold rate are variable. On the console, there is a "bleed through" level as well that allows a percentage of the base abstract to go through without sampling, so on ye olde console back in arizona, there is a knob for sample FM, sample Am, and sample bleedthrough. ｂｌｅｅｄ　ｇｉｖｅｓ　ｙｏｕ　ａ　ｒｏｗｓｅｔｔｅ　ｉｎ　ｔｈｅ　ｍｉｄｄｌｅ．
Also the am has dual polarity, so you have "innie" or "outie" images that you can continiously tune through. The FM and AM knobs can also be tied into a VFO. I'd post the schematic, but my artistic , full time professional , sometimes business partner in AZ would come to Ohio with his AK47
locked and loaded if I disclosed it. it also has a ｉｎｔｅｎｓｉｔｙ　channel tied to itthat the sh pulse width gates，　ｔｈｅ　ｃｏｎｓｏｌｅ　ｈａｓ　　ｓｅｐｅｒａｔｅ　ＲＧＢ／　ａｎｄ　ｉｎｔｅｎｓｉｔ ｙ　ｃｈａｎｎｅｌｓ，　ｓｏ　ｙｏｕ　ｃａｎ　ｆａｄｅ　ａｎｄ　ｓｐａｒｋｌｅ．

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haha thanks for the comments on my software. Glad to help out.

Ok Steve, you've sparked by curiosity, what would the benefits be of a sample and hold circuit for an abstract generator?

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ａｂｓｔｒａｃｔ　ａｒｔ　ｉｓ　Ａｒａｂｉｃ　ａｎｄ　Ｉ　ｄｏｎｔ　ｓｐｅａｋ　ｉｔ．　　Ｒｅｍｅｍ ｅｂｒ　Ｉ　ｈａｖｅｎｔ　ｕｐｇｒａｄｅｄ　ｔｏ　ａ　ｑｍ２０００　ｙｅｔ，　ｈａｖｅ　ｔｏ　ｍａｎ ｙ　ｍｅｄｉｃａｌ　ｂｉｌｌｓ　ｔｏ　ｐａｙ．Ｓｏ　Ｉ　ｈａｖｅ　ｏｎｌｙ　ｓｅｅｎ　ｂｉｔｓ　ａｎ ｄ　ｐｉｅｃｅｓ　ｏｆ　ｔｈｅ　ｎｅｗ　ａｂｓｔａｒｔ　ｇｅｎ　ｉｎ　ｐａｎｇｏ．　Ｍｙ　ｐａｒｔｎ ｅｒ／ｂｕｄｄｙ　Ｋａｒｌ　ｗａｎｔｓ　ｔｈｅ　ＳＨ　ａｄｄｅｄ，　ｂｕｔ　ｔｈｅｎ　ｉｆ　ｈｅｓ　 ｄｅｓｐｅｒａｔｅ，　ｈｅ　ｃａｎ　ｐａｔｃｈ　ｔｈｅ　ｐａｎｇｏ　ｏｕｔｐｕｔ　ｉｎｔｏ　ｔｈｅ　 ｃｏｎｓｏｌｅ　ａｎｄ　ｒｅｃｏｒｄ　ｔｏ　ａｄａｔ．

Ｓｔｅｖｅ　　


David[/QUOTE]

" 15 characters"

Very nice! I'm a big fan of manual controls, a nice console with hundreds of knobs and buttons would be great! I've always though it would be neat to build a console that could interface directly with pangolin's abstract generator, so instead of having to use your mouse to control oscillators you have a nice big console to do it, which would allow you to change multiple things at once.

David

" 15 characters"

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Originally Posted by DZurcher

Very nice! I'm a big fan of manual controls, a nice console with hundreds of knobs and buttons would be great! I've always though it would be neat to build a console that could interface directly with pangolin's abstract generator, so instead of having to use your mouse to control oscillators you have a nice big console to do it, which would allow you to change multiple things at once.

David

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That's why I mentioned MIDI.

Use two controller messages if you want more than 7 bits.

If you don't use MIDI you must reinvent a COMPLEX wheel.

If you do use MIDI, you get to use fun stuff like Doepfer's 'Pocket Electronics' modules and other cheap and powerful bits of hardware to build your own control surfaces with.

Of course, all this depends on the makers of Pangolin taking MIDI seriously. No-one responded to my mention of MIDI before, so either they're not, or they're keeping quiet while preparing nice suprises.

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That's why I mentioned MIDI.

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Hmm, actually, you can already use MIDI to interface with Pangolin's Live! feature... My thought was a serial console interface.

What must it do that MIDI can't do? I mean MIDI, not MIDI as currently used in Pangolin. It's versatile, fairly fast, there's a lot of stuff already made for it. Why isn't it enough?

I've never really had much interest in MIDI. Perhaps I will look into it some in the future, but just don't have any need for it now.

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I mean MIDI, not MIDI as currently used in Pangolin.

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Not quite sure I understand the meaning of that statement. Are there 2 different MIDI's?!

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It's versatile, fairly fast, there's a lot of stuff already made for it. Why isn't it enough?

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Perhaps it is capable of getting the job done, but I doubt there is already a console built that could give full control over all the adjustments in Pangolin's abstract generator. Just thinking about it in my head, a manual console for pangolin's abstract generator would need somewhere around 23 knobs and probably an equal number of buttons. Plus a method of selecting a frame file as a waveform for the 3 different oscillator banks, plus color. It'd be a pretty kick ass looking console in my opinion! I still think I would prefer it to be on a serial interface. Then it could be used on laptops and pc's without the need for anything extra...

David

MIDI is very functional, but there are some things that are better left to analog controls. It doesn't matter if it *could* be done with MIDI, the question is, would it be BETTER if it was done with MIDI. The fact that NONE of the abstract boards I've ever seen or read about used MIDI to control them (apart from beat matching and event triggering) tells me that several very intelligent people looked at it, and decided that going with discrete analog controls offered a better product.

The problem with MIDI is analogous to the problem with only having one tool in your toolbox. When all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.

Playing on a MIDI keyboard might seem like a cool way to control a laser show, until you actually look at all the extra controls on a true analog laser show controller. Then you realize that you've got lots of compromises to make if you're going to do everything in MIDI. Now, using a keyboard to TRIGGER effects is fine, but that's only a very small part of the overall controller.

That hammer and nail analogy doesn't work. It's self-limiting. A music keyboard puts out MIDI, but that isn't the same as saying that MIDI implies a keyboard controller!

I challenge the point about serial control, it's probably no more able than MIDI is for sending signals for laser controllers to use, and is harder to implement, excepting that many computers still have serial ports, a point which does nothing to address the ADC conversion for your control inputs.

It's also why I challenged this idea that Pangolin's use of MIDI is all you need to consider, it almost certainly is not. MIDI is always more diverse than any single adaptation of it.

First, look carefully at what kind of signals we should consider using it for. Obviously it is NOT analog waveforms. Neither serial OR MIDI could send those, you'd have local waveform or other fast signal generators in the laser controller itself. MIDI isn't for the neural feedback that controls muscles, it's for commands like 'turn left', 'step back', 'go this much faster' or whatever.

It's obviously NOT limited in what control messages can be sent. All it is is a protocol for sending control and data bytes for those controls, using cheap well-established and reliable hardware.

If you want to speed up the LFO in a Lissajous generator, you turn a knob. Obviously the LFO is an oscillator that uses gain and feedback to make it run, and this is local, but there is no reason a slow control can't tell it what speed to change to. This order CAN be sent through MIDI, it can be sent that way with more response than you can put into your hand to turn the knob.

And the knobs can be fitted to your own customised control surfaces. Buy Doepfer's 'Pocket Electronics' or other simple boards to make whatever glorious kind of control surface you can imagine. Use a downloadable freeware program Doepfer provide to program your own MIDI control codes for each knob and switch if the inbuilt codes and preset control arrays aren't ideal already.

The whole point of this is that it is NOT limited! Far from it. It's actually the only way that DIY projector-building people can go this far. Any other way, they'll be tied to the coat tails of those who can prototype and market a viable system from raw components. Doepfer did what they did to enable people to build their own analog synthesizers. We've already established in many discussions how close such control is applicable to laser control (that sound card thread, for example).

What MIDI allows is a complete fly-by-wire system. Most of the possible nasties like data jamming and panic messages to shut things off have been developed for tens of years, for a an industry that includes expensive large live shows. There aren't many systems better suited, and probably none cheaper or easier to use.

I was going to leave that post but I should add more, I really want to drive home the point that MIDI is more than adequate, and is probably the best system to use.

Lets say you want more controls than Doepfer's DIY board has. Easy: Get two, merge with a MIDI merge box. Job done. I think it might even have a merge and MIDI input built in! So you can chain as many as you want. A lot of this stuff is easy to find cheap on eBay now, you just need to think about it to know what to look for. Ideal pursuit for laser hobbyists whio already are adept at this, I imagine.

Now, how many many manual controls can you control at once? I put it to all here that a practised musician can almost certainly handle more than anyone, and this was built for that task. It's definitely good enough. MIDI doesn't just solve the messaging and wiring system, it solves the ADC system for your actual controls, and it's been designed specifically with a performer's realtime interface in mind, for machine control.

If a wheel that good exists, reach it and turn it to your use, don't reinvent it.


EDIT:
http://www.doepfer.de/pe.htm

Doc, I think you're overcomplicating the issue. We're talking about the suitability of using MIDI to control an analog synth verses controlling it manually using the very analog controls that make up the syth itself. I think MIDI introduces an extra step that adds complexity. Complexity is not a bad thing per se, but in this case it's unnecessary in my opinion.

With MIDI you need to break up each adjustment into discrete steps that you then need to define in your MIDI communications. Granted, with 8 bit resolution you'll probably have plenty of detail so that the fine adjustment would be similar to what you'd get from turning a knob, but why introduce the extra step (and complexity) if it's not needed.

I agree that your examples of mixing signals and working with multiple adjustments is valid. One can certainly make more adjustments with a single MIDI command than you could by using your fingers to make manual adjustments. But you need to ask yourself if that is really a benefit when it comes to an analog laser show effects generator...

My experience suggests that analog lissajous effects are more about making subtle changes to one or two parameters at a time, rather than trying to tweak 15 different potentiometers all at once. In other words, it's unlikely that you'd need the multi-adjustment abilities of MIDI. I also believe that the analog music synthesizers you mentioned are a wholly different application where the additional control possibilities of MIDI make good sense. I just don't think that laser show abstract generators have a need, or a use, for the added complexity. (But music synths do.)

It's not about re-inventing the wheel. It's about pushing a shopping cart through the grocery store to hold your groceries vs. driving your pick-up truck down the isles and loading your groceries in that. Remember that all the analog controls are still going to be there in the abstract generator. All you're doing is adding a control scheme to them.

But hey, if you want to try to build a lissajous box out of off-the-shelf MIDI components - by all means give it a shot! Maybe you'll come up with a product noone else has conceived of. (If you do, be sure to post some pics of the output here so we can see how it looks!) In fact, using the additional signal mixing abilities of MIDI, maybe you can create some unique effects that haven't been seen before. But as a general rule, laser abstracts tend to be pretty simple constructs. And often a simple problem is best solved with a simple solution. (And indeed, past analog laser show products have all followed that mold.)

Adam

On the face of it, adding a DAC to encode a control knob's output only to send it down a wire and convert it back to analog might sound daft, but an entire industry co-operated to take up SCI's invention of MIDI. Sequential Circuits International (they added that 'National' and abbreviated all later) made analog synths. They didn't do this because it was more complex, they did it because it was the ONLY way to keep it simple. :) The entire industry grabbed it joyfully with both hands and went away with it running, and didn't look back. Do you really want chains of analog wires in parallel, hanging off a complex bit of custom gear? Or would you rather have the chance that your gear and someone elses gear can easily talk together and do new stuff easily?

Suppose you took your stuff to a gig or a laserists convention? Which method would you really want most? You don't need to define steps either, you just put 0-5V on an analog input and let it get on with it, Doepfer (and Peavey, and many others) have done all the hard work already. If you can send an analog signal into a laser mod input, you can use this stuff. Similarly, firms like Kenton Electronics (the Pro 2000 for example) make MIDI to CV converters. Not only can these tools put out analog signals for conversion, they add LFO's to do direct scan controls with if people want to play with that. That's not why I brought it up though, I'm just hoping that Pangolin and others will adapt the software to allow MIDI control of EVERY feasible signal in reach. Let the performer decide what does and doesn't make artistic sense.

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But you need to ask yourself if that is really a benefit when it comes to an analog laser show effects generator...

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Of course it is. >:) For the exact same reason it benefits an analog synthesizer. People retrofit those things with MIDI all the time. There are companies whose existence depends on that trade. I'm sure they'd gladly do adaptations for analog laser scanning. This thread is about control of a digital system though, all you need there is a MIDI input and a driver, that's cheap stuff on a PC now. People are virtually giving away such things on eBay. Imagine being able to record your performance too, and edit it, and replay it, all from a very cheap sequencer, without even needing a host computer! All this can be done, and a lot more, using MIDI allows adapting of all kinds of weird and entertaining control and process devices.

Anything but use of a good exisiting system IS re-inventing a wheel. What's more, it's probably making it a totally proprietary and PRIVATE wheel! Learn from the synthesizer industry. They did this because it saved them from oblivion. Instead of fragmenting into a morass of private protocols they buried the hatchet and took up what SCI let them use royalty free. DZurcher's point about a serial interface makes sense because that too is a widespread data link system, but it hasn't a hope of competing with MIDI if you want a realtime performace control system for human/machine interface. MIDI was made for that, and every report of its death has been premature because it continues to be the best scheme around for the job.

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My experience suggests that analog lissajous effects are more about making subtle changes to one or two parameters at a time, rather than trying to tweak 15 different potentiometers all at once. In other words, it's unlikely that you'd need the multi-adjustment abilities of MIDI.

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MIDI is ONLY a way to send control and data bytes! It's as complex or as simple as you choose. I won't repeat what I said before, I'll focus on one issue that your comment raises. I grant that 7 bits is crude, too crude for a lot of fine controls, but where you want just a couple of very fine controls, MIDI is entirely suited to do it. Instead of one data byte, send two. That's 14 bits. This is standard fare for MIDI, the protocol has a few defined 'continuous controllers' for this task. They're only reserved numbers in a range of values, you can play fast and loose with them. The thing to do is to let the end user decide. (Those Doepfer tools make this easy and extremely configurable). The instrument maker merely has to enable their system to respond to paired messages of this kind, in cases where 7 bits of control resolution isn't fine enough.

This is why I have always liked to use the "PM" series of live desks. They have the ability (and sufficiens knobs and switches) to modulate patterns on the fly. Actually, a dozen push buttons for effect (modulation) selection and 6 pots to adjust levels would be plenty.

A bit more thought on the subject. As stated earlier, I have always used live desks for shows. Mainly because I like the hands on approach to operating, I knew where every one of my stored 200+ "patterns" were locared and could find them in the dark without looking at the buttons.:)

I also liked the ability to modify these at will, working live gives you the ability to react almost instantly to changes in the music, something not so easily done on a PC. Also, in Europe, beam shows are used much more frequently than graphic shows.

I agree that a good "interface" is definitely required between operator and a PC if you chose to work this way. I know Pangalin do their Live keyboard but it is very expensive here. I am also unsure that it would give sufficient control over the abstract effects generator. What I believe is required to perform this task would be something like thiis idea below. This would give full control over 3 sets of oscilators. Simply choose an initial "Shape" and add effects as required.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...SER/PANEL2.jpg


Here is a close up showing the details of each oscilator section in detail.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...SER/PANEL1.jpg

Each section has 3 rotary encoders.

1, Controls selection of modulation effect-
e.g. Vertical Move, Horizontal Move, Spin, Rove, Pulse, Step Out, Step Rotate, Random

2, Controls amplitude of effect

3, Controls speed of effect

A Backlit 2 line LCD display gives a readout of your selections. Usefull for making notes when good patterns appear, or trying to recreate one you accidently deleted. It is also essential to be able to see what you are selecting in the dark corner you are usually operating from.

A lower set of buttons chooses a waveform which can be overlaid to these effects. This will provide an additional level of movement and are extremely effective.

A further row of buttons gives basic command controls.
Invert (inverts selected effect eg Spin C/W Spin C/C/W)
Reset (sets all selections to 0)
Save


Three of these modules should fit nicely onto a standard 3U 19" panel and blend in nicely with Mr Pangolins live desk.

Connection to a PC could be either RS232 or USB. This would make everything nice and dandy with no connectivity problems to almost any PC.

This is the kind of interface that would tempt me to use a PC based system over a live desk. I also willingly offer my services as a Beta tester should this project move beyond my initial ramblings.:D

If anyone needs additional info on these types of analogue control systems, please let me know. I can put them in touch with George McDuff at Chameleon Technology. He has almost 25 years experience in designing and building analogue laser desks. Fortunately for me, his workshop is only actoss the road form where I live.

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Originally Posted by QUAZAR

Mainly because I like the hands on approach to operating.

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Same here, I'm a huge fan of being able to take over what is going on with abstracts with a bunch of knobs and buttons. I'm not completely familiar with Pangolin's Live! console except that I know its a serial interface. And I'm not so sure that you can adjust abstracts with the console at all. A seperate box aside from the Live! console would be very nice but I think it would require alot more knobs and buttons than you might think. Here is a screen shot of the Pangolin abstract generator. I'm thinking it would need about 2 dozen knobs, a whole mess of buttons and the ability to still choose frames as waveforms from the console.