Hope this isn't controversial... Video showing EMS8000 with 6mm mirrors

Hi folks,

I realize that there is always a kind of "hazard" with doing a review of a competitors' product, but I mostly do this sort of thing to combat misinformation in the marketplace. (Furthermore, other companies are always free to do their own video reviews and comparisons if they want...)

Over the years there have surely been exaggerated claims of one form or another (usually beam size or scan speed or both), and since we endeavor to always tell the truth about what our own scanners do, we're almost always at a disadvantage, since exaggerations are always a whole lot more impressive than the truth...

Nevertheless I am happy to report that these particular scanners were advertised as being able to work with 6mm beams and -- from the standpoint of beam size alone, they will actually do that! Half joking, I'd say that I'm not sure if this sudden rush to truth was encouraged by the "mirror sizing" chapter of my book or simply the periodic razzing in public, but in any event I am happy to see when products actually live up to their advertisements.

I don't know if these scanners are advertised as being able to go faster than 30K with 6mm or not because, in fact, these scanners and this configuration isn't even being advertised at all. However, I *thought* I saw projector manufacturers claiming something around 60K with these scanners.

In any event, the video can be seen here:
https://youtu.be/958aGuL4sFE

Personally I'd say that they're fine for beam shows, but I don't expect them to win any awards for graphics, and I'd be very skeptical if there are any claims of greater than 30K performance -- based not only on what I'm seeing in the projected image, but also the laws of physics, given the specifications that are clearly presented.

Civil comments and questions are welcome ;)

Best regards,

William Benner

picardfacepalm.gif

I'll see your face palm and raise you another face palm:

Attachment 50922

i hate to bow to peer pressure, but i do love star trek memes.

Attachment 50923

OK, since no one else it taking the bait, I will. :)

First, this was interesting, Bill, as all your talks are. I appreciate you sharing this kind of information. A couple questions, though. I don't own a set of EMS scanners, but aren't those amps and galvos supposed to be tied down to a base-plate before pushing them? (These aren't cool running 506's we are talking about, 'ya know!) Do you think this had any impact on their performance? I know it wouldn't make a difference for mirror resonances and such, but are you sure heat wasn't a factor with them cutting out when scanning wide at 30Kpps? If not, its interesting to note that they may be helped by a PSU upgrade.

Performance aside, one thing that I assume Eyemagic has in its favor is availability. I think the EMS-8000s been available for years and I'd bet that if I put my money down, I'd have a set in my hands within a week. (Fair warning, there is a set-up coming. :) ) Just pulling dates out of the air . . if someone - let's say a random US based customer who owns 7 sets of 506's and lots of other Pangolin products - placed an order for a set of Saturn 1bs back on August 15th . . when would such person receive said product?? <cough cough> ;)

Now just because I know you can take a bit of good-natured ribbing, may I point out that if Pangolin's CEO wasn't posting reviews of competitors products, he might have more time to produce Pangolin products? ;) To any others that might be reading this, I just heard yesterday that you just trained another of your bright colleagues to make the Saturn 1bs and I have no doubt that this will hopefully free said CEO to do other things . . like say finish the Mach Mini . . or the next version of QS/Beyond . . or that cool Christmas thingy from three years ago or . . (Sorry, this is like shooting fish in a barrel!) ;)

Bottom line is that I'm sold on Scannermax and just about every Pangolin product. Like anything else though, we all want More/Faster/Better/Cheaper. :)

Warmest Regards,

-David

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Originally Posted by swamidog

i hate to bow to peer pressure, but i do love star trek memes.

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WOW, cool!!! Good one!!

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Originally Posted by dkumpula

aren't those amps and galvos supposed to be tied down to a base-plate before pushing them?

<snip>

Do you think this had any impact on their performance? I know it wouldn't make a difference for mirror resonances and such, but are you sure heat wasn't a factor with them cutting out when scanning wide at 30Kpps?

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Well that's a great question, and at first that's what I assumed too. But if it was a heat problem it would have taken longer to happen, and once it cut out it, the cut-out would have lasted longer too. You see, the power amplifiers do have a kind of temperature sensor on them, and once they reach a certain temperature they will shut down. However, they shut down for a number of seconds until the heat sink cooled down, and then they would start back up again.

So your assumption is the same as my assumption, but then once I investigated, I found that these are drawing 2.5 amps to do that test pattern.

I'd also like to clarify one thing based on what you wrote above. You wrote "when scanning wide at 30K". Remember, the cut-out happened at 22 degrees. In my book that's not "wide"...

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Originally Posted by dkumpula

If not, its interesting to note that they may be helped by a PSU upgrade.

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Well what would have been "helped" is that they wouldn't have shut down at 22 degrees. The image quality would not be affected.

Also, current draw is proportional to image size. So this means the power supply would have had to supply 5 amps just to get to 44 degrees. 7 amps (or so) for 60 degrees. Most people don't have those kind of power supplies laying around...

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Originally Posted by dkumpula

Performance aside, one thing that I assume Eyemagic has in its favor is availability.

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Well you might be right about that. I know, in the past, when we wanted to buy some, it took a long time for delivery. I've heard the same from some clients, but this was perhaps a year ago. I'm not sure what their current delivery schedule is. Nevertheless, if I had to guess, I'd say that you are probably right about that.

HOWEVER, you'd have to take the very first part of your sentence very seriously -- and set "Performance aside". If this level of performance is satisfactory for your application, then fine. For the client that sent us these scanners for a mirror replacement, they're really not happy with the performance. I can say the same about a client in Canada. Basically people come to us when they're not happy with what they can get elsewhere, and more quickly.

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Originally Posted by dkumpula

I think the EMS-8000s been available for years

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I'm not so sure about that David. If you look on PL forum, you'll find discussions of this scanner at around the same time we were shipping C506. I don't think it's quite "years", but it could be that time is merely flying for me...

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Originally Posted by dkumpula

Just pulling dates out of the air . . if someone - let's say a random US based customer who owns 7 sets of 506's and lots of other Pangolin products - placed an order for a set of Saturn 1bs back on August 15th . . when would such person receive said product?? <cough cough> ;)

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Hehe. Well actually David we've had your set of Saturn 1 ready since shortly after SELEM. You and I were engaging in some emails, and then the thread suddenly stopped. I'm still waiting on an answer from you as to whether we're only going to be shipping the S1, or if we're also going to be shipping some other gear so that you can do some work for us. Please pick up the email thread so we can get this settled one way or another. In any event, your S1 are sitting on the shelf and ready to ship.

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Originally Posted by dkumpula

Now just because I know you can take a bit of good-natured ribbing, may I point out that if Pangolin's CEO wasn't posting reviews of competitors products, he might have more time to produce Pangolin products?

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That's an entirely fair point! And ordinarily I don't spend time posting reviews, or even commenting on PL. In this case, I made the video for the client who sent me those scanners, and then decided to make a brief post along with the video. I also believe the updated information is helpful to PL members. In the past, apertures and scan speeds and scan angles have been greatly exaggerated. I'm happy to report that, at least on one front (aperture), advertisements are closer to reality.

Thanks for the civil questions and comments!!

Best regards,

William Benner

Fair points, Bill and you know I'm sold on Scannermax products. :)

Regarding our side discussion, I was going to provide you back some statistics regarding performance on the silvered mirrors with IR and 405nm, but I haven't received them back yet (from X-Laser) in order to test. Regarding the other equipment, I'm about two years behind in projects (more if you include what is on my wife's list for me . . ), so please just send the 1bs for now (Stat!) so I can wrap up that project. :) Also just to note: I did call Pangolin on Friday, but your note later that note provided an opportunity to poke fun at you that was too hard to resist. ;)

Now back to the mach minis and the Christmas thingy . . How long till we see these??

-David

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Performance aside, one thing that I assume Eyemagic has in its favor is availability.

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I will agree here and go further to say it may be the only thing, but it is important.

I'm going to throw this out there, as I see it; there are two broad classes of users.

There is the manufacturer that tests and decides to order a large quantity of the components they will need to finish a product. And, unless they are simply maintaining inventory for a current product line, they will order all or nearly all of the components at the same time. There can be a lot invested in hardware that sits around and the expertise that isn't being utilized while they wait for a tardy item. A quote always indicates a delivery date (at least an estimated one).

The individual builder can be a hobbyist or a sophisticated researcher, this is not an ego thing in any way. But, they will probably be building up a system progressively. Once they have made the decision about which scanner they want, then they buy it.

Both users want something when they want it, but as I see it, the medical scanner manufacturer might want 10,000, 506's, but could be supplied 100/month, regularly. While the single use consumers want them in dribs and drabs, sporadically. Are the big order customers also finding delivery delays to be problematic?

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Originally Posted by planters

Are the big order customers also finding delivery delays to be problematic?

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No, and here's why. The large companies can place a binding purchase order, which allows us (if we need to) to comfortably staff up for a given requirement.

There's another aspect which is that when a single customer places an order for 1,000 or 10,000 or 100,000 units (the latter we normally simply license to them and have them do the building), we get into "training and support". But this "training and support" is done a single time for the large sale.

In the case of the single-piece hobbyist, the "training and support" is done once -- but for the single order. Moreover the hobbyist will likely ask many more questions, and take a lot longer to get up and running -- thus the cost of providing the "training and support" is higher. So it becomes clear that the support burden is higher for the single-piece order rather than the very large order.

In the mean time, we do what we can to accommodate hobbyists in and among the companies placing large orders. Pieterjan got his within a few days. David would have received similar delivery had email communication not (apparently accidentally) stopped.

Bill

Finally! All the magic about Eyemagics is clarified.

Thanks Bill.

Hehe. I'm not sure what is clarified and what is not. I reported my experience and shone some light on actual specifications and highlighted the fact that if you remove material from the back side of a mirror, you're going to warp the mirror. Other than that, I'm not sure what's so clear...

Bill

Attachment 50953

The screenshot attached (areas of interest highlighted) advertise these as 60K @ 8 degrees, with a 6mm beam

Bill,
The projector in the above post seems way over priced and now is suspect for being way over spec-ed as well.

What about ordering a few projectors that are advertised with EMS scanners and retrofitting a Saturn scanner and demo-ing these side by side at a show and/or on YouTube? The manufacturer will be hard pressed not to offer Saturn as an "upgrade".

:cat:

HB is now a laserwurld company! *vigil
Specs are just for "general guidance" !!!!! and shouldn´t be taken too "literally". >:)
In my experience most of the interesting bits are what are NOT EVER included in the specs......like internal case or component temps compared to ambient temp for example! *warn
Cheers :)

Specs shouldnt be taken too literally?

In this case the scanners are advertised to do 60K at 8 degrees and they really only do around 30K at 8 degrees

What if Chevrolet told everyone their new car gets 50 miles per gallon (or whatever scale you want to use) and once peole got it home they found it really only gets 25 miles per gallon?

And Chevrolet said "oh well our specs are just for general guidance and not to be taken literally"

Wouldnt go over too well would it?

Especially when this laser costs more than a brand new Chevrolet!

:cat:
Don´t worry about it mate, ...I don´t think LW is thinking of buying Chevrolet in the near future! >:)
Cheers :)

are those specs from EMS or from HB-Laser?

looking at the sadly defunct one stop page i see:

Eye-Magic Infinity EMS 8000 Scanners

Set includes:

2 EMS-8000 Infinity 60K Scanners with 99% Dielectric Mirrors
2 EMA-2000 Servo Amplifier Cards
1 Scanner Mount (Left & Right Beam Input)
2 Cables Sets (Scanner to Servo, Power, and Signal)
Supports 3.8.0mm apertures
60 Degree Scan Angle

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Originally Posted by rns0504

Specs shouldnt be taken too literally?

In this case the scanners are advertised to do 60K at 8 degrees and they really only do around 30K at 8 degrees

What if Chevrolet told everyone their new car gets 50 miles per gallon (or whatever scale you want to use) and once peole got it home they found it really only gets 25 miles per gallon?

And Chevrolet said "oh well our specs are just for general guidance and not to be taken literally"

Wouldnt go over too well would it?

Especially when this laser costs more than a brand new Chevrolet!

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I posted the HB specs. The Eye Magic page has nothing about this scanner (that I can find at least). I'd be interested to find the specs direct from EMS if someone has a link

60K with a 3.something mirror seems plausable

agreed. EMS is bad about posting specs.. and just about any other technical details.

it is possible HB got the specs wrong. we have seen in the past problems where vendors mistakenly post specs for the wrong mirror size.

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Originally Posted by rns0504

I posted the HB specs. The Eye Magic page has nothing about this scanner (that I can find at least). I'd be interested to find the specs direct from EMS if someone has a link

60K with a 3.something mirror seems plausable

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Let me step in here.

1. Historically HB has been a great company. We have a long relationship with them at Pangolin. HB was started by the technical wizard who formerly worked at LOBO. Great people, and generally great products too.

2. I've seen bad specs posted by good people in the past. Even Kvant was advertising 80 degree scan angle until I pointed it out to them. (Other companies still are...) I believe this comes from the "motor spec" itself. Cambridge advertises that the MOTOR (i.e. the galvo) can go 80 degrees. Heck, our scanners can go 110 degrees. But the optical scan angle achievable once you put mirrors on it is something completely different.

3. The video that I made shows my experience, nothing more. Moreover, it's the experience I had with a scanning system that doesn't even belong to us -- belongs to a customer who asked that we replace one of their mirrors.

Nevertheless, knowing optical scanners and having derived the specs, I don't believe that a scanner manufactured with Cambridge 6800-like construction and 6800-like specifications and a 2mm shaft would be able to drive mirrors for a 6mm aperture at 60K and 8 degrees. If that happens let me know, and we'll put whatever magical dust they use on our scanners ;-)

4. I've taken another look at the advertisement Ryan found. Actually this could be a case of clever advertising. It says "Scanner" and then says 60K at 8 degrees. It is a completely separate place where it says "Beam specification: 6mm". If the EMS800 is used by itself, with tiny mirrors, and with no regard for what we call "Quality of motion", then it may be possible for these scanners (all by themselves) to go 60K at 8 degrees. The advertiser could thus clear that what they've advertised is not an exaggeration. The scanners (all by themselves) can go 60K at 8 degrees, and the laser has a 6mm beam. At no point in the advertisement did they actually say that these particular scanners driving those particular mirrors would go any speed.

Nevertheless, if this is the tact, they're certainly not helping clarify things for the marketplace. But then again, is it their responsibility to clarify things for the marketplace? You tell me...

In any event, it shows what we're up against. At Pangolin we really want to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about our products and specifications. But the truth can be so much less exciting than fantasy!

Bill

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Originally Posted by Pangolin

Nevertheless, if this is the tact, they're certainly not helping clarify things for the marketplace. But then again, is it their responsibility to clarify things for the marketplace? You tell me...

Bill

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yes. i think so. i think it's the responsibility of all vendors.

(edit)

it may be that the marketing department does not have the same understanding of galvo mechanics as the engineering department does. either way, it is confusing. intentional or not.

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Originally Posted by rns0504

What if Chevrolet told everyone their new car gets 50 miles per gallon (or whatever scale you want to use) and once peole got it home they found it really only gets 25 miles per gallon?

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Happens with every car I have ever bought unless there's an officer behind me...

I have a presentation conference paper on past industry standard scanner motor definitions at home. I'll scan it in. Then someone can submit it to ILDA Techcom so they can secure any rights needed. Then we have something that has been accepted by industry and can be adopted by ILDA to help cut down the weasel words we often see... I'm not an ILDA member right now, so it will not be me. But I will work with some one who is to adapt standardization terms as needed...

Steve

Hmm....

try to write what i want to say... hope you understand... :-) . English is not my "Mother Language"
I own 506 Scanners (modified Amp by Bill ), CT 6800, 6210, 6215 "Big Block Driver", Surly also Raytrack, Litrack... this Time no Saturs because when i want them.
the delivery Time was too long. So i choose EMS 8000 . Never see them before. Why ? Not because someone say the do 60K / 8 Degrees. I know that only a few do this in real Live.
But because my Projektor has an 6mm Beam ( Arctos Elektus, (3W Green, 5W Red, 6W Blue ) ) and i need big Mirrors. After contacting Eyemagic they ask me for my Exact Beam (width / height ) and
send me the Scanners incl. Mirrors which exactly match. And the Result is OK in my Eyes comaring Result with Price. With Scanningspeeds of about 30-40K also Graphics are looking good.
I believe that the Saturns can give a better Result but as i said, in this Time i couldnt buy them . The 500$ more are surly not the Problem when we talk about a Projektor which is 20K Euro.
About Spects and Reality: No need to talk about. All People which are in this Business will try Products and then they have their own Spects..Spects they see which their own Eyes.
About your Video , Bill: I dont had the Time to reproduce your Results. But if i would wrote such a Post ( i never will do because in my Eyes sometimes it is better so say nothing )
the Result should be reproduced with more than one Set. The "little Wars" between some Companys are a waste of Time in my Eyes . Sadly to see that you have Time left for this.
You always get what you pay. And a.e. if you pay 79$ for a USB DAC you wont get syncron X/Y and Coloroutput when the Designer saves 2 or 3$ for an extra XY DAC and is using internal
DACs for Axis and external for Colors :-) . Are lower Prices more important ??
There are surely also some Products from which i know they didnt match their Spects but most People know of theese Products in the "Laseruniverse" :-)

I develop some Products by my own and only a few People resell them and also not in big Mass. But the know what they are saying.
Bill, as Answer of the Question why the FB4 is not putting out DMX your German Reseller wrote at Laserfreak.net that the Mass of DMX Data is too much without disturbing the Laseroutput.
From Technican to Technican : Sounds like a Joke , the controller used on your FB4 has no Problems to feed 1-3 DMX Universes beside doing the Laseroutput.

@All, please go inside you self. I thought about 3 or 4 Days writing this or not. The Lasershow - Market is not really big compared with other Products. Sure, we all fight
to get as much customers as possible. But i will go on as i did the last 12 Years. Better say nothing as something bad about others.

And now: Throw all Shit on the small, bad German Guy :-) I can handle it :-)

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Originally Posted by Guido

About Spects and Reality: No need to talk about.

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/begin sarcasm/ I love statements like this :rolleyes:. OK Guido, so nobody will ever talk about specs any more. /end sarcasm/

Did somebody crown you king? Is this exclusively your forum, and therefore when you come forth with a decree that "no need to talk about", we should all simply stop talking about it?

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Originally Posted by Guido

All People which are in this Business will try Products and then they have their own Spects..Spects they see which their own Eyes.

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Guido, why did you state that your beam was 6mm? Why not call it "6 Guido units"? After all, that would be "specs they see which their own eyes"...

The answer is obvious. If everybody used their own units, then nobody could ever build things with parts from multiple vendors. I'd say "6 Bill units" and need to convert it to "6 Guido units", etc. You said "6mm" because that has value and meaning. People can relate to it.

If, as you say, everybody used "Spects they see which their own Eyes" surely the world would be a much worst place. We'd all be back very close to the stone ages and progress would be very difficult.

Moreover, when you wrote: "All People which are in this Business will try Products and then they have their own Spects" what the hell makes this "business" any different from every other business in which specs are relied upon? If I bought a brand new Mac Book Pro with 1TB drive, and it showed up with less, I'd be dissatisfied. And no computer company could ever get away with saying "well we just have our own specs".

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Originally Posted by Guido

About your Video , Bill: I dont had the Time to reproduce your Results.

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Hehe. Don't have time to turn on the projector and open the iPhone and start recording? I will remind you that this wasn't a highly produced video!! All it was, was a quickie iPhone video all done in a single take. The entire thing only took as long as the length of the video (a few minutes)... Guido, you don't have a few minutes?

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Originally Posted by Guido

( i never will do because in my Eyes sometimes it is better so say nothing )

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... and allow misinformation, disinformation and bad information to flourish?

Guido don't you dare complain later on in life that competitors passed you by and customers didn't buy your software or hardware, etc. because you didn't speak up when someone else came onto the marketplace claiming to have a better product, and customers bought from them instead of you. By "saying nothing" you're not doing your customers, or yourself any favors!

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Originally Posted by Guido

the Result should be reproduced with more than one Set.

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Sure they should!!! Abso -- fricken -- lately!!! In my very first post, I encouraged other people to make their own video. And in my post that preceded yours, I took time to point out that this is singularly my experience.

Abso -- fricken -- lately, in an ideal case several tests should be performed. And if anyone wants to send me their scanners to repeat the tests, I will gladly do so. Or -- better yet -- if anyone wants to make their own damn video, all the better!

Nevertheless, the specs are the specs, and physics says that those specs are reality (I can post the inside dimensions of the motor, number of turns on the coil, FEA results, etc.) and physics says that this motor can not drive that mirror at 60K at 8 degrees. More videos would only help to reinforce that fact.

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Originally Posted by Guido

The "little Wars" between some Companys are a waste of Time in my Eyes

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/begin sarcasm/ Thank you for sharing what's a waste of time in your eyes. /end sarcasm/

But again I ask -- did someone crown you king? Is this exclusively your forum? What if someone else DOES NOT think it's a waste of time? Do they matter? Guido, what makes you think you matter so much that the opinions and curiosity of others should be overruled?

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Originally Posted by Guido

Sadly to see that you have Time left for this.

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Time to flip open the iPhone and make a five minute video, while needing to examine the scanners anyway before changing a mirror?

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Originally Posted by Guido

Bill, as Answer of the Question why the FB4 is not putting out DMX your German Reseller wrote at Laserfreak.net that the Mass of DMX Data is too much without disturbing the Laseroutput. From Technican to Technican : Sounds like a Joke , the controller used on your FB4 has no Problems to feed 1-3 DMX Universes beside doing the Laseroutput.

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I have no idea what you're even talking about because I haven't read the particular post that our "German reseller" supposedly put on Laserfreak.net. In any event, please send me an email about this directly and I will investigate. And I agree with you, the FB4 has enough power to run a zillion additional peripherals in addition to the laser. So there must be some misunderstanding on the part of the German reseller or on the part of someone else.

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Originally Posted by Guido

Sure, we all fight to get as much customers as possible.

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We don't "fight". We offer products to the market and customers either buy them or not. When there is misinformation, we try to correct it. I hope you don't believe that this is "fighting"... After all, is the US and European governments "fighting" with Volks Wagen for purposely misstating their emissions?

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Originally Posted by Guido

Better say nothing as something bad about others.

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What "bad" did I say about the EMS? Watch the video again and again. Read my own posts. I congratulate them for finally getting mirror specs right! Half way through the video I exclaimed that their thermal conductivity was "impressive for a small motor with conventional construction". Is this "bad"? Are you sure you watched the same video and read the same posts?


Bill

Plop poop thrown. Bill why you bother with us amazes me. You surely don't do it cuz it makes you money. Retail, the land of the insane.... Thanks though for caring to try. Why people think stating the truth means your fighting I will never understand. I do however understand the response from Cambridge now when I wanted a single piece of scanners a ways back. Not worth their time.

Stay safe and enjoy the big blow.

And now: Throw all Shit on the small, bad German Guy :-) I can handle it :-)

As a fellow German, I'm glad to accommodate.


Do you sell anything? I hope not. I can't attribute this illogical confusion to language skills. This would generate random errors, not sloppy, defensive accusations.

Bill,

The only suggestion I would make to you is to just let him go on. He is painting a very clear picture for anyone who bothers to look.

When you get into an argument with someone that is digging his own grave, don't interfere. Just saying...:p

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Originally Posted by rns0504

What if Chevrolet told everyone their new car gets 50 miles per gallon (or whatever scale you want to use) and once people got it home they found it really only gets 25 miles per gallon?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksw...ssions_scandal

In EU countries, misleading advertising is now supposed to be outlawed. See UK version of the law here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...0081277_en.pdf

Couldn't comment at all on any companies in particular. Just giving a general picture.

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I do however understand the response from Cambridge now when I wanted a single piece of scanners a ways back. Not worth their time.

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In the case of the single-piece hobbyist, the "training and support" is done once -- but for the single order. Moreover the hobbyist will likely ask many more questions, and take a lot longer to get up and running -- thus the cost of providing the "training and support" is higher. So it becomes clear that the support burden is higher for the single-piece order rather than the very large order.

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Cambridge should have helped you, it doesn,t matter if the cost for them are higher for selling a single unit. The only reason that bigger companies don,t want to putt effort in small orders is because their is no money to be made. In my book every customer is king no mather if the customer needs allot of support and buys only a single unit. The big companies only run fast when you want to have allot of them wich gives smaller companies that do 1 off items the advantage. If we getting things made by a metalshop you need to do a larger quantity to justify the price per unit. The whole world turns on quantity, the bigger amount you can invest the cheaper you can sell the product with keeping the same profit margin. Small companies can grow big fast if allot of money comes in to invest in even bigger stock. But that money needs to come from somewhere and its not going to be from 1 or 2 orders that you get from hobbyists. Crowdfunding shows clearly how fast things can go, as soon as allot of money is raised suddenly you can do bigger quantities. If you go to a bank they say no but with crowd funding you can beat the system.

The bottomline is that even when your a bigger company needs to remember where they comes from so ALL customers should be threated the same no mather if the order is big or small.......

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Originally Posted by planters

As a fellow German

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AHA, I hadn't put it together until now, but yes, your last name does end with "er" doesn't it! So does mine! My grandparents on both sides immigrated to America from Koln.

Thanks for pointing that out!

Bill