No See Um Netting

Inspired by the talk of NoSeeUm netting I contacted David at Skeeta and arranged to purchase a 3 metre square piece.
This arrived today so I set about trying it out.
First things first, I think I went a bit overboard on the size.
http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...&pictureid=163

Although it's a big piece, the weight (according to the shipping document) was just 9.6 grams. No idea what that is in proper money but it's pretty lightweight stuff.
As it was so big I had to test it outside so I planned to suspend it between two lighting stands.
That's when I discovered that it's pretty good at catching the wind. http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...&pictureid=164
Even though there was hardly any breeze, the thing was all over the place and the lighting stands had no chance of holding it steady.
I had to run some Garden Twine (cus that's strong enough) between two handy trees to hold it in place. Even then, the breeze still took it so I had to weigh the bottom down and eventually run twine through the bottom fold over to keep it relatively stable.

Here's a pic of the netting with the (redundant) lighting stands either side. http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...&pictureid=165

As Darkness fell I fired up the smoke machine and clicked away.
http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...&pictureid=166
http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...&pictureid=167

There are more pics in my gallery.

My impression is that using a scrim definitely adds to a laser show.
No longer do you have to peer at a back wall to see graphics so it adds an extra dimension to shows with folks able to appreciate the beams coming at 'em (above head height of course) as well as appreciating the graphics or just the pretty patterns.

The service from David at Skeeta was excellent.
I rang him with my requirements and asked for an extra flap to be added to the bottom (to weigh it down) after I had received my original quote and David agreed to add the extra fold over for the original price.
The order was shipped on Monday and arrived four days later so no worries about the mailing service either.

Just make sure you think about the size of scrim you need !!

Looks ideal...

Do you mind me asking How much did it cost? And do you know if it is certified fireproof..

If you have a QM2000, watch Gradient Moby through the scrim... Amazing!!!!!

Cheers
Mark

amazing! i need to buy me some :)

;)

Thanks, I have book marked the site. Unfortunatly they are located in Florida. I will have to pay sales tax... :rolleyes:

How much did it cost?

that stretched over a loop of PVC would work great

It is great stuff!!

Buffo had his set up for SELEM, and it worked perfect for our venue!
I've since added a couple of pieces to my inventory, as well!

RGBLaserFan -

The folks at Skeeta (www.skeeta.com) will be glad to quote you a price (shipping, custom size, the works) for whatever size you need! You 'll want to order your piece with a rod pocket along the top length for hanging it from a support rod, and possibly another pocket along the bottom for weights (or you can do like I did and just use spring clamps).

The gray "NoSeeUm" seems to be about the best for laser show scrim use.

Good stuff!! :)

Looks really good..

Just sent off for pricing... ouch shipping to NZ !!!

Ray

Hey Soforene! -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by soforene

Inspired by the talk of NoSeeUm netting I contacted David at Skeeta ...

My impression is that using a scrim definitely adds to a laser show.
...it adds an extra dimension to shows with folks able to appreciate the beams coming at 'em (above head height of course) as well as appreciating the graphics or just the pretty patterns.

...The service from David at Skeeta was excellent.

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Glad to hear of your good experience with David / Skeeta - isn't he just a great chap? Super nice, and real 'old-world' values (ie: who just does changes but only charges you for the original price, ya know?? :)

As to the scrim, yeah, you'll wanna find a good way to lash-it - what we do (and I know this is a REALLY big example..) is zip-tie a vinyl-clad steel-cable thru the top-pocket, and send a piece of PVC thru the bottom-pocket, then cinch-up the top, and let the bottom just hang (indoors) - PVC is cheap, lightweight (but plenty-heavy enough to weight this featherlight stuff, especially indoors) and won't snag or tear the material, like iron pipe would...

But for outdoors, the secret to a nice, wind-strong scrim with this stuff - (even for obnoxiously-big ones like the 20' x 30', there..) is to pass a rope that is ~10' longer than your pipe (20' if you wanna have the scrim-base 10' off-the ground) THRU the entire length of the PVC in the base, then tie-down the longer 'tails' at like, a 45˚ down to the ground / stakes / sandbags, etc. - This way, the tension is distributed thru the entire length of the scrim, (and the top is already-so, cause the cable up-top takes all the tension) and there is never any really potentially scrim-tearing 'stress-points' as-if you tried to zip-tie / grommet just the corners... dig? :)

And once you project color thru it, you'll really appreciate how razor-crisp your graphics look, yet, like you said, you get that 'extra dimension' for your audience... Tip: put your fogger / fan in front of your scrim, to maximize those 'pass-thru' atmospheric fx... (see below... :)

RE:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Insanity

And do you know if it is certified fireproof..

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Well, not sure we can say if it is 'certified' or not - worth a call to Skeeta - but I can testify, we've had fire marshals on gigs insist on doing an actual 'flame-test' (fortunately, we had a small scrap to test with...) and it did not stay lit - it just shrank-back and smoked a bit - that is what they look for, if it will STAY lit, or just go-out by itself. So, it passed. But, 'certified '- ???? ..ask David, I guess... :cool:

Anyhoo, njoy, and keep the pix comin - look great! :)

peace
j

Cheers for the fogger tip dsli_Jon. ;)

The postage to the UK was $25 with the material itself costing $35.
This included the custom sewing to add pockets top and bottom (essential really) and linking 2 pieces together to provide the width.
The join was evident in daylight but during use was not noticeable and did not detract from the display.
The quality of the workmanship was first class too.http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...&pictureid=178

David at Skeeta mentioned that they could supply any size up to 30 metres !! :eek:

As is becoming apparent with other peoples input, you really do need to secure any scrim to present a flat surface to project your lasers onto (or maybe it's because I went for the "obnoxious size" :p ).

I was under the mistaken impression that I could just "hang it" and it would remain static.
Evn indoors I'd guess that the slightest air current would move the scrim (unless properly tethered) thereby sending your display all skew-whiff.

I guess if there's other folks in the UK that wants some of this stuff we could all get together and place a combined order. That should keep the shipping down to a reasonable level, we may even get a price break.

How about we ask the seller to put a posting up here on PL with some 'standard' sizes and postage costs. This would save him getting loads of individual enquiries and perhaps get him more business.

Any thoughts?

Jem

Jem,

I found this stuff in the UK but how it compares, I'm not sure. Its available off the roll in fibreglass mesh also (scroll down to the bottom):

http://www.flyscreenqueen.co.uk/windows.htm

They do a fibreglass based mesh as well as a poyester mesh, the main difference appearing to be increased rigidity with fibreglass.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RGBLaserFan

Jem,

I found this stuff in the UK but how it compares, I'm not sure. Its available off the roll in fibreglass mesh also (scroll down to the bottom):

http://www.flyscreenqueen.co.uk/windows.htm

They do a fibreglass based mesh as well as a poyester mesh, the main difference appearing to be increased rigidity with fibreglass.

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does look good - liking the rigidity with the fibreglass - guessing it would highly fire safe too :)

looks great make sure you bring it to the 3.5 meet

Coincidence?
I have projected my laser on something similar to this - some sort of net against mosquito's next to my bed this afternoon, and it looked... well... my laser has only... er... 2K scan speed :o.

So I discovered my laser is not good for graphic shows :).

[edit:] Finally! 30 messages! I'm a Member now!
Moohaa!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by andy_con

looks great make sure you bring it to the 3.5 meet

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I'm planning to.
Just hope that the hall that Jim's arranged is high enough. :)

Hey Sofo -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by soforene

Cheers for the fogger tip dsli_Jon. ;)

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Sure thing! - and just fyi, we use the same method for our smaller, indoor scrims, that we use for the giant ones - just use a smaller-diameter cable across the top (just make sure it's vinyl-clad, so no chafing, etc) and even 1/2" PVC thru the bottom pockey will suffice for weight - here's another good 'pass-thru' example, indoors...

...killer avatar, btw ‹(O¿O)› :D
cheers..

Hey Jem -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jem

How about we ask the seller to put a posting up here on PL with some 'standard' sizes and postage costs. This would save him getting loads of individual enquiries and perhaps get him more business.

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We have a couple scrims on order with David right now - I'll talk to him about this, and see his thoughts - good idea to have a single or limited-point of requests, so he does not get inundated, and tell everybody to just go bugger-off, ya know?...

What sizes would be of interest over on that side of the pond? Here, seems like 2 x 3-ratio sizes are pretty common, and 'widescreen' sizes, too (2 x 4) - ie: we use 10' x 10', 12' x 15', 20' x 20', 20' x 30' and 40' x 60' (!!) - 20' x 30' is the biggest we've tested / use outdoors - too scared to try the granddaddy on a show, but maybe sometime...:rolleyes: ...lemme know...

cheers..
j

Quote:

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Originally Posted by soforene

I'm planning to.
Just hope that the hall that Jim's arranged is high enough. :)

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excellent, look forward to it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsli_jon

Hey Sofo -



Sure thing! - and just fyi, we use the same method for our smaller, indoor scrims, that we use for the giant ones - just use a smaller-diameter cable across the top (just make sure it's vinyl-clad, so no chafing, etc) and even 1/2" PVC thru the bottom pockey will suffice for weight - here's another good 'pass-thru' example, indoors...

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Sounds like some good tips there Jon. I can see something wrong with that video though John as there's a lot of laser light actually passing through the scrim as beams. Maybe its the laser power your using or maybe the scrims a bit too open weave, but I personally find the beams distract and obscure the graphics behind that are on the scrim.

Compare your scrim to Soforenes, and you'll see what I mean, his beams seem to stop dead at the scrim (apologies for the picture size I can't control the size as its linked to Soferen's gallery):

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...&pictureid=156


Most other scrim based shows are like this so you obviously have a problem somewhere with either laser power or weave size as you're getting too much beam penetration.

Hey RGB -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RGBLaserFan

Sounds like some good tips there Jon. I can see something wrong with that video though John as there's a lot of laser light actually passing through the scrim as beams. Maybe its the laser power your using or maybe the scrims a bit too open weave, but I personally find the beams distract and obscure the graphics behind that are on the scrim.

Most other scrim based shows are like this so you obviously have a problem somewhere with either laser power or weave size as you're getting too much beam penetration.

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lol - that is the whole POINT, my friend! - pass-thru - what you are not realizing is that the 'obscurity' of the graphics in the video are only because #1, the video-quality of this clip was crap to begin-with (VHS-C >> digital, scaled 2x >> YT) then YuckTube codecs degrade it even further - worsened by the fact that #2, this particular camera's CCD can't 'take' the extreme-high contrast of 16 Watts of Laser-light blasting-out from darkness, (and made 3x worse by a lot of fog/haze being in the air) while it is in 'slow-shutter' mode, which is used to cut-down on the typical 'flicker' and 'missing segments' you see on most videos of laser shows (due to interference between the scan-rate of the camera and the scan-rate of the galvos) - so, perfectly-accurate, 'how-it-looks-in-real-life' clarity is not possible via this method, because this camera always 'blows-out' the contrast... the graphcis + atmospherics are beautiful in real-life..

So the point is, you're making a judgment on something not looking good, when your method of evaluating how it really looks in real-life is 'handicapped' (video) - still-shots give a better idea of the true clarity and crispness of the graphics - ie: this...

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...1&d=1221938556

...gives a much better idea of how crisp, yet engaging it looks in real-life, even with a high-power system. Even so, nothing can match the real-life experience of being there, so next time you are in the US, why not come to one of our shows, where we're using one of these scrims with a high-power WL, and then post a review?! :D

The only purpose of YouTube is simply to give people an 'accessible-from-anywhere' idea of how the lasers are synced with music (because a lot of potential-clients who've never seen a laser-show, don't 'get' what is happening, even seeing the clear still-shots) and
a general idea of how they look in-space - if they really need to see clarity, then we send them a DVD with hi-res video.

Dig? :cool:

peace...
j

Hi Jon

It would be great if you could talk to David and get him to pop his head in here sometime. I reckon that 2 x 3 aspect ratio would be pretty good for most folks here. Just need to work out a few standard sizes :)

Look forward to developments.

Cheers

Jem

These scrims are a great find... Compared to official laser screens they are a fraction of the price...
I would be interested in getting possibly two of them. 3Mtr x 3Mtr and 1Mtr x 1Mtr for home use...
I'm not so sure about the fibreglass stuff though. It have been looking for some king of scrim and tried of all things 'Hatmakers Weave' I is a fine mesh and is pretty stiff.. The graphics look great on the screen, but the fibres making the mesh are thicker, so the beams coming out the front are visibly split.. Sorry, don't have a photo:( I have a feeling the fibreglass stuff might give the same effect.

Jon - You seem to have an amazing photo for every occasion... Keep em coming:D

Cheers
Mark

Hey Jem -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jem

Hi Jon

It would be great if you could talk to David and get him to pop his head in here sometime. I reckon that 2 x 3 aspect ratio would be pretty good for most folks here. Just need to work out a few standard sizes :)

Look forward to developments.

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Actually spoke to David last night about it (he's repairing a tear in one of ours, right now...) and he said to the extent that we can make them in sections of 3' wide (ie: 9' rather than 10') that will be less-expensive than one with a little 1' piece sewn-on... but I told him that may not always be possible, cause sometimes, we need to have a square (ie: 10' x 10') or one that fits a standard video-screen, for example, and that may-not always fall-into multiples of 3'...

So, here's an idea - here is a 'starter' of some common sizes - why don't you all add to this as you see fit / desire, and I'll send to David, and post his reply, with pricing... And rest-assured, you will NOT see 'mark-up' from me / us - these will be his direct-prices - we neither have time nor desire to be a 'distributor' for them - we're on the road too much to be attentive to that - best you all go to Skeeta, direct for your goodies...

OK, here's a starter-list:
(Sizes are H x W)

2' x 3' (for shop programming / small demos / laser-signs, etc)
4' x 5' ( " )
10' x 10'
12' x 16'
15' x 20'
20' x 20',
20' x 30'
????

I also asked him to give us pricing for various options; ie: single-stich (for pockets), double-stich (for stronger, outdoor / larger scrims), all-4-side pockets, with cut-off corners (in-place of gromments, which won't work with this material - too delicate...) and corner-reinforcing patches (again, for the larger, outdoor scrims)...

lemme know.. PS I'll be offline till tomorrow, so please be patient...

RE:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Insanity

Jon - You seem to have an amazing photo for every occasion... Keep em coming:D

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Hahaha...Thanks! - yeah, after 15 years of doing shows, they tend to pile-up on ya! :D

Cheers...:cool:
J

John it wasn't intended to be review and I didn't mean to offend you. It was just an observation on the video you posted. If nobody ever critiques anything, then nobody ever gets better or understands why things are the way they are be it poor video or actual effect problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsli_jon

..16 Watts of Laser-light blasting-out from darkness...

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Blimey. :eek:
All I had at my command was 250 mw so it's no wonder there was little penetration.
Added to that was the fact that I was pumping out smoke behind the scrim which (based on what I know now) is bound to degrade the viewing experience.

I quite like the fact that beams come through the scrim and can be viewed by the audience creating a pattern/graphic before carrying on over their heads.
That's part of the extra dimension that I was talking about.

If you just want to back project, buy a telly. ;)

I'd be interested in a 3 x 4 and a 12 x 16, but would like to know prices :)

Jem

http://www.skeeta.com/html/netting/m...um_netting.htm
Prices :)

Hey RGB -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RGBLaserFan

John it wasn't intended to be review and I didn't mean to offend you. It was just an observation on the video you posted. If nobody ever critiques anything, then nobody ever gets better or understands why things are the way they are be it poor video or actual effect problem.

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No offense taken, m8! :cool: But my point to you was that you were saying that 'something is wrong' in the way we're doing this / wrong material, etc, and I am just saying that from where I sit, the only thing 'wrong' is the crappy video... :D - you really need to see it in real-life with this much power - graphics are quite crisp and not 'obscured' at all, and the atmospherics are amazingly breathtaking, not distracting...

And you're right - we need crits to learn, so thanks for reminding me how very bad YuckTube makes things look! :D - now that they support 'high-quality' we'll have to re-rip and re-post - but no time for now... gotta saddle up for another sho...

cheers...

Hey Jem -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jem

I'd be interested in a 3 x 4 and a 12 x 16, but would like to know prices :)

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I'll send all our requests to him as a list at once - what I need is input from any interested 'scrimmers' on other sizes than those I listed - what would be most in-demand over in Europe / Aussieland / Northern Eurolands?? etc, etc...

Lemme know - otherwise, I will be sending him just the above list - and of course, each will have to get shipping to their own country quoted separate - I don't think there is an 'all-encompassing' way to quote pricing for that (???)

cheers... ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cruch

http://www.skeeta.com/html/netting/m...um_netting.htm
Prices :)

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Yes, but that does not take into account custom-cut sizes / sewing / pockets / reinforcements etc... But what I can tell you is they are VERY reasonable - ie: our 20' x 30'-ers are like $400. - that, compared to the $1250. we paid for an equal-size fiberglass-mesh a few years back - and that was USED!! :eek:

So, Skeeta is way :cool: - not the end-all / be-all material, but great prices and great results, IMHO... :D

ciao for now..
j

Gee I would have thought that with 250mm you would get good penetration..

oops sorry just re read it its 250 milliwatts not 250 millimeters
that would have been 9.84 inches.... penetration ... pretty good I think:p

Oooohhh you are awful !!
But I like you.

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...&pictureid=191

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pitts

Gee I would have thought that with 250mm you would get good penetration..

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by soforene

Oooohhh you are awful !!
But I like you.

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...&pictureid=191

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:D

Not sure anyone but us Brits will get that though :rolleyes:

Jem

But the world doesn't have to be "Americacentric".
I propose we beat that lot across the Pond and rebrand our UKLEM's "The World Series Laser Enthusiasts Meets" - WOSLEM !!
:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by soforene

But the world doesn't have to be "Americacentric".
I propose we beat that lot across the Pond and rebrand our UKLEM's "The World Series Laser Enthusiasts Meets" - WOSLEM !!
:D

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Don't challenge us.. We love a challenge! :p

Adam

WOSLEM ?

Cool - I'm in!! :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RGBLaserFan

Jem,

I found this stuff in the UK but how it compares, I'm not sure. Its available off the roll in fibreglass mesh also (scroll down to the bottom):

http://www.flyscreenqueen.co.uk/windows.htm

They do a fibreglass based mesh as well as a poyester mesh, the main difference appearing to be increased rigidity with fibreglass.

---

Order 4 metres of the gray fibreglass - will let u know how i get on with it soon :)

Sorry Lads.


Same rules as your World Series Baseball thingumybob.

• Only home teams can enter.
• You have to partake of Tea and Crumpets at 3 o'clock in the afternoon.
• You must be able to talk about the weather for hours on end.
• You must display an intricate knowledge of the difference between wit, sarcasm and taking the piss.

This is a not a definitive list and home players may add to it to define what makes us quintessentially British.

God Save The Queen !
http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...&pictureid=192

Quote:

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Originally Posted by soforene

This is a not a definitive list and home players may add to it to define what makes us quintessentially British.

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Oh, oh! I know, I know! I've got something to add to the list of characteristics that make you "quintessentially British".... (And I am *so* going to hell for this next comment...)>:)

Er... On second thought - no. I'm not going there. :o Bad taste and all..

Ah, screw it. >:) We're all adults here, right? ;) We can take a bit of ribbing... (And besides, how likely would it be for someone from the UK to travel all the way to the US just to beat my ass because I offended them? :eek: Yeah, not very likely...:rolleyes: OK - go for it!) >:)

Ok - then # 5 on the list of qualifications required to participate in the UK world series of lasers would be:

Loosing the revolutionary war to the bloody Yanks... :p

Ok - start throwing your tomatoes now. :o I *told* you it was in bad taste. But come on, the setup was soooooo good.>:)

No? Not so good? Ahh hell. Every time I think I might have maybe crossed the line, I soon discover that I actually crossed it long ago, and the cheers of the crowd are actually chanting "off with his head!" Dang...:(

Adam

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/...0&CS_010=61001

The stuff from Skeeta.com is half that price though... for the same material.

Adam

I have another prerequisite for the list:

You have to know what "smoking a fag" really means!!

Sure caught me off guard the first time I heard it in that part of the world!! :eek:

Like we say here in Tennessee, "Y'all talk kinda' funny!!"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsli_jon

now that they support 'high-quality' we'll have to re-rip and re-post - but no time for now... gotta saddle up for another sho...

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Try SD MPEG 4 at 4,000kbs. Thats what I use and it produces some very nice results. That said, if anyone knows a better setting still, I'm all ears.

Here's a test file I've put up from my camcorder for you at those settings (my other vids were in low light so not a true representation):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRKUwLcV_GE&fmt=18

Quote:

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Originally Posted by buffo

Loosing the revolutionary war to the bloody Yanks... :p

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Apparently we let you win because you cried:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QotYryA3uss&fmt=18

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RGBLaserFan

Apparently we let you win because you cried:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QotYryA3uss&fmt=18

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Touche`

Adam

PS: Glad we can joke about it. Was more than a little concerned that I shouldn't post that above - but decided to go for it anyway. >:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by buffo

Touche`

Adam

PS: Glad we can joke about it. Was more than a little concerned that I shouldn't post that above - but decided to go for it anyway. >:)

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I'm not easily offended, love a bit of banter. :p

is this stuff flame retardant ?

Why not drop an email to David at Skeeta.
He's best placed to know about the tech specs of his product. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aijii

is this stuff flame retardant ?

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I asked the same question and here is the reply from DLSIJon, who seems to use it a lot...

Well, not sure we can say if it is 'certified' or not - worth a call to Skeeta - but I can testify, we've had fire marshals on gigs insist on doing an actual 'flame-test' (fortunately, we had a small scrap to test with...) and it did not stay lit - it just shrank-back and smoked a bit - that is what they look for, if it will STAY lit, or just go-out by itself. So, it passed. But, 'certified '- ???? ..ask David, I guess...

Hope that helps

Cheers
Mark

Based on the info received on supporting the netting (isn't this just the dandiest forum!) I tracked down some 3 metre piping from a builders mechant.
As it was 21mm by 3 metres it easily fitted into the 3" sleeve sewn into the netting. http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...&pictureid=195
Once it was in place, it highlighted an discrepancy with my ordered netting though as I had ordered a 3M x 3M piece of netting but had only been supplied with a 2.7M x 3M piece (I hadn't bothered to measure it on arrival).
No biggie for me but if anyone orders a specific size for a specific job, it might be worth stressing that you want the size as ordered.

It was the mention of stress points that prompted me to go for the pipe solution and it has to be said that the pipe does indeed spread the load evenly across the scrim (as you'd expect).
http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...&pictureid=196

It's still very susceptible to the slightest breeze though (as you'd expect from what is in effect a big sail) so secure tethering is highly recommended.

You can also use net curtain material - available from any high-street fabric shop. You can enhance the effect by washing the net in any washing detergent that has fluorescent whitening agent in - the stuff that makes clubbers 'T' shirts glow blue-white under UV - or by using 'invisible' UV paint - the sort that glows blue under UV light. The effect works well if you have several layers a few feet apart, you get a '3D' look; it also helps to keep the smoke where you want it to stay.
It would be interesting to make a fabric or polythene cube - or other polygonal geometric shape!!) fed by a fogger and project the laser into that - not tried it myself but may do one day!

On a similar subject, white vinyl shower curtains (under a fiver from B&Q) make good cheap projection screens! Hem the edges with nylon cord inside the hem, then use 'punch-through' eyelets every 6" - the nylon cord stops tearing under tension. Use plastic pipe for the frame and lace the screen to it with a slight tension to keep the screen flat.

Bring your curtain net and shower curtain to UKLEM 3 1/2 and we can do a comparison.
;)