Hello! New guy here with some questions regarding animation lasers

First, I'd like to introduce myself - my name is Trent and I am new to this hobby. I used to have an electronics repair business back in the 80's and 90's when people actually repaired electronics rather than tossing it in the trash and replacing it. Now, it is a sideline to a more lucrative network engineering career.

I recently repaired a couple of effects lasers for a friend of mine who owns a small club. The power supplies had gone out and they just needed all the electrolytic caps replaced to bring them back to life. I thought these things were cool. They pretty much put on an effects show that goes to the beat of the music. I fired up my halloween fog machine and had a rave in my workshop - mesmerized for hours. I was hooked and so was my son.

I thought it would be neat to purchase a laser to light up the front of my house for Christmas instead of hanging lights. So, I purchased a 2000mW laser from AliExpress (I can hear the groaning already, LOL) and received it a couple of days ago. I made sure it had an ILDA connector for PC control, analog lasers (not TTL) and I paid extra for 40kpps galvanometers. Knowing how these Chinese vendors exaggerate specs was expected, so I figured if I paid for 40K galvos, I'd get something that could do 30Kpps. I don't think this unit can do even that. While it handles wave and tunnel effects nicely, it flickers on animated graphics that have roughly over 1000 points per frame. It should be able to handle that at 20 frames a second, right? (20kpps if I'm doing my math right) The unit is a LH-RGB242 from LH-Lasers (Blue Ocean Technology, Co. LTD).

Will this affect what I plan on using the laser for? I just want to map my house (roofline, windows, door, etc.) and project virtual Christmas lights. Nothing fancy. I did order a FB3QS package from Pangolin, so I will be getting the PC interface and software in a couple of days. (Hey, I did at least one thing right and got the "good stuff') Right now, I'm working with the .ild files that were provided on an SD card from the manufacturer, which looks like they downloaded from your FTP site to begin with. An interesting note is that even when I turn down the "sensitivity" adjustment on the laser to reduce the scanning angle, it doesn't seem to make much of a difference in the flicker. Shouldn't it get a lot better if I'm not moving the mirrors around as much? Is there any way to "tune" the scanners? The instructions were garbage. It took me 15 minutes to just get the menus in English.

I'm sorry for the n00b questions, and yes, I did search the forums but figured a fresh thread may be best. I never expected this new hobby to be cheap, and I know money can fix most anything. Sock it to me, I can take it. I canceled three trips this year, I've got some money to burn. :D

Thanks for any help!

Trent

Welcome to PL and welcome to the wallet crushing world of lasers! :)

It would be very difficult to tell the true performance of the galvos until you get your FB3. It's possible that the on-board display software/hardware is not geared to run at 30K which is why you get a lot of flicker. You'll be SO much happier once your FB3 arrives!

Also, 1000 points is still quite a bit. I try to keep my stuff below 700 points. The good thing is, Pangolin software does a really good job at optimizing, even with a lot of points. Best practice though is to keep your point count low.

Flicker is a matter of how long it takes to get through all of the points in a frame before the frame can be repeated or the next frame can be shown.

This has nothing to do with the scan angle. It's all about the DAC clock rate.

It's true that a smaller scan angle will put less stress on the scanners and thus you should be able to increase the DAC clock rate to get a more solid looking image.

It comes down to the rotational change (in radians) per clock cycle. That is scanner velocity. That is the limiting factor of scanner performance.

Scanners are analog devices. They don't know or care anything about points per second. They only respond to rate of change of input voltage over time.

Making and displaying original art for laser display doesn't have to be an expensive endeavor.

It can be done with free or inexpensive software and an inexpensive modified multi-channel sound device.

This might not be quite as versatile as a more expensive solution, but it can be much more educational as you get a much better feel for how it all actually works and you get to tinker with your own electronics.

James.

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Originally Posted by absolom7691

Welcome to PL and welcome to the wallet crushing world of lasers! :)

It would be very difficult to tell the true performance of the galvos until you get your FB3. It's possible that the on-board display software/hardware is not geared to run at 30K which is why you get a lot of flicker. You'll be SO much happier once your FB3 arrives!

Also, 1000 points is still quite a bit. I try to keep my stuff below 700 points. The good thing is, Pangolin software does a really good job at optimizing, even with a lot of points. Best practice though is to keep your point count low.

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Thanks for the response! The FB3QS package cost more than the laser itself, but this is expected. In the computer world, the cost of a PC or laptop is minimal compared to the software you need to get things done. For now, the laser is looping a file called ilda99, which maxes out at roughly 1200 pps. I just want to make sure the hardware is not defective at this point. I'm happy to hear that my own files may work better once I get the interface and the software. I've had good luck with AliExpress so far. They have a 1000 batting average with a half dozen orders in the last few months.

Thanks for the response James! Hopefully, Quickshow will suffice for my needs - but since I am kind of locked into the Pangolin ecosystem, their BEYOND software may be the next step. It seems like hardware like DAC's aren't universal and the FB3 interface will only work with Pangolin software. A DAC like Helios would not work - am I correct? Once gain. sorry for the n00b questions, this is all new to me. Forgive me for not using the correct terminology too.I am learning so much from browsing these forums!

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Originally Posted by TCinJ

Quickshow will suffice for my needs - but since I am kind of locked into the Pangolin ecosystem, their BEYOND software may be the next step. It seems like hardware like DAC's aren't universal and the FB3 interface will only work with Pangolin software. A DAC like Helios would not work - am I correct? Once gain. sorry for the n00b questions, this is all new to me. Forgive me for not using the correct terminology too.I am learning so much from browsing these forums!

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James explained a bit more technically what I was trying to say, that your on-board software/hardware may not be up to 30K! With galvos, if you scan too much detail or faster than they are rated, what you end up with is rounded corners, inaccurate recreations of the artwork, or in some cases, pure spaghetti.

At the risk of waving my fanboy hat too much... QuickShow is an extremely capable bit of software with a decent learning curve. Beyond is quite a bit more complex but it is pro level ("SuperBowl half-time show" pro level). Depending on what kind of displays you're after (beams, graphics, abstracts...) I doubt you'll even need Beyond for a home based laser show.

Being locked into the Pangolin ecosystem isn't a bad thing though. You can still import other formats into QuickShow or Beyond, that includes .ild files. Where you're locked is exporting files. Only other Pangolin users can open exported files. You're also correct in that the only DAC that will work with Pangolin software is other Pangolin hardware so, FB3/FB4 only. Granted, it is more expensive but two things; 1. If you find this hobby isn't for you, Pangolin gear resells at a decent price so, your losses wouldn't sting too much. 2. There are a lot of Pangolin users out there and a wealth of content/help available from other users.

I don't want to dispute James, as he has done a lot for this community but I will comment to his statement that lasers don't have to be expensive. It's true, this hobby doesn't have to cost a lot but I have found that going inexpensive almost certainly costs more and can run the risk of turning you off to the hobby. I went inexpensive and ended up buying the higher end stuff later. I should have just gone with the higher end stuff to begin with. Also, with inexpensive, I've found that the learning curve gets steeper and steeper to the point of disinterest in the hobby. It's true that you can homebrew hardware but when it comes to software, you need something that is robust and can get you projecting quickly with great results.

That's my two cents worth. Regardless of all of that, good luck and I hope you have fun. Lots of people here to help or give advice!

The ILDA file format is supposed to be generic. Most laser display software will at least let you import it into the app.

LaserBoy is free open source software. It can read and write several open standard file formats, some of which I developed just for LaserBoy, but the specs are open and documented, so other app developers can use them.

You can make all kinds of original art with LaserBoy and use that with other apps.

You can also build or buy a modified multi-channel sound device aka LaserBoy DAC and use it to play waves made with LB or a few other apps that also export waves. There is even a driver for Windows that allows you to use the LB DAC with some live streaming apps. There are also a lot of wave transcriptions of ADAT recordings of laser shows out there that will play on this DAC. If you have a multi-channel digital recording device, you can record the output of any kind of laser DAC or analog abstract console and save it as wave. This will play on a LB DAC and it can also be opened into the LB app for additional manipulation and exported as ILDA or whatever.

Like I said. This gives you a view of how all of this actually works.

In a way, it's kind of like Linux compared to Windows.

It's good to know how to make the most out of everything you have and to know how to do stuff that you just can't do any other way.

James.

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Originally Posted by absolom7691

James explained a bit more technically what I was trying to say, that your on-board software/hardware may not be up to 30K! With galvos, if you scan too much detail or faster than they are rated, what you end up with is rounded corners, inaccurate recreations of the artwork, or in some cases, pure spaghetti...

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Thanks again for your advice and opinions! I am hopeful that the display will look better when hooked up through a DAC. I re-checked the specs on the laser and I am supposed to have 45Kpps scanners. Interestingly enough, when projecting an image with a lot of points, like falling snowflakes, the images are not distorted. They look fine - it just flickers. I'm thinking a lot of serious enthusiasts here probably did the same thing I did and bought an inexpensive Chinese laser. You have to start somewhere I suppose! The made on China Chauvet lasers I repaired for my friend were four years old and they get used every weekend - he certainly is getting value for his money!

For reference, here is the laser I purchased - I wonder if anyone else here has one?

http://www.lh-laser.com/index.php?ro...&product_id=73

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Originally Posted by james

The ILDA file format is supposed to be generic. Most laser display software will at least let you import it into the app.

LaserBoy is free open source software. It can read and write several open standard file formats, some of which I developed just for LaserBoy, but the specs are open and documented, so other app developers can use them...

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Thank you for the info James! I think I will also purchase another DAC and give LaserBoy a spin. It doesn't hurt to be "multi-lingual" and know more than one piece of software!

I also am reading that if I try to ask the scanners to do something they aren't capable of, they will let me know - audibly. Is this like over driving a loudspeaker to the point it starts cracking and distorting? I can barely hear the scanners making any noise at all with all the fans running. There is a fan on each laser and two fans mounted in the case. If I turn up the sensitivity to maximum scan angle, I can hear a slight humming noise coming from them. It isn't a harsh buzzing, but more of a hum. The servo actuators (not sure of the correct terminology) are not getting hot either. So I guess I'm not doing anything that will damage them.

As stated in a previous post - things will look a lot better using the FB3 and QS. I also startet my hobby by gathering the cheap stuff, and ended up paying for the good stuff later.

Using the buildt in SD card reader and ILDA engine, the projection are more or less crappy regardless. Any popular ILDA DAC are able to produce a better result.
I dont have the knowlage of why ILDA files projects in better quality using Pangolin DAC than e.g my RIYA DAC, but it is a big difference. So going that route will give your ALI projector the best possible chance of producing a good result.

Beeing tied to USB and a long ILDA cable are the only downside i find in my setup today, and the introduction of the FB4 using Ethernet and cheap ethernet cables have eliminated that downside. If i were to invest in a new setup today, that had been my #1 choice.

Good luck making your neighbours happy and do a recording of your show so we can see the result.

Espen

A modified sound device is not just another laser DAC. It's a sound device. It is generic. It is supported by every OS and every app that plays multi-channel waves. It exists totally outside of laser projection technology. That's the whole point! LaserBoy is all about letting people explore the possibilities of laser display and other vector based artforms in a totally generic way. Do it yourself!

LB does not stream to any kind of DAC, sound device or otherwise. It just reads and writes files. You have to play the waves it makes with an application for playing waves.

James.

Consider dumping the scanners and buying pangolin 506 scanners. Likely the lasers are fine. It’s not hard with your skills to do this. Essentially rip the old ones out align the scanners and bolt the drivers and supplies in the case. Rewire to ilda connector. Toss the inessential motherboard they gave you in the trash. If it has the laser drivers you could keep them or replace. You will be left with a really capable unit. I run saturns at 60kps and run 2500 points with ease.

if you allow corners to slightly round you’ll be able to cut points a lot. Be less picky. It helps. I’m obsessed with white balance so I get picky.

As others have said... when you get the FB3 and Quickshow, I think you will be much happier. I personally have found a lot of the onboard stuff built into the cheaper Asian projectors really looks like crap so that may very well be what you're seeing. As has also been stated, Quickshow is an extremely capable program and probably very very satisfactory. If you want to make the leap to Beyond, you don't have to buy a new DAC, just the software license and then download the software for free. License is good "forever". And, the time to buy it (should you wish to) is coming up soon with Pangolin's annual holiday sale.

I LOVE LOVE LOVE your analogy of the computer being the cheap part and the software as being where you need to put your money to get anything done. So often we see new people buy a laser and then be hesitant about buying what they need to control it and wanting to go as cheap as possible because they didn't realize that after spending "all this money" on the laser, that they didn't have much left in the budget for control or, a hazer, or crankstand, or anything else they didn't know they needed.

You've got the right attitude to fit right in to the laser hobby, err... addiction, err... insanity. *retardo Welcome to the forum.