Been lurking on these forums for a year. I still need help.

Ok, so I’ve been reading these forums for about a year now. So much so that I can almost hear the voices of the people that post here all the time as I know many of you by name already.

I’m a fire and circus entertainer and I’m in the middle of my pyrotechnicians apprenticeship to get my license. I want to buy some equipment for a community art project that may or may not work out here in the city of Detroit. But my heart is damned set on it. I’m also a big light geek and have been fascinated with lasers my whole life.

Anyway, I think I have an idea of an equipment list.

4 projectors 3-8 Watts probably 2x3watt and 2x6watt I need to be able to put a show on in a theatre sized building and have the two more powerful projectors in case I need to do a small show outside.

Pangolin advanced

Apc40 for live control

2-3 FB4 This is one of the parts I need help. I got really confused as to what connection I should be using. ILDA or DMX I’d like to use Artnet if I could

I “need” a power meter but haven’t sourced them yet. I do everything by the book. Nothing is good to me if everything isn’t good and legal. I’ve already read some of the threads about liability insurance companies for the projectors and variance, of course.

I don’t want to run into any limitations with the control software down the line. I’ll be doing pretty much exclusively beamshows at first. But I’d like to move into 3d mapping later on.

I haven’t even glanced at hazers yet so any guidance would be appreciated.

I also need good safety glasses which I haven’t sourced yet because I figured the community would know which ones are the best to get.

As far as the projectors. I’m looking at Lightspace right now. I was looking at Goldenstar but I’m not super into the prices of the American supplier to have them varianced. (No offense)

Other companies I wanted to ask about are

Swisslas

Able Lasers. I have a line on two used projectors now but I haven’t been able to get a price list from them.

And does anybody know anything about ECS systems in France? They have a 3 year warranty and come with flight cases. That and I’ve watched a million laser videos over the past year and I’ve always like the way ECS Emile’s videos turn out.

I’m super motivated to get this project rolling. I’ve really spent a ton of time researching. The goal is to be able to create laser shows that flawlessly sync with the music. And I know the road won’t be easy to learn.

Also, I’ll likely go to the ILDA conference in Montreal in November even though I don’t really have any expierience. I’ll have to pick up and learn what I can.

And my day job is working in a CNC Tool and Die shop. If anybody wants to know.

I’m assuming I’m missing some stuff like power supplies and I’m still a little confused as to the connections from the Computer.

Thank you for your time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andrew5798

...need to be able to put a show on in a theatre sized building and have the two more powerful projectors in case I need to do a small show outside....
...I haven’t even glanced at hazers yet so any guidance would be appreciated.

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Hazers are great for indoors. Perfect for large venue applications like a theater. The good part is, you can leave them running without it being "noticeable" vs puffs from a fog machine that need to be tamed and then distributed. For outdoors, a hazer isn't going to do much for you. Fog machines are best for outdoors but remember you are always going to be dealing with the wind.

If you come to ILDA, I'm happy to spend time with you answering much of this. I'll try to do some of that here as well although, getting ready to run out the door for work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by absolom7691

Hazers are great for indoors. Perfect for large venue applications like a theater. The good part is, you can leave them running without it being "noticeable" vs puffs from a fog machine that need to be tamed and then distributed. For outdoors, a hazer isn't going to do much for you. Fog machines are best for outdoors but remember you are always going to be dealing with the wind.

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Excellent. I definitely didn’t know that. You wouldn’t happen to able to point me in a direction to source them? Cheaper the better. I’m already three times my budget that I started with. Lol but I got the itch and I already saved the money.

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Originally Posted by Bradfo69

If you come to ILDA, I'm happy to spend time with you answering much of this. I'll try to do some of that here as well although, getting ready to run out the door for work.

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I’m 95% sure I’m going. I know last years was in Germany. I don’t want to miss it and have to travel further.

It’ll be interesting to meet you in person after reading so many of your posts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andrew5798

I’m already three times my budget that I started with.

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Get used to that feeling. :)

What's the timing on the community art project?

I feel like what you described, starting from absolute zero, it going to take a lot of time to acquire the equipment, learn how it all works, install and wire everything, learn the software, program the shows, get the proper approvals and variances, etc. I'm not saying you can't make it happen, but what's the time frame?

Good luck!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andrew5798

I’m 95% sure I’m going. I know last years was in Germany. I don’t want to miss it and have to travel further.

It’ll be interesting to meet you in person after reading so many of your posts.

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Yes, because next year is in England. Last year was actually Slovakia but... close enough.
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The only problem with only being 95% sure is, the longer you wait, the higher the registration cost is.
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I'm going to say something I probably shouldn't, because I am on the board but, I'm also honest. As a new person, the ILDA conference may not be your best investment. Particularly when you're looking to buy software, hardware, hazers, etc. Not that there is anything wrong with going to an ILDA conference however, it's an awful lot of money to spend on something that simply may not be relevant to you just yet. Attending a LEM (Laser Enthusiast Meet) would be a far better use of your dollars at this point in your "career". ILDA is the suit and tie, sit in a hotel conference room all day, see a little bit of lasers at night and, "eat a meal in a tux at the Golden Globe Awards" type experience. It's a general business meeting with Roberts Rules of Order, voting on things, policy making meetings, along with an advanced technology workshop, and such. You'll see a little bit of lasers at the lase off which is where a few people compete against each other performing live to a 3 minute clip of music they've never heard and then see a few lasers at the awards dinner and watch some videos of the awarded entries - maybe a little bit of live graphics/abstracts. You'll have some professional laser companies you can meet and chat with a bit but, as a new person my fear is it would all be a bit overwhelming and perhaps boring. And if you've spend $1,500 to do it, may feel disillusioned. I'd rather you use that money towards buying Beyond or, a quality hazer and other things you'll need.
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I know the distance is a bit greater and it's coming up fast but, if you can make it, use some of what you would have otherwise spent and go to the New England LEM at the end of this month. Rick puts on a very nice weekend and you'll learn a lot. Hell... for that matter, spend less than the $1500 and come to CarribLEM in March and get some amazing tropical SCUBA diving for 10 days and all the lasers and education at night you could want. You'll simply learn far more.
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Not bashing the ILDA Conference - it has it's place and down the road may be something worthwhile to consider but, I don't know that it's necessarily going to be what you may envision. That being said, you would still likely have a good time at the conference should you still have your heart set on doing it and, like you said, it's close this year. I don't want to discourage you... I just want to make sure you have correct expectations before committing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HankLloydRight

Get used to that feeling. :)

What's the timing on the community art project?

I feel like what you described, starting from absolute zero, it going to take a lot of time to acquire the equipment, learn how it all works, install and wire everything, learn the software, program the shows, get the proper approvals and variances, etc. I'm not saying you can't make it happen, but what's the time frame?

Good luck!

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2 years to the first show to clear up paperwork. It’ll take me that long to finish acquiring my pyrotechnicians license. I’d like to fit LSO training in that time somewhere also. I’d like to start programming shows as soon as I can though. The winter here is very long. It is very dark and it is very, very boring.

But I guess that would be more like a year and 4 months.

Brad's advice is great, definitely consider it. The ILDA conference is interesting, but not really a place for learning unfortunately. LEMs are far, far better for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bradfo69

Yes, because next year is in England. Last year was actually Slovakia but... close enough.
.
The only problem with only being 95% sure is, the longer you wait, the higher the registration cost is.
.
I'm going to say something I probably shouldn't, because I am on the board but, I'm also honest. As a new person, the ILDA conference may not be your best investment. Particularly when you're looking to buy software, hardware, hazers, etc. Not that there is anything wrong with going to an ILDA conference however, it's an awful lot of money to spend on something that simply may not be relevant to you just yet. Attending a LEM (Laser Enthusiast Meet) would be a far better use of your dollars at this point in your "career". ILDA is the suit and tie, sit in a hotel conference room all day, see a little bit of lasers at night and, "eat a meal in a tux at the Golden Globe Awards" type experience. It's a general business meeting with Roberts Rules of Order, voting on things, policy making meetings, along with an advanced technology workshop, and such. You'll see a little bit of lasers at the lase off which is where a few people compete against each other performing live to a 3 minute clip of music they've never heard and then see a few lasers at the awards dinner and watch some videos of the awarded entries - maybe a little bit of live graphics/abstracts. You'll have some professional laser companies you can meet and chat with a bit but, as a new person my fear is it would all be a bit overwhelming and perhaps boring. And if you've spend $1,500 to do it, may feel disillusioned. I'd rather you use that money towards buying Beyond or, a quality hazer and other things you'll need.
.
I know the distance is a bit greater and it's coming up fast but, if you can make it, use some of what you would have otherwise spent and go to the New England LEM at the end of this month. Rick puts on a very nice weekend and you'll learn a lot. Hell... for that matter, spend less than the $1500 and come to CarribLEM in March and get some amazing tropical SCUBA diving for 10 days and all the lasers and education at night you could want. You'll simply learn far more.
.
Not bashing the ILDA Conference - it has it's place and down the road may be something worthwhile to consider but, I don't know that it's necessarily going to be what you may envision. That being said, you would still likely have a good time at the conference should you still have your heart set on doing it and, like you said, it's close this year. I don't want to discourage you... I just want to make sure you have correct expectations before committing.

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Thanks. That all sounds like good advice. I’m pretty aware of what the situation would be. As much as I’ve studied, I don’t know enough yet to benefit fully from the conference. I would stick out like a sore thumb. Lol. Circus performer from Detroit lookin a little confused. And I got plenty of suits but no Tux. Lol I’ll reconsider and try to make it to that event at the end of the month but time gets tight for me there because I make more money performing in Oct. than I do the rest of the year.

I’ll make it to ILDA when I’m ready. Cause I want one of them shiny awards. Lol

I’m so glad I spoke up on here finally.

On projectors - biggest thing as you already know, is that they be legal. Lightspace from Walt and Able are both good choices. I don't know that Swisslas or ECS are. You should also consider speaking with Adam Raugh who replied to your thread above about X-Laser's offerings and, specifically the Skywriter HPX Tours, both 2 and 5 watt. You mentioned not knowing about going ILDA versus DMX since you'd like to use Artnet. They are two really separate animals. If you were just thinking beams, then it could potentially be either one with the advent of the Mercury system that X-Laser has. However, if you're thinking about the 3D mapping, then you really need to think ILDA and Beyond. Now.... Beyond itself can be triggered via DMX/Artnet from what I understand but, I don't know exactly how it works. There are those on here that do. I'm sure with the pyro that you're learning about, that's why you're thinking alog the lines of DMX/Artnet but, ILDA is ultimately going to give you the most control and leave you open to more advanced things such as the 3D mapping.

DMX/Artnet is really more for lights, pyro and that sort of stuff and ILDA is traditionally more for lasers however, the Mercury system is changing that and making lasers more accessible to lighting designers who are more in the DMX/Artnet world. There are still limitations with it but, it's significantly more advanced than it was even a few months ago, thanks to Mercury.

Invest in Beyond and a single FB3 just to get started. Update Beyond at Christmas time when it's on sale. You can make a decision about FB4s versus FB3's later down the line. The FB3 will still be useful if you lean toward FB4. The APC40 is really just an extension of what you can do with a mouse for those people who like to have the tactile feel of buttons and sliders versus having to point and click. The other advantage is once you have developed muscle memory with your hands and where buttons and sliders are, it allows you to keep your eyes focused on the lasers and not a computer screen and where to position a mouse. So again, you don't necessarily need an APC40 right out of the chute in order to start learning. It's something performance based that you can grow with. I'm personally not that good with that skill. I still need to look at the keys while typing or, playing piano or something tactile like even the Z-5 analog console so, I mainly stick with a mouse and sometimes make use of my touchscreen. My APC is a dusty thing I wish I had the time to get my hands used to.

Haze/fog etc. Don't go cheap. Also... think about it the way you might think about a printer. What is the cost of the consumables? i.e. the printer ink/haze or fog fluid? I don't give a damn about what the printer costs.... the real question is... what am I going to spend on ink every few weeks? First decide, do you want to be buying fluid for $30 a gallon every few weeks or... a gallon every few years? If the answer is every few years, then maybe the machine that's initially $300 more isn't such a bad option anymore.

Oil based versus water based.... an oil based machine is going to give you better hang time meaning you'll run it less and while people try to say they're "messy", I run my DF-50's all the time and have never noticed any build up of oil on anything. I've also not had to add any fluid to the machines for literally a couple years. They only need to run for short periods before and during a 3 hour show. $25 per gallon. A water based Smoke Factory tour hazer on the other hand, runs constantly and, once you turn it off, atmosphere is generally gone within 10 minutes. Yes, it's economical in it's fluid use but, it's still $105 per gallon delivered to my door. Drawback of the DF-50 is it's noisier in its operation and, some venues specifically say, no oil based hazers for perceived fear of oily residue. You also can't control the volume of output - it's either on or off. The Smoke Factory I can turn down to a barely detectable level and fill a room slowly with haze with no one even noticing. So, all sorts of things to consider.

(Just a few answered questions/opinions for you.)

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Originally Posted by Bradfo69

(Just a few answered questions/opinions for you.)

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Sweet. That’s exactly what I needed to know. I just got confused when I went to look at FB4 and there were different kinds. The only reason I was thinking Artnet is so I wouldn’t wind up being in the way of some grumpy lighting guy. But I’d rather just run all ILDA.

As far as the APC40 I want to be connected as best as possible to what I’m doing. I came up in the electronic music scene here in Detroit and wound up being able to branch into the art scene and become a successful Cirque artist. Music is my whole life. And I need to have the best control for the Theatre shows I want to put on. I want them to be a living breathing part of the live performances. Which also means I don’t want fog machines going off all the time and distracting people.

I emailed X-laser yesterday with an equipment list and request for a quote. Supposedly they have some big September sale going on but I can’t find any info on it and they haven’t gotten back to me. I’ve got a line on some used skywriters and 4 2watt Lightspace projectors with upgraded red diodes right now. So, hopefully they get back to me soon?

Cause the deal is real tempting.

I’m also waiting for Able lasers to get back to me with a price list because I have no idea if I’m getting a good deal on the 5.5W projector if I don’t know how much it was brand new. :-/

Lightspace at least sent me an email saying they got my request but no official response from them either.

The September Sale is based on the amount of wattage you purchase. They add extra goodies and content in. And, if you get enough, they'll throw in basically a Mobile Beat Mirage programming projector for free.

I also saw the FB post about the used Ligtspace projectors w/upgraded red. Think that was Hunter Owen selling off some gear - seemed like a good price. Particularly if they are the Venus II model.

Great advice above, so I'll add just one thing:

Have you met Chad "Fog-Man" Timinskis yet? If not, look him up. (He's on Facebook, Linked-in, etc. His company is called "Fog-Man Enterprises".) He's out of Ludington (where the ferry to Manitowoc, WI docks), but he used to have a regular gig in Detroit. Hopefully he can meet up with you. He is a long-time member here on PL and has been to SELEM several times.

The guy seriously knows his shit and will not steer you wrong. He's one of a handful of people I know who not only has an audience-scanning show variance, but an audience-scanning MANUFACTURER's variance. (Yes, that means the CDRH trusts him to build his own audience-scanning projectors! Let that fact sink in for a moment...)

Chad is a great guy - very chill - but you can learn a lot from him. He may be able to help you out with the art gig as well, since I strongly suspect you may end up in a time-crunch if you don't already have your equipment and variance in hand.

Adam

I can help you out with the pricing on the Able units :)

I own quite a few of them, some old, some brand new, some with FB4's and EMS-8000 scanners.

I absolutely love the workmanship AND the customer service is top notch. They want to make sure you are happy and satisfied with your purchase. ALSO they come with a 2 year warranty so you get a little piece of mind.