Stay tuned ! New technology is coming that will change the industry.
Stay tuned ! New technology is coming that will change the industry.
Yawn great introduction
What a funny guy. Been doing laser since the early 80s. Seen all kinds, but never got a yawn. Nice to meet you too.Quote:
Originally Posted by polishedball
It's hard to notice everyone yawn when you're in the dark...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colortran
I would have thought you would have given a better introduction, being your very first post here, making a claim that you have something more revolutionary than anything done before.
I hope what you have to show is amazing, but hard to be excited with zero background and no history yourself here on this forum.
I’ll bite. Since it’s patented can you tell us what it is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Colortran
you must understand without telling us what your up to it sounds a bit like a manic rant about having developed a fusion reactor that sits on your kitchen table. I have no idea who you are so hard to pass Judgment so I won’t.
welcome and can you tell us a bit about the idea and who you are.
thank you.
I'm guessing this is it: https://patents.google.com/patent/US11397000B2
"Laser projection system"
Inventor: Dodworth; George
ASSIGNEE: LIGHTWAVE INTERNATIONAL, INC.
edit: Or it could be this in addition to the above: https://patents.google.com/patent/US11363243B2/Quote:
Abstract
A laser projection system having built-in safety systems is disclosed. Further disclosed is a method of operating a laser projection system such that safe operation is a factor only of meeting a threshold distance between the laser unit and an audience member. To accomplish safe operation at the threshold distance, the laser projection system is pre-calibrated to operate below maximum permitted exposure levels at the threshold distance. In this manner of operation, laser lighting can be accomplished by non-laser professionals without the complexity, external sensors, and need for calibration at the venue.
Quote:
Laser arrays
Abstract
Disclosed herein are a plurality of laser sources forming an element. Multiple laser elements are arranged in a pattern to form an array. Each laser element of the array is independently addressable, such that video and other content can be projected from the array.
... hmmm ... what came in my mind while reding this, is another safety-option, which could be achieved with modern hardware+software.
It shouldn't be such big a problem, to implement a camera system, which scans the beaming range for people/faces and blank this zones, so no beam will hit ... in occasion, there will someone entry the beam zone ...
Viktor
To me, this sounded like an anti-pangolin smear. To come to a forum of professionals and amateurs who have watched those professionals, I have my doubts. You're talking to some of the very pioneers of this field. I agree with the others, if it's patented, "stay tuned" sounds very vaporware to me.
Wtf how did those terrible patents ever get granted.Quote:
Originally Posted by HankLloydRight
Related to thread: We DONT need another format.. there are now so many formats and little get serious implementation/attention these days and many are depricated.. A format thrives on its support and implementation in software to offer choice and exchange.. what do you need other then the frame format ILDA V5?
If you got something to show: Show it.. Because right now a vague promise with nothing that even hints at even remotely changing the industry.. isn't going to work here.
Attachment 59313
I'm sure the news will be here soon.
Content is king. Format is ummm, not...
x∞ for this statement. I have seen some pretty damn amazing lights with a mirror, a spring, and a 4" woofer. Simplistic but the point is very much there.Quote:
Originally Posted by laserist
Content and format go hand in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by laserist
I think you may be confusing format with choreography.
No not at all. Imagine how small the open source software community would be if there was only one way to develop software and the cost was high.Quote:
Originally Posted by laserist
I can do you one better, what if all that was real and people still did things with analog electronics that still outshine the digital crap done by that one expensive software company that was catering to the commercial art crowd who just wanted to do a logo? ILDA was the worst thing that ever happened to laser shows. Art doesn't need a standard or a format!
art may not need a standard, but content tool interoperability does and if you want your laser show orchestra to have more than one instrument you need a way for tools to talk to each other. that's the whole point of the ILDA format. a common standard. the claim that ILDA is the worst thing to happen to laser shows makes exactly no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by laserist
the worst thing to happen to laser shows is propriety ecosystems and lazy creators.
Your machine does a terrible job washing my clothes!
That because it's a bicycle.
Amen to that!*nyancatQuote:
Originally Posted by swamidog
Okay I'll play. Sure, I like more than one instrument, but I'm tired of people doing the same old "look, fire, aim" approach to all things laser show related. The problem is lasers are inherently pretty and it takes a while to develop a clue about how to do a show or build a tool to help do the show. And once you take the time you still only have the insights gained from the esthetic you've evolved. From a software development point of view, where are the use stories that guide the development effort? The Radiator was an interesting example - it attempted to create a improvement on the laser consoles of old using today's tech, but I'm not sure they ever talked to anybody who ran a console until it was done.
When designing an application or a file format you can't please all of the people all of the time.
It might seem counter intuitive, but I think the best attitude is to stick to your own ideology and design it the way you want it.
If a system is designed by one person or at least one person is in charge of every aspect of it, then it has a much better chance of being coherent and consistent throughout the whole of it.
Design by committee is a well known horrible approach.
Just look at the ilda file format!
It sucks.
This is due to the fact that it was poorly designed in the first place and managed by a small group of egomaniacs who would rather have their name on it than for it to be correctly implemented.
thank you for agreeing with my point. i did video production during the desktop video revolution and being able to identify video toaster and lightwave work on television became a running joke. that holds true for too many lasers shows. stock clip art and spazz and flail beam soup. but... this is not a fault of the tools, and it's certainly not the fault of ILDA. it's all on the heads of folks making the content. it's not the tool, it's the tool who uses the tool.
and we presented radiator prototypes to a large number of ex-console operators (including some that worked for laserium) before we completed the production version. it is not our intent to recreate old hardware and paradigms (notice we actually labeled our controls), but to create a tool that's optimized for successful live abstract performance, usability, and interoperability with other systems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by laserist
I think ILDA did a disservice to laser shows (as opposed to trade show producers) by sticking a single lumia position in the scanner spec. Lumia doesn't scale the same way as scanners. Consequently lumia pretty much wasn't done. (Until the relatively recent resurgence.) And I think it's reasonable to lay that on the ILDA basic projector spec. It's been said that a craftsman doesn't blame his tools, but it may be because he made them himself, or at least understands the strengths and weaknesses of each.
the ILDA projector standard says "The ILDA Standard Projector shall have *at least one* rotating lumia of medium angle and generic texture".Quote:
Originally Posted by laserist
nothing is locking a manufacturer or laserist into a single lumia effect.
I've always thought of lumia a something that is completely outside of a "projector". It can certainly use the same source lasers on an optics table, but it has nothing to do with the precision line art that is made with scanners. It is by its nature random and every system is unique.
The DB25 connector pinout is fine.
The ILDA standard was all about people who did cartoons wanting to be able to rent projectors on the road that were capable of producing their cartoons as well as on their home system. As a standard it produces substandard planetarium laser shows no matter how many of the insipid boxes you throw under a dome.Quote:
Originally Posted by swamidog
I think its worth noting that the ilda standard(s) were originally designed well before you could put a projector in a box carry it with one arm.
well..... the ILDA standard is about establishing a projector standard with a minimally specified set of features. this is actually a very useful thing, and there's nothing stating those specifications can't be exceeded to improve projection quality or features. if you're on a gig and a projector fails, it's quite important to know the replacement projector you rent / borrow / buy will meet the standards of the other projectors in the show.Quote:
Originally Posted by laserist
cartoons and domes are not part of the specifications. even the best, most feature rich systems can't make bad content look good.
there are a lot of embarrassing dome shows from a wide variety of hardware... including laserium.
quoting you (https://www.photonlexicon.com/forums...1#post266631): "it's not the quality of the lasers that's hurting the quality of laser shows - it's the quality of the shows. Better lasers won't improve things - it'll take better shows to do that."
How many planetarium shows are happening these days? How many projectors are used for trade shows with logos, etc, or with large concert tours?Quote:
Originally Posted by laserist
The ILDA file format and projector standard are antiquated but they still meet the needs of most.
I get your frustration, but if people don't want to see that planetarium type stuff anymore then what is the point in having technology to support it? If there was a demand, it would exist.
We still remember
We who dwell
In this far land beneath the trees
The starlight on the western seas
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnYayas
The motivation to make art or explore technology isn't always about making money or appealing to the masses. When it's very personal and a way to connect to individuals, it is perhaps far more valuable and rewarding.
For better or worse, the ILDA format beats the option of being saddled with some black box proprietary horsepoopy that locks you into a specific product line.Quote:
Originally Posted by james
As for correct implementation of a free and open standard, that lies on the head of the implementor.
The ilda file format specification is poorly designed, plain and simple. Storing the number of elements in each section header without any indication of the size of each element type is just wrong. Then to extend this blunder by adding two new sections that have no relationship to the original section types is doubting down on dumb.
Does it work? Sure it does. But it's not robust and will not survive any major shift in the laser vector art paradigm.
You want an open standard file format? Try plain ascii text! You can read and write that in Notepad.
As they say in football, a win is a win.Quote:
Does it work? Sure it does.
I think I'd rather scrub the latrine with a toothbrush instead. *retardoQuote:
You want an open standard file format? Try plain ascii text! You can read and write that in Notepad.
Says the man who advocates for wave files and 1980’s style color palette cycling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by james
Well get your favorite toothbrush and take a look at the dxf, obj and glTF file formats. These are all vector art formats. The glTF format is the open standard for exchanging the most detailed information between applications for 3D virtual reality rendering for gaming and computer generated animations.
All of these are plain ascii text.
Says the man who has written several substantial file formats and script languages.
The question is, why don't you advocate for wave files? What's wrong with pallet cycling? It's good for all kinds of neat effects. But, to do it, your software must be able to properly manage palettes.
.
I did long ago, but no one got onboard...*vigilQuote:
Originally Posted by james
You just didn't stick with it long enough. It's actually quite popular with a lot of visual artists who are not interested in using a commercial product to make laser signals.Quote:
Originally Posted by dchammonds
Wave files and pallet cycling... hell no.. we aren't in the 1990's anymoreQuote:
Originally Posted by james
Regarding the digital hatred: Digital is robust with standards that allow clear collaborative effort. Open formats and file exchange is important but sadly not a common future for most "industrial" industries these days.. at least not on the leading edge.
The art form has grown.. if you are willing you look for it you can see.. yes there are lazy people out there but that same can be said for the music industry... pulling a blind eye to the boundairy and leading edge of the art form right now would be ignorance.
While some parts of the industry have gotten easier and stagnated.. others are still in heavy development with insane requirements of tools and skills that most probably don't even realize... motion capture.. intensive scripting.. coding.. 3D modeling..3D animation.. 2D animation.. frame by frame work.. vector flash animation.. its an insane list now rather then just spinning a 2D image and calling it a day.
What has also changed and to keep in mind is accessibility.. and opened an extreme low and end mid low end which is what you see spammed on social media which is the "trash" you talk about.. but then again these are different budgets for different people... I wouldn't judge them up against other works.
Standarization was some of the best things that happened.. while im not a fan of ILDA as a board itself.. i do think this was one of the most important things to come from it.
'cause wave files are dumb. while they work moderately well if you need a playback only format and have the specialized hardware to play them through a projector, they're useless for content editing and interoperabilityQuote:
Originally Posted by james
There are some unexpected places to look for the cutting edge.
If you are looking for truly new art, you don't look at the "industry".
You look for artists who are doing things outside of the industry.
I was just part of the Vector Hack Festival 2022 again this year.
In their call for entry, they stated that any laser show material submitted to be shown in the venue had to be in WAVE format.
Perhaps some of us need to expand our idea of what a wave is and what can be done with it.
It can be used in and out of applications (visual modular languages) like Pure Data, Processing and Max Jitter for all kinds of live streaming.
And as for palette cycling, any frame that has more than one color is a kind of palette.
A palette is a one dimensional ordered list of rgb colors.
A frame is a one dimensional ordered list of (color) vertices.
If you repeatedly shift the colors from one vertex to the next in a beam fan to create motion through the colors, guess what?
That's palette cycling.
// some vhf
About the first 4 minutes are dead air because this was a recorded live stream.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FztYsk_zVjs&t=10998s
The panel discussion at the end in interesting.
Useless to you because you don't use them.Quote:
Originally Posted by swamidog
Lots of other artists are using wav clips as streaming data objects and doing real time processing on them.
Guess how they make their waves.
i've used wave files for non-editable show playback and as an intermediary format to convert output of one system into ILDA files for playback and editing by another system.
wave files would never be my first choice for anything. or even second, or third choice as they are useless for real time editing.
i do professional interactive laser installations and the added complexity and custom technology needed to work with wave files coupled with the reduction of functionality makes them not just a bad choice, but the worst choice of all formats to work with.
if you want to watch old laser shows in your living room or drive lasers from your modulars, great... if you want to do real world projects, not a chance.
does laserboy have real time laser output when creating and manipulating wave files?
Quote:
Originally Posted by james
I'll say it again.
If you think of a wav file as a consecutive series of color vertices (not worrying so much about the sample rate) they are the same data you would find in any ilda file.Quote:
Originally Posted by james
But they have the added bonus of being directly displayable by any multichannel audio device in any OS.
Plus they can have synchronized audio.
What can you store in an ild file that you can't store in a wav?
Better question. What can you store in a wav that you can't store in an ild file?
data that doesn't have to be converted to another format before it can be used in laser show software....Quote:
Originally Posted by james
I hope you realize how ridiculous that is.Quote:
Originally Posted by swamidog
Yes, there are lots of artists using wav in their regular work flow.
The software that YOU choose to use doesn't recognize wav.
Or maybe it does and you choose to ignore it.
no... the software i use *does* recognize wav and then it converts them to a much more sane and usable format (ilda).
this isn't the 1980's and the idea of using a baked file format like wave for laser show creation and editing only makes sense if you're trying to punish yourself for eating babies in a past life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by james
Have you considered my questions?Quote:
Originally Posted by swamidog
What can you store in an ild file that you can't store in a wav?
What can you store in an wav file that you can't store in an ild?
your question is irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by james