Audience Scanning in the US

So I just so happened to see the Roger Waters concert last night in Milwaukee, and there was a lot of audience scanning with the laser...

So my questions are, what are the reprocussions of the violation of the no audience scanning law? How stringent is it? And when it comes down to it do people really care? I was just completely thrown off by it last night.

On another note, the show was pretty interesting... very simple, something you dont see very often for a show like this. The second half was Dark Side of the Moon from front to back. Like I said it was an awesome show. If it's coming around you, go see it, it's worth your $

considering two big badass highly professional laser companies did the aud scanning you can bet it was not illegal, but carefully planned. I know the head guy at one of them and met the other at a conference, and you can bet that was safe. Without going into details, for those who can afford it and prove they can do it safely, your about to see a trial turnaround in audience scanning in the US, but it will not be available to Joe Blow average laser user, nor will it be quickly cloned.

I didn't get to see it, but I have a professional friend highly experienced in audience scanning that did, and Karl felt it was a little hot, but still safe.

Neither of the teams at Magic fire or Lightwave would risk their careers and companies doing it without doing it right.

Steve Roberts

Just a few quick points (as usual :D )

There are at least two currently-active variances for audience scanning in the U.S. The company doing the Roger Waters tour is employing one of the two active variances.

There is a lot of test equipment being employed, and also "verification" equipment (for example audience members are being videotaped so someone can't claim to have been hit by a stray beam and file a frivolous lawsuit, etc.).

Because of the professionalism of the players and high profile of these events, rest assured that these tours are being conducted as legally as humanly possible, and the companies have gone further than other companies have to date (for example, the videotape thing) to make sure they stay out of hot water...

Best regards,

William Benner

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Originally Posted by mliptack

So I just so happened to see the Roger Waters concert last night in Milwaukee

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You mean Ryan Waters, maybe? As in the Pink Floyd Laser Spectacular that is being produced in conjunction with Paramount?

If so, then that's the same show that several of our southeastern memebers attended back in march. (See this thread for details.)

When I saw it, the audience scanning was done via diffraction gratings only. There were thousands of beams in the audience. After the first show (we attended both nights) I asked Ryan about it and he confirmed that the power in each beam was really low, only a mw or two. But with the rest of the lights down low and a lot of haze in the air it looked damn cool.

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So my questions are, what are the reprocussions of the violation of the no audience scanning law? How stringent is it? And when it comes down to it do people really care? I was just completely thrown off by it last night.

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I'm sure the CDRH cares about it, and if it's not spelled out in your variance I'm sure you can get in trouble for it. But how often does the CDRH show up to check on a laser show? I have a feeling the chances of getting caught are pretty slim. It's just that the potential penalties are large!

Then too, guys like Ryan aren't going to risk their livelyhood doing something stupid. They've got a reputation to uphold.

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On another note, the show was pretty interesting... very simple, something you dont see very often for a show like this. The second half was Dark Side of the Moon from front to back. Like I said it was an awesome show. If it's coming around you, go see it, it's worth your $

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I'll second that! We had a great time. I think the best place to sit is in the front row of the balcony. (Assuming the theater has one.) Barring that, the next best place is about 25-30 rows back from the stage. We watched it back-to back over a Friday - Saturday, and if they had scheduled a show for Sunday I would have paid another $28 to see it a third time... It was that good.

Adam

Actually I think it is Roger Waters from Floyd that is touring. It is not the whole group but I bet it is a good show. Makes me wonder how they split the rights up for songs when the split... :confused:

Yeah I figured the beam was enlarged, it seemed to be, and I figured it was all within the maximum permissible exposure since it was scanning so much. So is audience scanning legal if it is under 5mw?

It did seem a little hot for being in eyes, so I looked away when it hit me the next few times around. But yeah, it was pretty awesome looking. And it was actually Roger Waters and from what I understand he was the one who wrote almost all of Dark Side of the Moon album. Anyway the show was spectacular, if I find any video of the prism that was made with the laser beam I will link it to this thread. Anyway I've gotta get back to work.

Enjoy your day everyone. If anyone is going to be in Milwaukee for Summerfest contact me, I'll be there and I could probably get some free parking tickets or access to the Marcus Amp show. FYI it goes through Sunday, so let me know early...

Oh, ok... Then that's got to be a different show from the one that we saw in Florida.

I don't think they need the rights to the songs to do a laser show. Basically it's analogous to a nightclub DJ spinning records, only with lasers and on a much larger scale.

I didn't know that Roger Waters had a laser show company though. Kinda cool... Wonder if he's got any copper vapor lasers in it like they had for the famous 1994 world tour?

As far as audience scanning being legal, technically it has never been illegal. You just had to get a variance approved by the CDRH. But the paperwork is a nightmare, so few companies even tried. Then, about 2 years ago, Bill Benner pushed the issue with the CDRH. He had the calculations to prove the show was eye-safe, and he had also developed and installed special scanner safety boards in the projector. (Here's a post from Bill where he talks about it.)

The CDRH stalled, and stalled, and stalled some more, until Bill finally got a lawyer and filed a notice that they were impeding commerce. At that, the CDRH finally caved in and approved their variance. However, I was under the impression that that was the only approved variance for general audience scanning that the CDRH had approved. (The Pink Floyd show we saw in Lakeland, FL used a grating, which is not the same as direct audience scanning.)

See this article on the Pangolin site that Bill Benner wrote for some more details on the subject. Another good one is this article, also on the Pangolin site, but written by John O'Hagen.

Summerfest. Mmmm. Brings back memories! Sure wish I could get up there to see that. But, alas, I'm working just about every day this week. (Yep, including the 4th...) Bummer...

Adam

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NO... Roger Waters is performing his musical "works" and there is a company doing the lasershow at his tour... http://www.technfun.com/smilies/icon_laughexp.gif

I was wondering how Floyd split up the rights to thier songs when they split up... http://www.technfun.com/smilies/icon_doh.gif

Yeah it ACTUALLY was Roger Waters from Pink Floyd, and it wasn't really even a laser show, the laser was on for maybe 10 minutes of the show scanning a wave on the audience and a diffracted rainbow. just like the album cover.

But I assume that since Roger Waters had written most of the songs, he has the rights to play them, maybe given a few creative liberties to make it so that songs that arent specifically his are 'remixes' if you will...

Who knows I could find out possibly by asking the people in charge of booking the event, they might know, or have access to that info...

I went to the roger waters show in tampa in may. I also caught him on the last tour in 2000. I had seats in what they call orchestra, ten rows back and just left of center. In fact seats in my area where selling online for 400 to 600 bucks each. For a true floyd fan there is no monetary consideration.
Like the show in 2000 it was very tastful- and superbly executed. Much simpler than you would expect vs gilmours new floyd. Up until the splt in 1983
roger had become bitter and disconnected from the fans. Up until the late 90's I never thought he would snap out of it. But these shows have been the best ever. - no more walls so to speak. Is far as pink floyd rights and royalties.- The whole thing ended up in a bitter court case. Basically roger didn't believe floyd should go on, however gilmour and mason challenged otherwise. Keyboard player rick wright quit the band after the wall and it was gilmour and mason who spent the cash and challenged waters in court. subsequently when gilmour brought wright back, he did it to add original continuity to the band. He was not made a full partner again and gets much less of a cut the gilmour and mason-
So what happened was this- pink floyd publishing exists to this day, the members being waters, gilmour, mason. it operates as a corporation- they hold board meeting to vote yea or ney on what the want to do. up until the recent and mild reconsiliation as witnessed at live 8- waters would show up to vote no at any and all meetings even though he would lose 2 to 1.
For royalties- they all have the rights and it continues to be split as it always has for the floyd stuff. However waters obviously has no cut on the new stuff.
To give a good example of how complete and detailed this lawsuit was-
waters won the rights to the flying pig used at the live events.This is why the pig balloons you see with the new floyd have horns on them. It was gilmours way of altering their image to include them in the show-
well thats my 2 cents on that-

as for music rights to laser shows, yes you do need to have them. If you are in a night club or you have a radio station supporting the event you can get around that. But for example- the traveling floyd show should be paying royalties. Whether or not they are i dont know. I pay sony/bmg a annual stypend to cover mine. It isn't as bad as you would think-

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Originally Posted by allthatwhichis

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I don't believe it. I've just been bitch-slapped by a smiley. :eek: That's got to be a first! :D

Ok - I get it. It's a Roger Waters CONCERT that happens to also have a laser show as part of the lighting effects.

You gotta admit though, that's a far cry from what most people mean when they say "Pink Floyd Laser Show."

Thanks to Paul for clearing up the legal twists and turns of the Pink Floyd breakup. I knew it was messy, but I didn't realize it was that bad. Still, it's cool that the band is still out there trying to support the fans.

Adam

Hi all,

Just a few brief corrections...

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Originally Posted by Buffo

Then, about 2 years ago, Bill Benner pushed the issue with the CDRH. He had the calculations to prove the show was eye-safe, and he had also developed and installed special scanner safety boards in the projector.

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Well, I want to point out a few things, just so it doesn't seem like I am running the industry... Personally, those who know me, know that I prefer a collaborative effort.

It wasn't only me who "pushed the issue with CDRH". The audience scanning variance of which I have been speaking is held by Greg Makhov of Lighting Systems Design. It was the result of a joint effort by Greg and myself.

And there is more than just "a special scanner safety board" which makes it safe. It is a combination of hardware and software. But even this in and of itself is not enough. These must be combined with proper projector setup and operational techniques (i.e. setting proper maximum laser power and divergence) which keeps it safe.

So it is not just hardware but also the know-how (i.e. how to do calculations, etc.) and some persistance which led to the variance...

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Originally Posted by Buffo

The CDRH stalled, and stalled, and stalled some more, until Bill finally got a lawyer and filed a notice that they were impeding commerce. At that, the CDRH finally caved in and approved their variance.

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:D Well, it is true that CDRH did take a very long time before approving the variance application. But it is not true that we "got a lawyer". Everything was handled directly with CDRH staff, most of whom were very helpful :D. I did mention to Buffo that if CDRH had continued to be unresponsive, we were prepared to involve the help of lawyers and congressmen... It's not that they denied the application, it's just that they took a long time before giving us any kind of answer one way or another...

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Originally Posted by Buffo

However, I was under the impression that that was the only approved variance for general audience scanning that the CDRH had approved. (The Pink Floyd show we saw in Lakeland, FL used a grating, which is not the same as direct audience scanning.)

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One thing to keep in mind, and this is something that John O'Hagan is really big on. "Audience Participation" is not the same as "Audience Scanning". If you read the articles pointed to by Buffo, you might find the term "Audience Participation". What this means is, there are beams in the audience, but they are not there as a result of "scanning".

Scanning is potentially harmful because of something that most people overlook. If you take a 1 watt laser and spread it out (by scanning) so that it covers 1000 times the area of the original beam, you will have an average power of 1 milliwatt all long the scan. BUT, you will have a PEAK power of 1 watt!! Don't forget, it's still a 1 watt laser and, at any given instant in time, that 1 watt is ready to act upon anything that happens to be in its way...

Now, if you take that same 1 watt laser, and put it through a lens, or a diffraction grating, which spreads the beam so that it covers 1000 times the area of the original beam, then you will have an average power of 1 milliwatt (as above), but you also have a PEAK power of 1 milliwatt, because the beam is "everywhere all the time". The beam is not scanning, it is spread out and the total 1 watt of the beam is never available at any instant.

This is "Audience Participation", and if the end-result is beams that are 1 milliwatt, then (at least arguably) you don't need a variance, because you are not exposing the public to greater than Class I radiation.

Best regards,

William Benner

I also saw the Roger Waters concert at London's Hyde Park last summer. Although there were no lasers present, the sound system had to be one of the most amazing I have ever heard (and I've come across a few in my time). They managed to create full surround sound, outdoors at a concert for 150,000 people. The helicopter track from The Wall was incredible. You could actually point to where the chopper "Should" have been, even if it should have been behind you. You could also follow its movements around the site. Now at all shabby for something that didnt actually exist.