Low RPM motor solution... finally!

Hey, lumia painters! Thanks to some inspiration from Brian (Laserist) in another lumia thread, I tried out some gear reduced stepper motors that were microstepped using an A4988 driver, set to 16th steps. I was amazed at how smooth the lumia pattern moved when I was running the stepper at about 0.04 RPM. Very smooth. The square wave signal generator I built to pulse the stepper driver will go from 100hz to 3khz. This translates to a variable shaft speed of 0.04 RPM to 1.1 RPM. This is right in the sweet spot for me as this will be powering a double disk lumia that throws a smoke-like pattern at low speed and flowing water pattern at high speed. I have seen other threads talk about steppers for lumia but the consensus was that the motor's "steps" would be visible. With the steppers I found, joined with the A4988 drivers, I could not detect any staccato motion whatsoever, even at a ridiculously slow speed. These are a total win.

The Stepper: https://www.frankhumotor.com/nema-8-...604S-PG64.html And for some reason, the picture on the site is wrong for the stepper and gearbox.

The driver: https://www.amazon.com/HiLetgo-Steps...s%2C163&sr=8-3

These motors have a pretty small footprint, too.
Attachment 60257
Attachment 60258

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvYDY3XBtEM

Nice............

Cool! You know... back in the day, I would have ordered 5 motors and 5 drivers already which would then arrive and languish in a box in the storage unit for years because eventually "that day" would come when I laughably believed I was going to build a lumia rig. I show SO much more restraint these days. :o

only 5? You showed more restraint way back when than I did.

I think he mentioned buying 5 of each only because the Amazon listing is for a set of 5 drivers...

And that also means that he CLICKED the link (just as I did) and seriously considered purchasing them. (Just as I did...) *retardo

Adam

Bradford and restraint go together like Democrats and Republicans! :D The other problem he has is that both the angel and devil on his shoulders tell him "Buy it!"

Yeah, the drivers are in sets of 5 but seriously, that's a little over $2 apiece after taxes. Not bad considering the performance. For other applications, I think they can handle up to 4 amps. I think it would be more expensive to buy them individually.

Gotta try this.

Thanks…Mike

Well, after thinking about this for a while, I decided to give it a try as well!

Ordered the stepper motors from China, and also ordered both the drivers and an adjustable squarewave generator from Amazon. Probably going to have to wait a while to get the steppers delivered, but we'll see I guess.

Looking forward to seeing what sort of effects I can get with the classic shower glass that Greg (Displaser) discovered years ago. Previously I'd been using a .5 RPM Hankscraft 12V DC motor and running it down around 9 volts or so, but this should give me lots more control over the speed.

Sigh - Yet another project that I need to finish before SELEM!

Adam

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Originally Posted by buffo

Well, after thinking about this for a while, I decided to give it a try as well!

Ordered the stepper motors from China, and also ordered both the drivers and an adjustable squarewave generator from Amazon. Probably going to have to wait a while to get the steppers delivered, but we'll see I guess.

Looking forward to seeing what sort of effects I can get with the classic shower glass that Greg (Displaser) discovered years ago. Previously I'd been using a .5 RPM Hankscraft 12V DC motor and running it down around 9 volts or so, but this should give me lots more control over the speed.

Sigh - Yet another project that I need to finish before SELEM!

Adam

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I know those feels. I have been working on this Lumia projector for about 13 years now. And by "working on it" I mean, I have really only been working on it for the last 3. The previous 10 years involved gathering parts, designing, redesigning, and alerting the design. Part of that was due to technology changes in new diodes and the obsolescence of some DPSS lasers and new drivers and such. I can't tell you how many active projects I have that have been active for years! At least I am never bored!

Yup, just ordered 2 myself, based on what I saw at SELEM.

We’ll see how I do.
…Mike

Not sure if this forum is dead now or not, but I figured I would post here anyway. I ditched the A4988 drivers for the TMC2209 drivers. Night and day difference. Set to stealthchop and 1/64 steps, I don't even need a reduction gearbox anymore. Direct drive eliminates any gearbox stiction or hiccups due to cheap grease/cheap quality. I can get a 1.8° stepper down to around .07 RPM, pulsing the driver at 10hz, and the results are still liquidy smooth. With a 0.9° stepper, I was able to go even slower. Interference patterns moved like wisps of smoke in a room with no wind. For flowing water, 500hz will get you about 2 RPM, still smooth. For anyone who still visits here, this is a complete win for building a lumia projector.

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Originally Posted by absolom7691

Not sure if this forum is dead now or not, but I figured I would post here anyway. I ditched the A4988 drivers for the TMC2209 drivers. Night and day difference. Set to stealthchop and 1/32th steps, I don't even need a reduction gearbox anymore. Direct drive eliminates any gearbox stiction or hiccups due to cheap grease/cheap quality. I can get a 1.8° stepper down to around .07 RPM, pulsing the driver at 10hz, and the results are still liquidy smooth. With a 0.9° stepper, I was able to go even slower. Interference patterns moved like wisps of smoke in a room with no wind. For flowing water, 500hz will get you about 2 RPM, still smooth. For anyone who still visits here, this is a complete win for building a lumia projector.

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sweet! got a link?

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Originally Posted by swamidog

sweet! got a link?

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Sure do! They can be found on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Teyleten-Robo...l%2C189&sr=1-5

Documentation link:
https://learn.watterott.com/silentst...onfig/tmc2209/

Here's a video showing the operation using a nema 11 stepper:

https://youtu.be/pSh5jquFNMY

that is awesome... time to up my lumia game.

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Originally Posted by absolom7691

Sure do! They can be found on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Teyleten-Robo...l%2C189&sr=1-5

Documentation link:
https://learn.watterott.com/silentst...onfig/tmc2209/

Here's a video showing the operation using a nema 11 stepper:

https://youtu.be/pSh5jquFNMY

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I do need to make a correction... I was running at 1/64 microstepping, Not 1/32. My apologies. I'm trying to see how slow I can get this to move. So far, pulsing at 2hz, I'm at .014 RPM. That's about ~0.84 RPH! Sadly, it's not smooth, which I expected. For a 1.8° stepper, I think .05 RPM is the limit while still being smooth. Still, that's only 3 RPH!

I'm really impressed with those results, Bryan! Although I can't help but think that things would be even better with one of the planetary gearbox steppers attached to that driver. Interesting that you mentioned an issue with the gears sticking - I haven't experienced that myself, but I've only run mine for bench tests thus far... Hope this isn't a common problem with the planetary gearboxes. (Maybe I should pull the cover and re-grease them?)

The last time we messed with this at SELEM, I was using this driver: https://www.amazon.com/Stepper-Drive.../dp/B0FFGGJTYX and this frequency generator to run it: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07P848DYQ

The drivers run about $10 bucks each, and they're roughly the size of a deck of cards. The frequency generator units are designed to be mounted on a panel and look really sharp, and at ~$15 they're on par with just about any other PWM source you can find.

What we found was that below about 200 Hz on the input you couldn't really see the movement of the lumia pattern on the wall unless you watched it very closely, but if you ramped it up to around 9000 Hz you could get something that looked like flames. Thanks to Zac (Laserman121) Collins, we had both a red and a yellow laser feeding into the lumia wheel, and that looked amazing. The sweet spot seemed to be around 1500 Hz or so for typical lumia. But there was never any stutter or jerking in the pattern, even when it was running far slower than you'd ever want for lumia.

It seems that at the slowest settings on your rig, there is a barely perceptible jerk as the stepper notches forward tooth by tooth, but admittedly, I'm nit-picking. I'm never going to run lumia anywhere near that slow, so it wouldn't ever be an issue. But as I've already bought 5 of those planetary gearbox stepper motors, I think I'm going to stick with those, lol! (Now I just need to actually build something.)

Adam

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Originally Posted by buffo

I'm really impressed with those results, Bryan! Although I can't help but think that things would be even better with one of the planetary gearbox steppers attached to that driver. Interesting that you mentioned an issue with the gears sticking - I haven't experienced that myself, but I've only run mine for bench tests thus far... Hope this isn't a common problem with the planetary gearboxes. (Maybe I should pull the cover and re-grease them?)

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For me, I was just looking for more room in my projector and heard good things about these drivers. Direct-drive just seemed like a better idea. I don't even have to think about the gearbox now. I don't need to worry about any backlash or any artifacts. Reversing directions, I don't need to wait for the slop in the gearbox to catch up.

**Warning** don't bother opening the gearbox. They're a bitch to get open! Both ends are press-fitted with some epoxy to seal them. Speaking from experience!!!

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What we found was that below about 200 Hz on the input you couldn't really see the movement of the lumia pattern on the wall unless you watched it very closely

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This is why I ditched the gearbox. It just isn't needed. I'm never going to be driving a lumia that slowly. Besides, a nema 8 motor is $20~$25. Stick one of those planetary gearboxes on it and the price doubles. This is just a cheaper option.

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It seems that at the slowest settings on your rig, there is a barely perceptible jerk as the stepper notches forward tooth by tooth, but admittedly, I'm nit-picking. I'm never going to run lumia anywhere near that slow, so it wouldn't ever be an issue. But as I've already bought 5 of those planetary gearbox stepper motors, I think I'm going to stick with those, lol! (Now I just need to actually build something.)

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You're right, and it wasn't until a closely watched the video before I saw it. This nema 11 I used in the video is good to .8A. I had mine at about 150ma to run stone cold since there was next to no load. The 150ma current wasn't enough to prevent the magnetic cogging. I upped the current to about 400ma and the cogging disappeared. Likewise though, I won't be running my lumia at .05 RPM! lol It's just way too slow! I'll see if I can get better video on the wall. That should amplify any adverse artifacts. I'll post later when I get some time.

Yeah, if you already have the the gear reduction motors, don't change up unless they give you trouble.

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Originally Posted by TheHermit

This looks great! Thanks for sharing, Bryan.

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Thanks! Just trying to share the info!

@Adam, I took an updated video with the projection on the wall. I scrutinized the pattern carefully and this time it was absolutely liquid smooth. If there is any stutter in the video, it's got to be compression artifacts. Regardless, this is what it looks like. I'm running an Itty bitty nema 8 motor at about 300ma. Pulsing at about 15hz, 0.07 RPM.

https://youtu.be/Jq3rOlcy05Q?is=7S4-6m8rZyUhQMYU

Hey Bryan,

Yeah, I bought 5 of those steppers with the planetary gearboxes attached back when you first discovered them. But they were only like $35 bucks a pop or so, which wasn't too bad. (Still, they've been mostly sitting in a box for the last 3 years - sigh.)

Regarding the stuttering I saw in the video, I'm starting to think this might be an artifact caused by the Youtube compression rather than actual cogging of the stepper motor. In the latest video you posted, I still noticed some stuttering, although when I loaded the video on Youtube itself and played it full-screen, it was almost completely gone. The fact that it got better with full-screen playback suggests that this is a Youtube issue. And really, it's almost imperceptible - no way I'd notice it if the video wasn't zoomed all the way in like that.

Man, I really need to fish out the box of Lumia parts and get something assembled. It's been far too long! (Especially after Greg spent so much time and effort locating the lumia glass and cutting all those wheels a few years ago...) Makes me wonder if the lasers are still good.

Adam

That's the curse we all have, "If I only had more time... " I still haven't finished my lumia projector! I broke ground, made great progress and have even sat back and watched it paint some great photons. Alas, it's still not complete!

I've been playing around with a 65mm diamond hole saw and was finally able cut a piece of patterned glass without breaking it. Man, that takes forever. Soda lime glass is the worst! I turn the hose to a trickle and let it wash over the glass and saw, run the drill at about 1 RPM and just let the weight of the drill do the work. Any pressure beyond that will result in breaks. Takes about 25 minutes per wheel, so I can see the trouble Greg went through!! By contrast, torture tubes are infinitely easier!! I use the little 4ml borosilicate vials and MAPP gas. Easy peasy!

I bought some borosilicate glass and a MAPP torch specifically so I could make my own torture tubes like we did at SELEM back around 2016 or so, but I haven't messed with them yet. When we did it at SELEM back in Newton though, it was super easy, and the results were fantastic.

Not sure how Greg cuts his lumia wheels, but I *think* he invested in a special saw of some kind (Lapidary saw, maybe?). Either way, I know that it works really well, as the wheels he cut were perfect.

Adam

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Originally Posted by TheHermit

Thanks to this thread, just received the TMC2209 V2.0 Stepper Motor Drivers from Amazon to start developing the electronics & Teensy code.
Adafruit have a pricey one as well and a good infomercial covering its features.
The 4ml vials are cheap, too.
I've had a MAAP torch in my cart for months. But, just learned that MAAP was taken off the market in 2007. Now, there's MAP+P propane, which isn't as hot, but close enough to get the torchery done, I reckon.

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I have found MAPP (MAP+P) to be sufficient. With as thin as the walls are on the 4ml vial, I don't think it matters. The flame turns yellow orange pretty quickly and the glass is soft enough to manipulate. I normally press deformations into the glass, I haven't tried doing any twists or any serious deforming, so I don't know how hot the MAPP gets for that. I got a pack of 100 vials, now I can try some heavier work and if I break a few, no big deal!

When dialing in the TMC2209 drivers, be aware that the current adjustment pot is backward. CCW increases the current, CW lowers it. Steppers are generally pretty robust but if they start getting too toasty, keep in mind the direction to adjust! Also, if using the 64:1 gear reduction steppers, if you're set to 1/64 microstepping on the driver, you won't even see the shaft moving at <200hz. It will move, but it will be like, .5 RPH or less! I think I set my range from 500hz to 7.5khz for testing with those 64:1 steppers.

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Originally Posted by buffo

Interesting that you mentioned an issue with the gears sticking - I haven't experienced that myself, but I've only run mine for bench tests thus far... Hope this isn't a common problem with the planetary gearboxes.

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I think I found why my gear reduction steppers were chugging, I had the current set too low. I was hovering at <100ma when I tested. Once I turned the current up to >300ma, they were smooth.

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Originally Posted by TheHermit

Yin vs Yang
Stepper vs brushless.
SimpleFOCmini Brushless DC Motor Driver Board
I've already designed lumia projector outputs for XY galvos + an I2C bus into the T4 LS VII PCB for RGB DACs & electromechanical whatchamajiggers.
Universal law of dualities:
For everything, there's something else.

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I have messed around a little bit with the SimpleFOCmini... I got mixed results. I tried using a BLDC gimbal motor for the low speed since the winding resistance is much higher than that of drone propeller motors. I think the one I was using was about 15Ω per phase and won't draw 20A+ when the phases go high at such a slow rate. I got some weird cogging that I wasn't able to get rid of. I also tried with a HDD motor and got slightly better results, but still not great. Possibly a limitation of arduino... I'm still not sure. I may try again with a RaspberryPi.

Hi folks,

I’m always glad to share my failures and success with the forum! Here’s a few lumia details to ponder:

1) It was 20+ years of doing stained glass with all the tools needed, that helped immensely when I first started making lumia wheels 20 years ago.

2) I’ve always been told that drilling glass introduces stress fractures that can eventually result in the glass wheels breaking. I see this in stained glass panels where pieces break just from cutting it, soldering it, etc. Sometimes glass has a mind of its own and will crack or run in odd ways - it’s always a pain to have pieces deep in a panel break later after completion… grrr. As a result of this drilling concern, I avoid making wheels with a drill as a means to attach a motor shaft. Maybe others that drill glass have not seen this?

3) Glass cutting boards and shower glass are tempered and cannot be cut unless you have a glass saw. Any attempt to cut tempered glass with a standard glass cutter will result in glass shards everywhere. I only use stained glass and architectural glass suppliers for my wheels.

4) My personal favorite glass pattern and the glass I typically use for wheels is “Clear Cathedral Granite” - beautiful, undulating patterns that swirl back into themselves, 0.5 to 1 rpm gearmotors, 12VDC with a non-PWM speed control (unless the gearing and drive mentioned in this thread will not be visible in the image). I would hope that anyone the forum that I’ve made wheels for in the past would agree that the patterns are nice! Here is a DZ posted video out on YouTube that shows the “Granite” lumia! (Thanks David!)

http://https://youtu.be/ppkL6-QAnLQ?is=y06OTvVzTt2HYp1C

5) I use several tools, including circle cutting jigs, a glass saw and multiple grinders to fabricate my wheels. This includes a motorized jig that grinds each wheel to a consistent diameter, removes any shards on the wheel edges and makes for safer handling of the wheel. I likely have $700-800 in tools that I use to make my wheels.

6) I’ve also used water-jet cutting with Delphi glass, but this really is best suited to doing a large number of wheels. Some of you likely have the 3” wheels with assorted glass types that I had a few years ago at
SELEM.

7) Since I don’t drill glass, I have another jig that centers a spun-aluminum hub onto the wheels, epoxied into place, cured and then it becomes integral to final completion of the wheel. These use a 6mm motor shaft. I also etch the flat side of the glass wheels where the hub is epoxied for better adhesion.

8) I settled on 3” wheels a few years back when I last made them, but I’ve made both larger and smaller, as I think 1.5” to 2” are the smallest I’ve made so far. The hubs are 1” in diameter, so that’s the limiting factor without modifying the hubs.

9) Lastly, I’ve used the low rpm Hankscraft gearmotors, but these are hard to find, used by the model train community and are “used” when they available, plastic gearing, etc. I have since switched to Servo City as a supplier, as they sell a large variety of 6mm shaft gearmotors at prices only slightly more than some of the used Hankscraft motors. I could likely grind wheels on a different shaft diameter, but it will require modifying my current jig to do so.

I’ve got some other wheels that I must finish first, but if there is interest in another group buy for whatever wheel types are desired (and there are MANY choices, Catherdral Granite just being a favorite), that will be the easiest means to do this unless you want to invest in the time and tools to make them yourself.

I’m open to whatever helps - advice or making wheels, just let me know. That’s the “full disclosure”, no hidden secrets…

And a final reminder… carry a laser pointer with you, go to stained glass shops (Hobby Lobby sells clear stained glass including Granite) thrift shops and other places that sell clear glass, crystal and plastic housewares (Home goods, Goodwill, TJ Maxx, IKEA, Ross, etc.). There’s some great glass that’s out there waiting to be discovered… we can talk about acrylic and lenticular plastic wheels as yet more possibilities later.

Thanks,
Greg

Laser Cronies…

I’d also mention torture tubes and dimple tubes, both as done in the past as yet another option. I also have the glass saw, so any cutting of glass to include a consistent size, mounting to actuators, etc., can also be done.

Greg

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Originally Posted by Displaser

Hi folks,

I’m always glad to share my failures and success with the forum! Here’s a few lumia details to ponder

Greg

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Thank you for sharing info, Greg!

I noticed I was have no success cutting glass with the central bit in the hole saw. I finally cut out a centering guide at the same diameter of my hole saw so I could keep the saw centered without using a bit. It worked much better. I was able to get a disc cut out with no issues. I'll say it again, soda lime glass it the worst! lol. I plan to mask and sandblast the center of the glass enough to roughen the surface and then use a motor shaft flange, also roughed, with epoxy to bond the hub to the disc.

I love the Whittemore & Durgin glass. This last sampler pack I ordered had a lot of really good pieces, about 12 in total. I decided to try cutting some tonight. I wanted to get four pieces cut but, because I lost the light, I only got two done. I have been going low and slow with the cutting and it has worked out for me, but man... it takes some time. Not amazingly great results but pretty decent for my rig. It's better than the squares of glass I was dealing with before.

Mounted to these tiny nema 8 motors, each lumia element is only 2.5 inch (63mm) volume. It's pretty damn compact. I can get an overlapped eggbeater element crammed into a 4" wide space. I'm really looking forward to minimizing my projector.

Attachment 62234Attachment 62235Attachment 62236Attachment 62237Attachment 62238

Someone here turned me on to Whittemore & Durgin's sampler years ago.Attachment 62239
In the photo the right side is a Whittemore & Durgin disk cut in two passes. First pass was cutting the 3/8 hole into the center. Then I cut the outside edge while holding the glass down using the 3/8 hole. Both were done with diamond hole saws with about a 60 RPM spindle speed and just enough pressure on the quill to maintain contact. On the left side is a plastic disk from my Laserium days. It has the pebbled texture on one side and the other side is flat.
Attachment 62240
In this picture you can see the difference between the "flat" surfaces via the reflection of the flash. All in all I prefer the old Laserium plastic disk. Its pebbled side is lower frequency and the Whittemore & Durgin seems to have a second higher frequency component to the pebbling that requires careful control of the beam size to make it look the way I want. I've tried to find the Laserium plastic over the years with no success. The plastics I've found don't have a flat side nor the same frequency. Disappointing. I've thought about polishing the Whittemore & Durgin obverse flat or sticking it in a kiln to try to slump the higher frequency features, but so far life has been too short.

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Originally Posted by laserist

All in all I prefer the old Laserium plastic disk. Its pebbled side is lower frequency and the Whittemore & Durgin seems to have a second higher frequency component to the pebbling that requires careful control of the beam size to make it look the way I want.

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I have noticed that when testing with different lasers. The lasers that have a small diameter at aperture and wide divergence need to be "tuned" to get a useable pattern that's not too chaotic, but also not too minimal. Since I'm using diodes in my rig, using the collimator to tune this aspect has been relatively easy. I imagine, if still using ion from the old Laserium days, it adds a little bit more complexity to the optical train. The refractive indices of the different materials probably affects it quite a bit.

Very clean work on your glass, though. I clearly need a lot more practice cutting glass.

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Originally Posted by TheHermit

Yes, beam "diameters" can also be effectively optimized/blurred by scanning. Personally, would rarely scan imagery through any lumia other than diff gratings.
On the other hand, multiple points of different colors and areas can add layers and directional cloud control. Slowly scanned points around sweet spots can also mimic sfx rotation.
For y'alls' static beam use cases, I've also considered using a dichroic pickoff mirror, redirecting low band colors onto one side of the rotating lumia glass, with the high band remains shooting through the opposite side, moving in the opposite direction for bi-directional, bi-chromal layering, and cross fade mixing between.

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I'm mainly a static beam guy for rotational effects but I am working on a selectable, rotating scan-thru turret. I have found that specific, narrow-throw lenticulars are amazing. I don't know where Greg found the the stuff that I bought from him, but it's awesome.

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Ions inherently have smaller diameter, low divergence beams from the get-go, which sharpens the interference patterns.

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Also the perfect multi-line beam profile/alignment :), especially if at TEM00. It just can't be done with dichro combined beams. Maybe some day... Super continuum lasers are still evolving!

I forgot to mention that I turned the glass over after cutting 1/2 way through on the outside diameter to avoid the shattered edge that happens when the hole saw punches through the glass...

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Originally Posted by laserist

I forgot to mention that I turned the glass over after cutting 1/2 way through on the outside diameter to avoid the shattered edge that happens when the hole saw punches through the glass...

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Excellent advice!

I haven't tried cutting glass with a hole-saw, but I have cut some very thick glass mirror stock using a dremel tool and the brown oxide cutting wheels in the past, and in that case I also worked the cut from both sides. It was incredibly slow going though. Those oxide wheels will heat the glass up to glowing temperatures very quickly, at which point it will crack and the crack will run off in a random direction. So you cut a scratch, then wait, then cut a little deeper, then wait... Then flip to the other side and cut a little bit, then more waiting. Ugh.

I suppose if you had a water-cooled saw it might allow you to speed things up a good bit though. (Again, I've never tried this myself...)

Adam

When cutting with the hole saws I did use water cooling. I wouldn't try it with a Dremel - you'd have glass dust thrown everywhere. (Of course dry glass dust is a whole nother problem!) If I do it again I'll make a leak proof aluminum "pool" fixture to hold to glass on one side by its edges, and with a 3/8 inch stud to clamp the glass on the other side via the hole. My setup last time leaked... Not that big a deal, but annoying. I used some anti slip thick shelf liner under the glass to avoid too much stress.
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My setup is as rudimentary as it gets but I was able to get decent results. I also used water cooling, just the hose on a trickle. I cu the glass on a piece of 1/4" plywood. As the wood got wet, the glass was held in place pretty firmly. I just let the hose trickle over the glass and saw. I cut my discs with a cordless drill, so I had to use an acrylic guide to keep the holesaw centered until I had a viable cut groove. I just let the weight of the drill do the work. This is probably all the wrong way to cut these, but I was able to cut 8 discs with no breakage and just a little bit of edge cleanup.

Attachment 62242

I etched and built a new board for the new drivers. Now that my optical deck will be much smaller, I am redesigning my lumia projector. Will this build ever be finished?? lol

Attachment 62243
Attachment 62244

Roger, I cut and etched your board today. I'll do my best to get it in the mailbox tomorrow.

Some pics of my process:
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