ILDA Accreditation

http://www.laserist.org/certificatio...-companies.htm

Have a read of it guys. Personally, I do not agree. Awards ? Minimum level of technical complexity in the shows we run ? Bah. I'm sure we wouldn't have ea problem meeting most of the items on that list... but I think its the wrong path for ILDA to take, and will see ILDA LOSE members.

Edwin Dolby's posting to the ILDA list raises a great point which i will repost here:

"I think this initiative is heading ILDA in totally the wrong direction.

This approach seems to be driven by emotion rather that rational though.

The route problem as I see it is people/companies feel that lesser
people/companies or even rouge laserists are effecting the perception of
all laser companies (I think we all mainly agree on this point). I have
heard many times that anybody can be an ILDA member if the pay their dues
etc. This became apparent with the Russian laser incident. People with no
education effected all of us. This is the problem.

The solution to this problem of being lumped in with every other laserist
and rouge is not accreditation.
Simply no government, police, or more importantly media organization will
care.
Clients don’t care. No one cares. All we will hear about the next incident
is “some guy with a laser….eye damage….” Will our answer be “well he is a
member but not accredited”
So it really does not help.

This exclusionary approach to safety and standards of practice etc will
not help ILDA members because it does not reach rouges or non-ILDA
members. These are the people we must reach as they cause the most
problems for the rest of us.

We have to stop the next incident not just try to separate ourselves from
the next incident (or these people).
We cannot separate ourselves from these people, so let’s change them. It’s
to our advantage and theirs. (Mutual Advantage)

I think we should look at this more like educators.

We need to be as inclusionary as possible so we have a chance to effect
change in the people and companies’ practices that make us vulnerable.

We could make an ILDA safety course online WBT (Web Based Training).
Every ILDA member must go through the course and take the exam (online)
afterwards.
I used to manage a Web Base Learning company, this is not hard and worth
the investment.
If new ILDA issues come up we simply add it in to the training course.

Beside your ILDA logo you would get an “S” for completing the safety course.
Perhaps if you own a safety power meter you get a “+”

So you could build up enhancements to your status (or perhaps they would
he mandatory).

We could produce standards of business practice, and projector wiring
courses too.

Inclusionary approaches are the only way!

Let’s stop this accreditation talk right now as I have just demonstrated
it provides no advantage (in fact DIS-advantages) to ILDA members or
laserists and there are better solutions to meet our collective ends.

Best Regards, (and all due respect to Patrick for many reasons!)

Edwin Dolby

Edwin Dolby
Laser Productions Ltd
T: (403) 692-0292
F: (403) 366-5595
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Blackberry PIN 30073960
info@laserproductions.ca
www.laserproductions.ca"

I agree with you. It is all a very bad idea and I don't think there are many people willing to be bothered with those requirements to be in the "ILDA Club".

I don't think I will renew my membership when it comes up for renewal.

And I was this close to joining... :( Very good post by Mr. Dolby in response. http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...ons/icon14.gif

Hear Hear- The main accreditation thing I would be concerned with is maybe proof of adherence to some kind of standardized safety checklist. Other than that, view a sample of what the company can do & enjoy the show!
-Mike

Gosh. I really really want to be a "professional"



Ummmm.


I believe I'll pass; I mean hey----I'm new, will never do 15 shows, most likely will get legal with all my gear. The whole tone of the program or what-ever they call it to be a "professional", nah, screw all that.

As a newcomer to the scene...I understand being safe and all, but the uppity tone got me.

I am a member of ILDA as are many of you..
Although I am only a "newbie" at two years odd.
I personally don't like where this is taking ILDA.... seems to smack of an "elite" commercial group.

It is in effect protectionism for those that are "in" and making it harder for those "aspiring" to get in.
Imagine as a client you have one supplier as an "ILDA approved Professional" and the other who is not... guess who is going to get the job. The client doesn't know so may rely on the ILDA list as the best resource..

Have a look at how many points are awarded for safety (small) compared to how many are awarded for numbers of shows performed.(large) !!
All that means is you may have done a sh@t load of shows unsafely and been lucky.(as some say "show us the body bags".. still doesnt make it right though !)

"Endorsements from clients"... what a load of rubbish !!!, you can show someone new a laser beam doing a circle and they think its great. Its like letting the blind lead the blind it really is no endorsment at all other than the client was happy and no one is blind.

I recently spoke to an experienced "pro" show provider (over 20years I believe).. on the subject of audience scanning and safety.. his reply "well its OK if the beam is moving and not sitting still !!! "... AND he believes it.
OK so he would comply and could be on the inner "elite" with his long experienced background...... hardly the basis for a "pro" in my opinion.

If as a client I wanted to know if my show provider has a good safety record and to see if he is "Laser show safety competant and certified"... do we have an ILDA certificate of basic safety competence ??
I do know one is planned and has been in the pipeline for some time... I did see a glimpse when in the USA earlier this year and it looks real good..:D Maybe this is where the effort should be going.

The underlying reason for this scheme seems to me NOT to be safety but protectionism of the few. The facts are the laser world like many others is changing.
It is easier to get into it than it was (thank goodness). Will it help to "isolate" the newbies as second rate laser operators.... I don't think so.

It is easier for people to get into lasers now..... Learn to live with it.:D
as they say "build a bridge and get over it".
With or without ILDA this growth is going to continue.

Education, encouragement, safety training and certification (voluntary) may be a better goal for ILDA to be aiming at.
An ILDA "safety certified" operator is going to appeal to both the client and the governent enforcers (OSH here in NZ) than what is proposed.. (yes I know ILDA do good work on this now but lets see this as the thrust )

Like Jon who posted directly to the ILDA "battle"..
I too would like to thank ILDA. Patrick, Bill, Greg and the many others who make ILDA work for us.. but hey guys I think this one is just plain out wrong.

OK I'll get off my soapbox now..

Cheers:):):)

Ray
NZ

I don't think ILDA is all bad. But it's not all good either.

My own experience with its (then) technical standards and specifications committee chair and some of its other members over the past few years is proof of that.

One would think that arithmetic proof of concept would be enough to convince a technical standards and specifications committee.

It is not.

If they keep up with their attitude, it will be their own undoing.

I have added a lot to the computer science aspects of laser display. I have offered my knowledge to ILDA several times.

Clearly, some of them have egos that are much more important than any real, proven technology.

I've never been given an explaination; only an excuse. All I ever hear is that these things are decided by committee, so no one person has to take the blame.

If ILDA won't recognize my efforts and enhancements to the computer science aspects of lasers, then my ideas will have to exist outside of that which is ILDA.

So what does that tell you about ILDA?

ILDA isn't really all about laser display. It's about money, power and ego with a little bit of laser display.

"Inclusive" is not a word I would associate with ILDA.

James. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by James Lehman

I don't think ILDA is all bad. But it's not all good either.

My own experience with its (then) technical standards and specifications committee chair and some of its other members over the past few years is proof of that.

One would think that arithmetic proof of concept would be enough to convince a technical standards and specifications committee.

It is not.

If they keep up with their attitude, it will be their own undoing.

I have added a lot to the computer science aspects of laser display. I have offered my knowledge to ILDA several times.

Clearly, some of them have egos that are much more important than any real, proven technology.

I've never been given an explaination; only an excuse. All I ever hear is that these things are decided by committee, so no one person has to take the blame.

If ILDA won't recognize my efforts and enhancements to the computer science aspects of lasers, then my ideas will have to exist outside of that which is ILDA.

So what does that tell you about ILDA?

ILDA isn't really all about laser display. It's about money, power and ego with a little bit of laser display.

"Inclusive" is not a word I would associate with ILDA.

James. :)

---

James,

Please don't make this yet anthor topic about YOU en the battle for ilda formats :-) (an no i'm not trying to offend you this time)
There are lager things going on now.

I'm an "outsider" and a resonable newbee in the whole laser scene.
it comes to me as elitist.

If ILDA wants a safer use of lasers(showsytems) maybe they could focus their effords towards GOOD but cheap and accessible education (online) for all serious laser hobbyists and pro's.
Just like mr Dolby pointed out.

I know for sure that alot of people here are willing to take online safety and technical courses.
It serves the whole community rather than one group.

The issue of the file format is just one good example of the inner workings of ILDA.

I might seem like the bad guy to you, but I'm the guy who dared to ask why.

As far as I can see ILDA has been a very poor custodian of their own standards. If they are going to set standards for the whole world they need to be responsible for them.

Saying this is how it is because ILDA says so is not responsible. It is the definition of elitism.

James. :)

If you want to become licensed to handle freon, you have to take a training course and pass an exam. These days, most people do it online. It costs about $25 all in and it makes sure nobody's going to pollute the atmosphere with waste freon and nobody's going to blow themselves up with leaked propane or butane (which is used as a refrigerant these days).

I don't see laser safety as being any different. Online training and exams would be totally adequate and if it were easier to get the training, I think a lot of the laser pointer jerks would take it. Even better, if it were easy and inexpensive and checkable, laser companies could reasonably refuse to sell to anyone who hasn't taken the requisite course for the type of laser they were selling.

This seems to me to be a proactive and reasonable way to improve the state of the industry and I would love to see ILDA take this route to improving safety and the state of the art in general.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by heroic

If you want to become licensed to handle freon, you have to take a training course and pass an exam. These days, most people do it online. It costs about $25 all in and it makes sure nobody's going to pollute the atmosphere with waste freon and nobody's going to blow themselves up with leaked propane or butane (which is used as a refrigerant these days).

---

Exactly so why can't anyone do this for lasers?

The courses I've seen in the UK tend to cost around £500 - about $800. That's a lot of money for anyone who's a non professional and require classroom attendance - not always convenient and can mean other expenses such as travel, meals and accommodation.

I agree entirely with Pitts (Ray's) sentiment above, I hope you posted that on the ILDA forums as its even better than Edwin Dolby's post in my opinion.

As you say, number of professional shows means nothing other than you've been getting paid for them. There are people out there in the hobbyist world who've never done a show in their life but who are safer than some of the companies operating every night of the week.

Thats OK, I can come up with the PL on line safety test. And make it tough enough to be respectable.

But there are multiple levels to the ILDA cert, for example the basic show op one is not that bad.
I dont know that many people who could pass the professional, period, maybe less then 10.


Steve

Note: Be aware that this new thing is not to be an ILDA member but to be certified as a profressional ILDA laser show dude or something like that. In fact, you don't even have to be an ILDA member to get it, but it costs more. So, don't get being an ILDA member and this new certification thing confused.

However, I think that the whole certification idea is so bad that it embarasses me to be associated with ILDA and that is why I am turned off and won't renew. That isn't the only reason I have considered not renewing but that is the last nail in the coffin. I'm only an individual member so it is no big loss to them.

IF they want to certify you, it should be a very nominal fee like (dare i say it) taking a gun safety coarse, or ATV training (which is free).

If safety is the goal, then why charge for it?

obviously safety is not the issue, rather here is a way for The ILDAto exploit fear and make money...

This should be a free coarse that you can take to get your card (like cpr classes)

However, I think that the whole certification idea is so bad that it embarasses me to be associated with ILDA and that is why I am turned off and won't renew. That isn't the only reason I have considered not renewing but that is the last nail in the coffin. I'm only an individual member so it is no big loss to them.[/QUOTE]

I'll Call YOur Bluff:

Did you participate in ILDA activities or did you just set there and read the laserist 6 times a year? Did you send a proxy vote in when the board voted on issues? Did you even work on a varience, or ask another ILDA member if you could go out and work a show with them, even as a volunteer? Did you try to do a Sphegetti writeup in the laserist or on the web page? NOOOO? I rest my case.

You guys are kvetching over a draft proposal that even Bill Benner would have a hard time passing. Its a freakin test file to see how many people can score what, and then it will be adjusted downwords.

Because I only go out and do one or two big shows a year )but big shows, 3000 or more audience usually) I'd have a hard time passing that, although I do have a award to make it much easier.

Most people here would be going for the yet to be published Show Operator anyways!

Hum, lets do a survey, number of PL members in the States or elsewhere that have the government paperwork to do shows in public????? I bet that's a tiny number. Number of you that have actually teched on a pro show????? Tiny number!

How many of you earn more then 10% of your income working with lasers?

Number of you that have professional certification in your career field? Tiny number!

So don't gripe about a professional certification you can't earn.

Start thinking about talking to ILDA about a Safety Certified Laser Hobbyist. I;ll call Tim Walsh and ask.

Its gonna cost, if its anything like the Laserfreak.de semisponsered stuff, about 100-200$ to get, most of which would be travel to some professional near you to take a test and you'll have to attend a written test. So that the rest of us know you took the test and not a friend setting there helping you.

If we do it right, and its respectable, it could help you with CDRH etc.

Oh, and there will be a study guide and some math to do. Go take a look at the ham radio licensing system for a model, tests administered by volunteers, 70% is passing, multiiple choice test. 6 or 7 varients of the test questions, randomly issued and changed each year. I took A semester long course in Test and measurement for educators, and I and others will construct a statistically valid test that requires brainwork.

Ie not show up at selem, set through 4 hours of safety lecture, and go home certified.

DSLI Jon does more professional laser shows per square centimeter/seconds and I'd bet he'd have a hard time passing that draft. There are folks whom have spent 15 years as a laser artist in a back room designing shows and doing artwork, that have never went out in the field, and thus would never pass that draft.

So relax and lets work with ILDA, and get a hobbyist specific test that would help you, not just be another PL bitch session.

Dammit Show some freakin backbone people!

Steve

OK, I had a talk with Pat Murphy, he's open to a written proposal to ILDA, and not just my proposals. Don't know if he likes the idea, cause he wants to see more details.
I'll start writing it up. I'm open to suggestions, but the draft proposal is gonna mainly be laser safety, and your knowing when your legal, and how to get legal if you need to. I'll probably do a "types of lasers" compentency , and basic things like scan speed, points in a animation, first surface mirrors, dichros etc I'll throw in a little basic musicology for the laser harp folks. The safety for a flat scan, a reflected dot, and a static beam WILL be part of the test, or I'm out from the getgo. So will be the II and III meter rules etc.

I'll call it the safety aware advanced laser hobbyist or something along those lines.

CDRH has a free book called, Laser Shows, Who is Responsible, and a lot o it will come from that,
'
BTW Did you know that a pointer is a "demonstration Laser Product" just like a laser show?


I takes two board meetings for ilda to approve something, and that can take up to a year. I'll need some backup people, and the problem with PL, which is also its beauty, is that you have 500 people that can never agree on anything.

So I'll try to ram this through, But to quote and then hack some Billy Joel, and this rapidly becoming this old conservative obstinate ass's favorite line (just got called that in another group"

"You can cry in your coffee , but dont come Bitchin to me" "

If you dont help out, don't come back to me later and crying and say some requirement is grossly unfair...

Steve Roberts

ok well lets be sure to include something about safety goggles/glasses also Flight paths and airplanes, also inviable radiation hazards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mixedgas

However, I think that the whole certification idea is so bad that it embarasses me to be associated with ILDA and that is why I am turned off and won't renew. That isn't the only reason I have considered not renewing but that is the last nail in the coffin. I'm only an individual member so it is no big loss to them.

I'll Call YOur Bluff:

Did you participate in ILDA activities or did you just set there and read the laserist 6 times a year? Did you send a proxy vote in when the board voted on issues? Did you even work on a varience, or ask another ILDA member if you could go out and work a show with them, even as a volunteer? Did you try to do a Sphegetti writeup in the laserist or on the web page? NOOOO? I rest my case.

---

What bluff are you calling and what is your case? That I won't renew? Did I ever claim all of those things that you said I didn't do? Actually, for the record, I did contact ILDA about errors in the ILDA file format and suggested corrections. I think it fell on deaf ears. Why would I work on a variance or go work shows? I am not interested in performing shows because I write software. And what shows are in my area? I did contact Tim Walsh about holding a mini meeting in the Austin area for the 4 laserists here. Does that not count? I also briefly told him about Spaghetti and he thought it might be something to put in the laserist if there was time/space. There has only been one Laserist magazine released since I have been a member. I monitored the email list for awhile and sometimes contributed until it turned into a bickering match about money, etc.

I rest my case that you don't know what you are talking about.

But regardless, what does any of that have to do with whether or not I think what was proposed is a bad idea? Nothing.

Your bluff has been called.

Ok.. both of you back the F up...

This issue has obviously hit a nerve with the community and is a bone of contention.

There is no reason for anyone anyone to take anything personally.. and we should also be careful when using specific people and situations as examples because there are people on the other ends of those examples..

lets focus on the ACTUAL issue and not be side tracked by bickering... this is why it take you people years to get shit done..

you dont have to like each other.. you don't have to agree.. you just have to be friken profesional about it, state your case as best you can, and put it to a vote..

bickering is a useless waste of time and energy..

Eh, I was just stating my case until mixed gas bag decided to make it personal against me (for what reason I have no idea - he seems to like to do that since this isn't the first time). I never let things slide, hence my response.

"The ability to let that which does not matter truly slide" - Fight Club

ANYWAY -

Steve (mixedgas) - and others who have chimed in with CONSTRUCTIVE criticism - personally I like where you're going with this, and appreciate your efforts! :)

Since many (most?) of us on this forum are "just" hobbiests at this point, and really don't have a background to really present good solid recommendations concerning safety, regulations, etc., perhaps it would be best if you (and the other educated / experienced professionals on this forum) continued to post your specific ideas for certification material, and then let us know how we can help to get the ideas pushed through the ILDA recognition process.

Like many others who have posted, I think certifications based on graduated levels of technical training and experience would serve the hobbiests and professionals the best, with separate certifications available for those who have achieved recognition for shows they have produced and/or performed.

show recognition is nothing more than bragging rights .. you don't need certified bragging rights..

thats called a portfolio...

[QUOTE=keeperx;76876]show recognition is nothing more than bragging rights .. you don't need certified bragging rights..

I beg to differ.

Ya know, going out to do a show is more like a military operation then you might expect, you have to have checklists, spare gear, provide cooling water and power, shelter your equipment, secure it from theft, vandalism, and chipmunks and mice, Haul out cabling and hoses and control wiring. Deal with the talent, the house sound guy, the house lighting guy, security types who won't let you into your own gig. People who shut off water and generators for no reason, Generators that show up with the wrong wiring. Fire marshals, cops, the FAA. Then you need to make a safe environment and deal with many things that crop up unexpectedly. Like not getting paid as promised. Your a plumber and master electrician besides a artist. You also don't get the venue for all night, and you have to be out of the way in a few hours or less when you leave, so the next act can get in.

I just helped out on a show that used a 30 foot tall inflatable screen. A mesh screen rated for 30+ knots was was speced in the contract, but they brought out something more or less for indoors. The screen vendor screwed the pooch, and the show layout had to be flipped around at 4 am in the morning to go from rear projected graphics to beams when the wind hit 40 knots and the screen kept folding over and trying to be a blimp. Several 20 foot scaffs needed tore down and moved by hand, with a few hundred pounds of gear on each scaff, plus moving the genny/water/wiring to a new location. Then we picked up all the seating for a couple of hundred people and moved it.

The event sponsors ran a movie on the same screen before the laser show, and lost all their audience because the screen would not stay up. So 28 people stayed for the laser show instead of a couple of hundred.

The water pressure was 90 PSI, enough to pop the overpressure drains on the lasers, and I had to drive 60 miles to ST Louis to get a proper plug for the genny and a pressure regulator on the morning of the show day (I was paid to be on site for emergencies as a roadie/techie) You can't get the right NEMA plugs at most hardware stores or home depot.

A lack of tef tape or a spare fuse or a spare connector can kill a show in the field.
You haul out a few hundred pounds of computer and projector, and a few thousand pounds of support gear, speaker clusters, and scaffolds and tarps. You have to have two or three of everything, in road cases.

That is why completed shows count, field operations is really different from doing a show in the same venue day after day after day. Logistics is a serious professional skill in this biz.

The completed shows in the field is not bragging rights, its a critical measure of your professional sucess.

Hi, I'm glad people are noticing the ILDA Accreditation program. Here is some background about the program, which may answer questions or concerns. We also have three webpages at ILDA's website which goes into more detail, plus you can download the current (draft) Accreditation Form to read it for yourself.

My comments:

A DRAFT, WITH OPEN INPUT

The Accreditation Form and the requirements are in draft format. So if there are one or two items you don't like, these may well change. I hope you don't dis the whole program just because there are a couple of requirements you don't like (or can't meet right away).

We are asking for input from ILDA Members and non-members. So the commenting process is open; anyone may make suggestions. (I do ask that for official comments/suggestions, call or email me directly, or email to the Laserist list. Comments elsewhere, including Photon Lexicon, may not make it into the "official" pile.)

OPEN PROCESS (NOT FOR ILDA MEMBERS ONLY)

Accreditation is not related to ILDA Membership. These are two very separate things. You can be an ILDA Member and apply, or not apply for ILDA Accreditation. You can be a non-ILDA member and apply for ILDA Accreditation.

Further, there are no ILDA-specific requirements. You do not have to have an ILDA Award, you do not have to attend an ILDA Conference, you do not have to be on an ILDA committee, and of course you do not have to be an ILDA Member.

WHAT ACCREDITATION IS, AND IS NOT

The ILDA Accreditation program is for companies and those doing laser show business. (Individuals who are sole proprietorships or incorporated can apply as well.) It is NOT a certification program for individuals such as to certify a doctor or lawyer or IT specialist. BTW, ILDA would like to do such a program in the future, but one step at a time.

Accreditation is not education. While it would be nice if ILDA (or others) gave classes in laser safety etc., this is a separate subject. ILDA relies on volunteer efforts; if volunteers want to work on this, then safety education offerings would have a higher priority. (And in fact, the Accreditation Form was delayed while I created LaserPointerSafety.com, which I think people will agree is an effort to improve safety information for end-users of laser pointers.)

Accreditation may not be automatic, or simple for every company. There are requirements. While the requirements are meant to be reasonable and fair, some companies simply may not have them all. It may take a year or two for a company to complete all of the requirements. This is in line with any other accreditation or certification program including getting a degree from school or passing a MSCE test. Not every company gets ISO 9000 certification the first time or without doing some work.

ACCREDITATION IS NOT ELITIST OR RESTRICTIVE

Accreditation is not elitist. ILDA is not ranking companies. It is pass/fail: accreditation merely states that a company has achieved reasonable baseline standards to demonstrate that a company has experience and knowledge in areas that ILDA-volunteer members felt were important to lasershow companies and the laser display industry.

If a company does not meet the requirements, does not want to participate, or does not agree with the requirements, that is OK. ILDA Accreditation is a bonus, not a barrier. If a company does not have ILDA Accreditation, this does not stop them in any way from doing laser shows, from saying they are professionals, from listing their experience, or from any other action they can do now.

AREAS OF OBJECTIONS

Looking at what people have written here and elsewhere, I have seen three main areas of objections.

One area consists of objections to the idea of ILDA *gasp* even thinking about setting up a program that helps identify companies reaching a certain achievement level. But such a program is not uncommon; there are lots of programs for individuals or companies where they can get credit for achievements. So while we may modify the accreditation program, it is unlikely we will drop it.

Another area of objections is to specific requirements. For example, a number of people are unhappy with the requirement to have won at least one award. I have already stated that the ILDA Accredited program is in draft, that we are accepting comments from anyone including non-members, and that not all companies may immediately meet the requirements.

A third area of objections is to the documentation requirements. This is tricky. We do ask that if you did a show, or took a course, or went to a conference, that there be some proof. We don't want to make this onerous, especially for things in the past. But on the other hand, it would be meaningless if ILDA did not require some proof that the requirement was met. We will continue to work on these areas.

ILDA IS RUN BY VOLUNTEER LASERISTS

I have a final thought for people who are upset with ILDA's proposal. This includes those who want to drop ILDA Membership. Keep in mind that ILDA is a volunteer-run membership organization. ILDA -- naturally -- reflects the goals of its most active and vocal members.

One or a few impassioned people can make a big change in ILDA policies or programs. So if you don't like the accreditation program, don't just write a couple of forum posts and expect ILDA to do things exactly how you want them (though we may!). It is much more effective to work within ILDA's committee and Board structure to try to accomplish this.

Of course, the Board and members may not agree to everything you want or propose (it has happened to me :) ). But if you really care about lasers and improving the laser industry, it is really surprising what one or a few people within ILDA can do.

HOW TO COMMENT

As I said above, if you want to make an official comment/suggestion to ILDA, write or call me directly (mail@laserist.org) or post to the Laserist List. We are listening and are already planning some changes.

Thanks again for your interest,

-- Patrick Murphy
ILDA Executive Director

PS: Instructions for joining the Laserist List are at http://www.laserist.org/mailinglists.htm . More details about the accreditation and certification programs (an overview) are at
http://www.laserist.org/certification-overview.htm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stuka

Like many others who have posted, I think certifications based on graduated levels of technical training and experience would serve the hobbiests and professionals the best, with separate certifications available for those who have achieved recognition for shows they have produced and/or performed.

---

Just to clarify, the ILDA Accreditation proposal covers companies and individuals who are in the business of doing lasershows. It is not a certification program to identify individuals' abilities and experience in lasers.

We would like to do an individual certification program and have it on our roadmap. We need people to develop the criteria for this. See our accreditation and certification pages at the website for more details about what might be required in such a program.

At this time, the most work and frankly interest has been in having ILDA identify and give credit for corporate experience and achievements. So we're working on this first.

Thanks for your nice comments and good suggestion!

-- Patrick

Hi Steve..
What's wrong with the current proposed, already developed ILDA certification system (not yet implemented I understand) ??
I saw this "operator" and "pro" level certification idea when I was visiting Greg at LSDI. The entry level operator cert' looks a very good start for Pro and Amateur alike. The more advanced one may suit the Pro better in the long run.
Right now it appears there is nothing so...who in fact can claim to be a certified Laser SHOW operator... pro or amateur ??

I personally thought it hit the nail on the head nicely as a good entry and upgrade option.
Whats more it appears all the hard work has already been done and could be rolled out very quickly.

Personally I don't see much of a need for an "amateur" status, you are either a laser operator or you are not.
If doing shows in your basement most people are not likely to bother anyway but there needs to be an entry level path for those starting out on shows full or part time. (even the big boys started out one day in the past)

(for all )
Can we please keep this thread clear of insults, threats of technical difficulties, personal matters and ego's..
Yes we all know some of you are "Pro's" and some are not but we are all interested at some level in lasers..( or we wouldn't be here in PL)

let that be the focus.:D

Let's spare a thought for Patrick @ ILDA right now.... who'd want to be the boss of ILDA at this "fun" time.

Cheers:):):)

Ray
NZ

Ray --

Hi, good to hear from you! I am unaware of Greg's proposal but it sounds like a good start. ILDA is not perfect (ha ha) so there may have been proposals made which didn't get anywhere. The Accreditation proposal was actually made 3-4 years ago but only recently did it get reactivated in its present form.

As indicated in my reply to Stuka, we do want to do an individual certification. Maybe after the current situation shakes out, ILDA corporately can focus attention on that. In the meantime, if Greg, you, O. Steven, or anyone else wants to develop an individual certification proposal (or resubmit...) this would be great. Anyone for an ILDA committee?

-- Patrick

What happens if a company gets the cert and then the main guys quit? Then you have a certified company with people who don't know what they are doing.

I guess the risk of losing certified people exists in many industries.
I know it does in mine (electronics).. it takes between three and five years to certify a technician and register them in this country.. hens teeth are more plentiful at certain times.

The basic entry level cert' isn't all that complex if implemented as I saw it, it would not take long to get another person certified at the basic level.

I guess also I was thinking more of a "voluntary" certification rather than a must do. I was not thinking of a compulsory concept at all.

It just shows a commitment to the industry and a healthy attitude toward laser show safety.
It may also help getting business as the client can be shown that operator X has got at the least a basic certification from our International body.

Cheers :):)
Ray

microsoft has the answer..

to be a MS partner you must have anough certified employees to keep your cert. its a yearly certification review (you just file your paperwork for review)

if you loose your certified employee your cert is suspended until you replace that employee

Ok, I'm the middle of putting together a quote for a client right now and dont have much time to type.

In the US,there are lots of what the Japanese call "Radio Boy", they play with lasers to learn something and have a little fun. It sometimes leads to a technical career. As technology has diverged from simple hardware made of discrete parts to mainly software running on mega chips, radio boy has diverged from building and knowing his hardware inside out, to a buyer of a few pieces of hardware which he wires together, but knows little about. He now adds software.

Modern Radio Boy then has a toy, but he does know much other then to take a few pieces of art freely available to him and hit play. Small software is now millions of lines of code, and radio boy cannot edit even the most basic of programs. He becomes Radio User. Radio User often is not artistic, for he uses the artwork of others, and often does not use it properly.

Modern Radio Boy often obtains fairly dangerous items, follows a cookbook approach, makes it, but may not know the hazards. He often only has a poorly written guide written by other radio boy (ie 2600 magazine, Make magazine etc,) poorly edited by another radio boy. One Radio Boy can often inject a comment about something that has no basis in reality, but now because modern radio boy is so detached from the physics, other radio boy do not catch the error and it is taken as gospel. Ie Radio Blog. Because of search engines and the net, one Radio Boy can make false gospel that becomes perpetuated everywhere. He becomes Radio User. Ie Radio Blog , content makers, cannot resist copying and reusing unverified radio blog facts under new blog site names. Radio Boy cannot contain his enthusiasm for what he has done that makes him different, and must share his cool toy with everyone within miles, they can become radio tortured souls.

Modern Radio Boy is no longer held accountable, unlike 60's, 70's 80's Radio Boy, who often had to earn and was expected to earn JARL or FCC license to continue to higher power. Providers would not sell high power to anyone without the license. They certainly slept better because of that.

For example, a post here six months or a year ago by a Radio Boy that everything 87 mW and under is safe, not matter what , shown with a pic of his beams hitting many party people at his apartment with 300 mW point blank audience scanning.

So now we have another creature, Honorable ShoGun, upps, I mean Showop.

Honorable ShowOp is a class way above Radio Boy. He often gets paid for his work, has to know the physics and the rules, and often has a variance. He is a professional, or working to get there. He can be hired by warlord class commercial providers of laser shows.

Showop has been in the field and done logistics, can do his own programming, often is artistic on his own, and knows how to deal with safety, professionalism, and how to entertain. He often can fix his systems, unlike Radio Boy. He is what Radio Boy was supposed to become. Showop often has apprenticed , either paid or unpaid, with professionals. Showop is not afraid to ask for help from Other Showops. He can be trusted with unlimited photonic power, and believes that laser show is a form of theatre, both a science and a art. Showop thinks before he moves, and knows there is a level beyond: "Look at my Cool Laser Dudez" Showop understands why there are CDRH rules, and understands safety and professionalism is good for industry.

So in short, because of low cost Asian DPSS, and youtube howtos, the art has been lost. At least in the US, we have many Radio Users with toyz. They can become a danger fast, as to make money to further their addiction, they will sell things like 300 mW pointers , to a class of citizen known as total idiots, who aim them at airplanes. So if we provide a Goal for Radio User to be able to transition back to Radio Boy of old, and then a another chance
to transistion to Showop, we can solve a few problems.

In the US at least, we have many , many , many Radio user, and they cheapen the industry. We can groom them for better things,especially the ones that have several hundred milliwatts to several watts and are gonna eventually go out and do a "show" or two, without the permits.

In Short, we can make Radio User and Radio Boy better educated. For tests are not always ment to be a test, they are often ment to teach. WE GIVE THEM A GOAL AND EXPECT THEM TO MEET A STANDARD.

We give them a way to learn the laws, rules, and set artistic goals.

I do not want everybody who buys a 300 mW pointer to be a showop when they really want to go out and use the pointer for locating stars at late night star parties, I want a intermediate level that is cheap, effective and teaches about safety. For not all radio boy are actually interested in shows, some want to burn things.

What good is a ILDA standard approved showop, if all the past experience he has is burning things? I don't want a "intellectually cheap" showop license. I'd like a "familiar enough with laser safety" level first, because that has more uses then laser shows. I would strongly urge ILDA to create a 500 mW and down catagory, stressing safety.


For when the DO-DO hits the fan, a industry that has taught safety and has accrediation, will be more likely to be allowed to have things that ordinary people are not.


More to follow. When I have time.

Please remember the US is probably more saturated with higher power handheld DPSS then anywhere else in the world.

Watch this video as a LSO and cringe : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP9FapL65tU

Then go find the one with the guy playing with the KTP532 at 3o+ watts shooting beams around with his toddlers in the room.

Then go find the article in "Make Magazine" about building a 100-300 mW laser harp with no mention of laser safety, with pictures of the beams going up to bounce mirrors then over a audience. No mention that public performance may/will need government permission. And no mention of protection for others on stage.

Steve

I think RadioBoy and LaserBoy should go on a date.

STEVE-

i have the UTMOST respect for you, but you kinda lost me in your last post.

I am a "Professional" laserist. I own a "Laser Light Show Company." complete with variances, insurance, income, taxes being paid, product reports, FAA papers, clients, contracts, proposals and A LOT of shows under my belt.

i WILL NEVER be an "LSDI." i will NEVER be a "Lightwave International." I will NEVER be a "Day Star Lasers." i have 3 Watt yag. and building a RGB system. does that make me less professioanl than a company with HUGE ion systems?

am i less professional becasue i never had a generator break on me in the middle of a football field? i have brobably over 300 shows under my belt. if not more. i have had ZERO....repeat, ZERO complaints. ZERO accidents. ZERO "mishaps." And i have NEVER had a problem in the field that i couldnt handle on my own. and in the end, finishing the show i was conracted to do.

i was able to do all of that WITHOUT accreditation. I honestly have a HUGE amount of respect and look up to some of you older guys in the business. i dont mean old as in age, i mean old as in equipment and the "good ole days." of ions. but i am getting VERY VERY frustrated with the fact that some of the "old timers" discredit and down play the use and ease of some of us newer guys with the SS technology.

my shows are jsut as good if not better than some of the other shows i see some of the "old timers." producing. of course i cant do an olympic show for 90,000 people. but the smaller scale shows i do i am pretty damn proud of.

can "Joe Smith" of "XYZ" company do it better becasue he is accredited? can "joe smith" do it better because he was able to afford to gon an ILDA cruise and recieve a technical award?

i provide 1000% safe shows. in fact i am OVERLY safe when doing my shows. i may not know how to calculate the theta angle of a hypotenue laser beam being scanned at 9 degrees at a speed of 20kpps. bla bla bla...BUT....do i need to??? NO! im not crowd scanning. im not putting anyone in danger.

i am ALL FOR safety. i am ALL FOR ILDA. i am ALL for a place for potential clients to see who is available to do what. but i am NOT for a program like this accreditation who is going to make the "little guys" like me have to fight EVEN HARDER for potential clients. all becasue i dont have a big "A" next to my name for being accreditted.

i became part of the ILDA to learn, to become a professional member in the field that i am pursuing and to become a more responsible laserist.

what, in essence, this accreditation is saying is that i am not as responsible as the big boys becasue i can not afford to do alot of the same that they do.

comparing the laserist community to other professions like MCSE and such is not accurate. for every 100,000 computer engineers there is probably ONE laserist!!! for every 1,000,000 plumbers....there is probably ONE laserist. professions like those are MUCH MORE prevolent in our society than a laser light show. in the whole world there are MAYBE 100-200 MAX. laser companies.

i enjoy my smaller scale laser light show company. i will never bill out a million dollar show. i will never own a 33 watt ion laser system. that doesnt make me less of an importance than a company that DOES do those things.

i think the accreditation program should be EXTREMELY re-analyzed. i have upwards of a couple hundred emails now going back and forth from the laserists list. i have yet to see ONE email as a PROPONENT of the program. (as it is currently). i would hope that ILDA would listen to its members. becasue the way it seems to me is that there are A LOT of not-so-happy members. and remeber, im just the little guy. :rolleyes: i really have no say.

pat...youre a great guy! ILDA is a GREAT institution and has done GREAT things for the laser community. but i HONESTLY think that this program can be a detriment to the "little guy!"

-Marc
-CT. Lasers

Personally I'm not a member of ILDA so maybe I don't technically have a right to pass comment here.

But my view is I think there needs to be either a free or very low cost $20-30 internet based course and exam so that everyone, professional and hobbyist alike, has access.

I think it needs to be comprehensive, ie. include all the knowledge necessary to enable safe audience scanning and assembly of shows for that purpose - those in Europe are most likely going to scan and for those in the US, such a course would probably help them get Federal approval.

I also think for ILDA's sake, the course name needs to be worded carefully so if there is a bad event and it turns out the operator took the course, it doesn't reflect badly on ILDA (unlike the way it might if it was an ILDA member who was responsible). Whereas I do think the course needs to be all inclusive and not elitist or exclusive, but open to all, I think there still needs to be a distinction between ILDA members and non ILDA members, not in course qualifcation, access or content but through the course name given that its open to a much wider audience who may or may not be suitable for Full ILDA membership.

I would suggest maybe the course should be called something like "Laser Safety and Audience Scanning Awareness Course" and then in small print ILDA accredited or approved. I don't think ILDA should call it something like "ILDA Laser Safety Course" because then if someone who'd taken it made a mistake, ILDA would immediately come under the spotlight.

Very well said, Marc.

Accreditation is not something that should be bestowed on a person.

Reputation is something that should be earned.

Since laserists are such a small group, we have a tendency to get together and get to know each other. The ways we each represent each other to the general public (and to our other laser friends) is very important.

If you're going to have a centralized authority giving out internationally recognized accreditation, it better be VERY HONEST AND ACCURATE.

Which, since it will be done by a bunch of humans with egos, IT WILL NEVER BE!

James. :)

I dont care if ASME or SAE runs it or ILDA runs it, but we need a honest basic laser safety course in the US. Either that or we start documenting the import of DPSS.

I dont see the ILDA list, but I do have a back door into how the regulatory types think.


Marc, you have a variance, you care about safety, and I'll bet you go out with double gear too. The very fact that you have shows under your belt, puts you in the pro class already. You got paid to do those shows, your a pro. The fact that you have several hundred shows under your belt takes you out of the hobby level for sure. I'll bet you have a preshow checklist and I'll you have a system set up so you make sure you have the gear with you before you leave.

And you yourself said CDRH is starting to grumble. CDRH is changing senior leadership, and a leaner, meaner Obama admin may say fish or cut bait , and cutting bait is loosing your job for failure to do anything. A easy target would be us,after one more moscow.
So If we dont do something like this, how do you get the word out to prevent more moscows?

I don't want to do this where passing the test is a secret handshake secret. God knows we have enough secret handshake type licenses around in other fields. I'm taking a major hit right now because I do PhD level work without a PhD. I can't get hired to do what I love because I can't publish in a peer moderated journal or apply for grants, And getting to that level is a 5 year long 60 hour per week secret handshake.

I will make this so it is less difficult then a drivers test for a 16 year old, but it will still have meaning.

Look, I use the no-code ham radio model. You pass a multiple guess test, you win. You get a little more time under your belt, you move up, Two levels, thats it. The next thing up after my two is the ILDA super pro thing. I want basic laser safety, professional level showop, and then the Ilda Professional.

But I don't want to lower the standard for the second level. If you took your time to write out a variance I think your already thinking at the second level. I looked at the ILDA worksheet and I don't think I could pass it. I'd have a hard time documenting all those shows done way back when. I cant tell you what month I helped LMR do a all night rave in 1990 something.

As far as I'm concerned, and I've said this at past ILDA meetings when I was still a member (I can't afford it right now, medical bills) I draw the line at IIIb and 5 mW for pointers, I dont think you need a more then 5 mW pointer unless your doing survey or astronomy work.

My second tier is simple, have the basic hobby laser safety level.Obtain a variance or work for/with a varianced laserist and the do your own 5 professional shows. Pass a simple written test, plus one math involved 4 question test where you look up the exposure on the Standard pulse vs wavelength chart and calculate a spot on the wall exposure, a flat scan exposure, and static beam into the eye exposure. One simple divergence question in milliradians (if you cant do 1 mil expands the beam to 1 yard in 1000 feet, you shouldn't be pumping your own gas or doing your own checkbook.) I will give you the derived equations (plug and chug gradeschool math) on the test form. No sines/cosines/haversines. Your going have a study guide that is a good safety handbook to begin with. And ya know what, the CDRH and ANSI already wrote most of it. I'd like you to have a 2 to 4 hour course with a instructor, just to make the lawyers squirm. But thats going to be hard to do. You take the test with a volunteer designated examiner, ie any ILDA member near you gets a packet in the mail, hands it to you, you take the test, seal the packet back up and he/she signs it that you did the work, , and you mail it. Just like the ham radio stuff. And that system works just fine, ask the FCC and the ARRL.

I'm using ILDA as a framework, because it already exists and the guys/gals on the safety comm are top notch.

Screw it, I'm starting to wonder if its not worth the time to persue. But when the good ole boys at Homeland see a incident and say no more lasers, Aussie Chief Cop style........ There wont be time to implement a framework and we'll all lose.

Steve

The sad thing about laser display is that there is no clear distinction between the "Academy" and the "Professionals". They are one and the same.

Putting that kind of power into the hands of the very few money makers at the top is a bad idea.

If there was a purely academic pursuit of the art and science of laser display then THAT would be the obvious place to keep and protect the laws, ideals and standards of the art form.

Unfortunately there is no publicly funded, university supported, non-profit exploration of laser display for the good of the general public.

We all fit into one of only two categories: professionals or amateurs.

Because I don't make any money and I don't do any shows, I am an amateur. As far as I know, I always will be.

James. :)

Steve.
You make some good points..
I still have issues with this "amateur" level status you seem keen to use.

The world is not binary (you could be forgiven for thinking it is today) you are not necessarily one of two things.. that is ... "doing shows" as such you are deemed a pro or "not doing shows" as such you are deemed an amateur.
If you look at our PL members we see a constant stream of members undertaking their first little shows or maybe their first paying show.

I fully support a basic laser safety awareness cert' in some form. (Greg at LSDI has already developed it... so why re invent the wheel ??)
My point is it gives EVERYONE whether pro or amateur an equal starting point. It also gives Pros something they can put their hired help through and at least be comfortable that the staff has some idea of whats happening with the setup.

I can't see any point at all in a "Pro" version and an "amateur" version.
After all same lasers, same displays, same safety issues... just one gets paid.
It would be desirable in my opinion to offer a higher qualification for those seeking such a qual' to reflect the higher degrees required for large Pro shows and the complexities of same.

Laser Institute of America (LIA) who run the current formal certification online courses and classes for lasers (not show lasers unfortunately) is this not what they offer their members ??.

My time here on PL over the last year or so has shown that many of our members, Pro or Amateur are far from Amateur in their thinking.
When I started to think of doing shows (which I have now done numerous of) and safety I flew to the USA and had training with Greg at LSDI in Florida.... and yes right now I am an "amateur" by virtue of the fact I do not do shows fulltime but I do feel confident thanks to the help I have had here on PL and from Greg, Bill, Adam and Patrick.

We really need to lose this "I am a Pro" egotistical way of thinking, it is understandable given some peoples long history but seems to me to be clouding the ay things are going.

Times are changing..... adapt or be assimilated. (Borg talk);)

Cheers

Ray:D:D

This is a bad idea from every angle. If this new committee would spend its time enforcing the original code of ethics which I helped draft in 1986, all companies would be professional. Another elitist move by pompous individuals in positions of power creating a greater web of un necessary bureaucrary.

EVERY individual in good standing in ILDA is a professional, if they are not in good standing there is a process to eliminate them. This new accreditation policy is nothing but a popularity contest and a my unit is bigger and shinier or whatever. ILDA has already accomplished what is necessary, standardization of control interface and control hierarchy. Another line item that could be included in the point system could be a secret handshake or a code word like the masons.

ILDA has gotten to fancy for its own pants. Certified projector WTF, Certified Controller WTF what if it dosnt have a big red P on it you cant get more points? What a load. This new program smells of exclusionist not inclusionist. THE ELDERS STILL have alot to learn, it will be an unknown little mininion which could be the bright star to introduce some revolunary new product or technique that you never saw comming. History repeats itself.

Safety-guidelines are in place by the federal government. For ILDA to certify an individual and if an incident were to occur, you will all be looking for a new fraternity. Training courses are available http://www.laser-professionals.com/. If you want real quality you could ammend the membership requirements so that each individual and company be required to be a CLSO http://www.lasersafety.org/

All I can think of when i read the plans for this new accreditition policy is a 70 year old grey hared woman with a big ass wearing a visor riding around the neighborhoods on her pink three wheeled tricycle with a basket and one of those big orange flags measuring everyones grass and threatening that you will not be allowed to the next bridge game.

ALL INDIVIDUAL ILDA MEMBERS SHOULD OPPOSE THIS NEW "POLICY" unless the committee can show documented potential clients who have requested a list of only the best of ILDA has to offer. It dosnt happen, clients want quality, safety and CHEAP. Not a mantle full of plastic awards.

What about the fact that some people are just naturally intelligent and talented and take to this stuff instantly?

Tens of years of experience doesn't add up to anything if lessons are never learned.

On the other hand ONE laser show might be all that it takes to make an enthusiast an expert.

James. :)

Tens of years of experience doesn't add up to anything if lessons are never learned.

On the other hand ONE laser show might be all that it takes to make an enthusiast an expert.

James. :)

Very well said James... That certainly fits with what I have seen so far.
Ray
NZ

From my point of view , the issue is another thing entirely. Due to lack of enforcement of regulation, people can get their hands on things that are very dangerous. Ok, lets not call it pro or amateur, lets call it IIIB and UP.. LIA and the others don't want to address thus issue, and go try to get a copy of a LIA standard or information with out paying for it, or joining LIA. I'd bet, given the chance, since showlaser would be such a small part of the enviroment, LIA wouldn't want anything to do with it. LIA is not ran by laser show people, its ran by industrial and scientific types. Go find out what LIA wants a year for a individual membership etc.

I'm fighting a loosing battle here, so I'm gonna shut up. I'll still submit the proposal anyways.

You know, there is a difference between a propane torch and and a laser, unless it sets a house on fire, a propane torch has a limited damage area, and even then you have time to get out if it sets a house on fire. You can get a propane torch at Walmart. But a laser can reach out and touch you, and you only have two eyes. By the logic you guys are using, you should be able to buy a CLASS IV 6 watt laser at K-Mart. Yet you'd all be terrified if you were on the road with teenagers who didn't take a drivers ed course and insurance.
Now everybodies gonna chime in that there is no evidence of laser injuries in club goers etc. Well, guess what, we probably don't know simply because doctors don't have a checkbox on the mortality and morbidity form for it.

With a Lassie Faire regulatory environment,both here and in China, right now you are pretty much depending on fear of lawyers to keep you safe. You now have a large manufacturer of cheap gear who's power level is going up and up and up, and its a matter of time before it gets in the wrong hands.

from a ad on google that pops up whenever you google laser:

LASER LIGHTS 1/2 Off
Lowest prices in the country!
LASER LIGHTS On Sale Here Today.

You know, the rules require you reproduce the warning logotype for your products in catalogs, seen that much lately? Oh, nobody is enforcing it,

All those YAG laser rangefinders that sell for 150 bucks, by law they were supposed to be crushed. The agreement between the Military and CDRH says military "exempt" devices are never supposed to make it to civillian hands. Oh, Nobdoy is enforcing it.

I walked into a music store a few months ago and took 50 mW right in my eyes when a automated "toy" started up. I went back with a power meter and measured it. To the music store guys, it was just a light. If that were a three watt used Melles in a Mobo fixture, they would not have known the difference.

I'm trying to put a framework in place for when things tighten up, those of you who are serious and want to continue with lasers can get them.

The genie is out of the bag folks on proliferation of laser technology, and you ain't seen nothing yet. Its just a matter of time for fiber lasers to go from IR to visible, and the difficulty with obtaining stable high power green without TE COOLING will go away AND the cost will go down much further then it already has. Direct Fiber Upconversion Lasers will put 10 watts of green in a matchbox powered by a few D batteries. You want that at walmart?

Since a 1 kilowatt fiber yag is now not much bigger then the size of a laser printer, and aircooled and runs silently off 110, Do you not worry about what happens if those get out of control?

You know, I had to spend two or three days training each student I worked with on laser safety and procedures, for far less power then most of you have in a hacked red pointer, yet your willing to walk into SELEM and trust that some one you've never met is not gonna blast you. If I truely followed the rules, anything over three A was interlocked to the lab door. Are you willing to extend that trust to the public as a whole?

Oh, and you know what the number one complaint is from folks who hire laser effects? Quality control in the laserist themselves.
Would'nt it be nice when it you have to do some marketing to say "I'm certified" and "I'm safe" and I have the minimum of decent gear to actually do something , or do you guys hire contractors who have no state license, and no insurance to reroof your house?


So what I gather from you folks here, is that any hobbyist who has a RGB should be able to dash out and do a paid SHOW without a varience, because its cool? One show can make you a professional, ha ha aha aha ha ! I love it.

And James, by your logic in that post, by writing the code for one sucessful model airplane guidance system, that would make a person qualified to design nuclear tipped cruise missiles?

The guys at laserfreak, where under the German rules they need to have a day long safety certification course, have made it possible to get that course for about 120 euros, and have a mini LEM at the same time. Of course their country is the size of 5 of our states, making it easier. No secret handshake, and no difference between pro and hobbyist. It brought the costs down by acting as a group. You come out certified if you pass the test.

This will be my last post on the subject, but I will submit a proposal.

Steve

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mixedgas

[snip lots of good stuff]
One simple divergence question in milliradians (if you cant do 1 mil expands the beam to 1 yard in 1000 feet, you shouldn't be pumping your own gas or doing your own checkbook.)

---

I agree wholeheartedly with what you're saying here, but can you make it so we can use SI units in the test please? Yards and feet make my head hurt.

I really don't see lasers as being any different in terms of safety from driving a car. If you screw up driving a car, you can ruin or end the lives of dozens of people. That's like running a little DPSS of maybe a few hundred milliwatts. If you want to run a big CVL or something like that, well, that's more like driving a bus, and the test for that is proportionally harder. If you want to drive a truck loaded with nuclear waste, well, at that point we start thinking seriously about background checks, operator reliability standards, accreditations, the whole works, proportionally more involved.

The important word here is "proportionally"- if people want to do more dangerous things, we need to make it so that we have checked their safety practice to a much more rigorous standard. The fact is that what I'd call "medium" power lasers are much cheaper and easier to get hold of, and the old system just doesn't work any more.

-J.,
child of the 70s

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mixedgas

From my point of view , Due to lack of enforcement of regulation, people can get their hands on things that are very dangerous. Ok, lets not call it pro or amateur, lets call it IIIB and UP..

---

So what you're now saying is that amateurs shouldn't be allowed to buy anything over Class II ie 5mw. Isn't that even more elitist than the original proposal?
We should all give up our lasers because we aren't within the ILDA definition of a professional?

Is this ILDA now calling for a total ban on the sale of all lasers over 5mw except to ILDA professionals, because thats what it now sounds like.

...and if something does go wrong it then lays the blame squarely at ILDA's door as it was clearly an ILDA professional who was to blame as no-one else could get hold of lasers of more than 5mw.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mixedgas

By the logic you guys are using, you should be able to buy a CLASS IV 6 watt laser at K-Mart.

---

Wouldn't it be more sensible to restrict sales to professional dealers? I doubt you average hoodie or gang banger would seek out a laser specialist and I doubt they'd pay dealer prices. They're far more likely to buy dodgy deals from ebay for a couple of hundred dollars or less.

Also, where's the role of government agencies in this. The most potentially dangerous lasers sold are high powered pointers, medical, ex-military and pulsed lasers sold on ebay. Yet where is the government in stopping / restricting those sales? Pointers and YAGs that can be fired as pencil beams from the back of a van are far more likely to be used by miscreants than projectors which project pretty patterns.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mixedgas

Now everybodies gonna chime in that there is no evidence of laser injuries in club goers etc. Well, guess what, we probably don't know simply because doctors don't have a checkbox on the mortality and morbidity form for it.

---

Well I'll chime in on that one. I'm not saying it means everyones doing safe shows but equally you can't hold the lack of proof of damage as evidence its being done silently. Many opticians in the UK now offer retinal photography as a part of a standard eye examination (to check for macular degerneration and other changes). Don't you think that with all the scanning going on in Europe, and the many thousands of people having these checks daily, opticians would be picking up and reporting retinal burns? I don't know what eye checks take place in the US but in the UK retinal photography is now quite common place as a part of the standard eye examination although some opticians do make it an extra for a nominal charge (£20).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mixedgas

With a Lassie Faire regulatory environment,both here and in China, right now you are pretty much depending on fear of lawyers to keep you safe. You now have a large manufacturer of cheap gear who's power level is going up and up and up, and its a matter of time before it gets in the wrong hands.

from a ad on google that pops up whenever you google laser:

LASER LIGHTS 1/2 Off
Lowest prices in the country!
LASER LIGHTS On Sale Here Today.

You know, the rules require you reproduce the warning logotype for your products in catalogs, seen that much lately? Oh, nobody is enforcing it,

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Again where is the government in all of this? Most of this could be enforced through ebay and customs simply by checking that all imported lasers met the relevant CE or US safety requirements. Yet it seems anyone is free to sell or buy and import lasers that don't meet relevant safety standards and that not only makes those lasers potentially unsafe, but it also makes them cheap because its cheaper not to have to fit quality scanners, key switches, IR filters etc.

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Originally Posted by mixedgas

All those YAG laser rangefinders that sell for 150 bucks, by law they were supposed to be crushed. The agreement between the Military and CDRH says military "exempt" devices are never supposed to make it to civillian hands. Oh, Nobdoy is enforcing it.

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You said it yourself. Nobody is engforcing it. Restricting everybody for fear they might buy one of the illegal lasers is like banning everyone from dirivng cars becuase they might buy a cut and shut (2 cars welded together in case is a UK excluisve term). The answer here is for the government to ensure these lasers don't reach the market through proper military disposal procedures and to prosecute and sieze those that sell them / that do.

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Originally Posted by mixedgas

I walked into a music store a few months ago and took 50 mW right in my eyes when a automated "toy" started up. I went back with a power meter and measured it. To the music store guys, it was just a light. If that were a three watt used Melles in a Mobo fixture, they would not have known the difference.

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Again thats a customs failure not an operator or consumer failure. Doesn't the US have checks on unsafe toys?

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Originally Posted by mixedgas

I'm trying to put a framework in place for when things tighten up, those of you who are serious and want to continue with lasers can get them.

The genie is out of the bag folks on proliferation of laser technology, and you ain't seen nothing yet. Its just a matter of time for fiber lasers to go from IR to visible, and the difficulty with obtaining stable high power green without TE COOLING will go away AND the cost will go down much further then it already has. Direct Fiber Upconversion Lasers will put 10 watts of green in a matchbox powered by a few D batteries. You want that at walmart?

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As I said above, restrict them to specialist dealers and I doubt you'll have much problems. On pulsed lasers I doubt anyone would really argue a safety certificate shouldn't be a requirement here provided the course was free or cheap and thus not made elitist by price.

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Originally Posted by mixedgas

Would'nt it be nice when it you have to do some marketing to say "I'm certified" and "I'm safe" and I have the minimum of decent gear to actually do something , or do you guys hire contractors who have no state license, and no insurance to reroof your house?

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No argument here other than my original comments, it shouldn't be elitist to professionals but safety certification shoudl be cheap or free and available to all.

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Originally Posted by mixedgas

So what I gather from you folks here, is that any hobbyist who has a RGB should be able to dash out and do a paid SHOW without a varience, because its cool? One show can make you a professional, ha ha aha aha ha ! I love it.

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I don't think anyone said anything about "without a variance" and whilst one show perhaps doesn't make you a professional, I think James' point was there are people with far more safety experience on here and who are far more capable of putting ona safe show than some of the so called experienced professionals out there.

I recently went on a clubbing forum where a DJ said:

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no ur been spot on there , not sure what the laws exactly is but thers all kinds of class of lasers ( uk states they have to be class 2 ) , wen we installed lazers at our nite the local council said anything over 200mw had to be at least 3 ft above the head hight, average 6ft so , 9 ft up and the beams were not aloud to drop below that level ...... wen im in greece we point 600mw plus str8 on to the crowd lol .

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This guy is a paid professional (not a home disco DJ but a full blown club DJ / VJ) but he didn't even seem to know what power level Class II was, what the law was, and thought there was no danger from simply shining 600mw lasers into the audience in Greece. Is this really the kind of professional you want to certify in ILDA's name as an "ILDA Professional"? It certainly seems to throw ILDAs apparent theory that experienced professionals do safe shows out of the window. Imagine someone like this without knowledge who then quite possibly goes out and does what he's always been doing because he has X years experience and despite the theory he's learn't with ILDA does it because its always been safe? (I'm not saying this particular guy would do that but there are other professionals who possibly would).

Here's a photo from a club I recently went to. The laser belonged to one of the visiting DJ's who's an internationally famous name and does major club venues ranging from upper hundred to many thousands of people many nights a week. Is this one of your experienced professionals who's going to do a safe show:

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/1...losehitru9.jpg


Thats a Chinese laser (pink cased) of I estimate between 30-100mw on a speaker, straight into the eyes on the nearest dancers from 3-4 feet. It was at one point putting out pencil beams (I have it on video) and I took a hit from around 40-50 feet and was left with a sore eye (although a retinal photo a few weeks later at my contact lens check showed no lasting damage). I asked the optican specifically to check. I'm not saying it was unsafe only that it seems potentially unsafe to me.

Short clip from the back, same laser outputing pencil beams (not saying it was dangerous just that I'd view this as potentially dangerous - imagine a pencil beam hit from same distance as in the still above, the people at the front are there just harder to see in the dark here:

http://vimeo.com/2770513

The point I'm trying to make here is Steve is the same as Jame's. Being an experienced professional, even a household name with thousands of shows, doesn't make you safe. So being elitist about who can and cannot qualify on ILDA's course isn't going to save ILDA from bad press or protect the public. All it is going to do is get ILDA the blame when something goes wrong and the person happend to be an ILDA "Professional". Far better to have a general course open to all thats in small print ILDA approved or accredited but not restricted to so called ILDA professionals otherwise the spotlight falls on ILDA when soemthign does go wrong.

BTW non of this is a personal attack on you. Just observations of what I consider to be flaws in the reasoning behind some of the current proposals.

US customs is so undermanned and so under staffed and so busy looking for drugs/ WMDs/bad foot that stuff slips in like crazy.

CDRH has about 6 electro-optics field inspectors and depends on customs to catch the imports.

Its well known in the US that if you want to import a laser, you have the shipper label it power supply, sample, or computer gear.

Our law is strange and outdated. If I sell you a laser projector, I technically have to see a variance before I can hand you the gear. If I sell you just the laser, all I need to do is keep a record of whom I sold it to. But only for the first sale from the manufacturer. Iie you sell it and ship it to the distributer, there is no record after that. With the exception of a few states, there are no local permits required, and still no restriction on sale. In texas and arizona, you need a state license to fire up anything other then class I, Class II or IIIA, but its basically just pay a fee, no test.

If you just want to buy a laser, there is no such restriction, provided the manufacturer has done the paper work to get the design approved. The exceptions are medical devices and imports.

The rules simply are not enforced because there are no one to enforce them. So you get a knee jerk reaction, wait till something happens, then clamp down on the known users in a effort to get the illegal ones.

So what will happen is that something like homeland security may just step in and react.

In OZ, all it took was the Senior Constable stepping in after a incident and declaring all pointers over a few mW as weapons, treating them the same as handguns. Since his ruling was vague and poorly worded, many scientists and laser show folks were scrambling to get firearms licenses for their lasers. So that put it in the hands of local police, whom we all know are wonderfully proficient in engineering.

I'm worried , that could easily occur here, post patriot act.

One thing our government understands is permits and licenses, and they are tending to start to recognize certification of users instead of licensing, ie self enforcement, by many other industries. So if you have some training,have past a test, and thus have shown a willingness to comply, it makes it harder to strip you of your rights to do something.

If we have a voluntary permitting system in place, it makes it much easier to survive a crackdown.

As Heroic said, our 1970s regulatory system is not structured to handle the rapid availability of products with a few hundreds of mWs. Its designed for henes, ie inherently low power lasers, and industrial lasers. Diode based systems did not exist at the time, so it was either a tiny hene, or a lot of power, and usually III phase power to power the laser, thus taking it out of the hands of the individual.


And yes, I'd like to see you demonstrate some safety knowledge before a retailer hands you a 500 mW greenie.

And if a club owner sells you his 20 watt 171 system, you could hand him cash, never tell him your name, and walk out with it,and he'd never get caught, unless you screw up and someone gets hurt or a plane gets illuminated. All he has to say to CDRH if they ask, is that I no longer have the system.

Steve

Sounds overboard to me. You can go to the Home Depot and buy power tools that are much more dangerous than lasers.

The problem with lasers is that the general public does not realize that they will cause eye damage if you look directly at them and that sums it all up. If the public was aware, they would police themselves. If you went to a concert and the sound guy started shooting BB guns into the audience the crowd or venue security would shut him down because it is common sense. They same type of sensibility needs to be shown with lasers. Venue owners, and even goers need to learn that a laser in the face is not good and if it happens then you tell someone and make them shut it down.

Just educating people that use lasers is not the answer because you can be educated and just not care. Educate everyone and then when some dumbass starts audience scanning the crowd will start throwing shoes and the venue owner will pull the plug. That's the way it has to work.

Since this is a problem and a problem of ignorance, the govt should step up and start having public TV and radio ads stating the dangers of laser pointers until everyone gets it. Once everyone gets it, it will be passed down through generations as common knowledge.

You can't police the world for every little danger. What's next? Certifications for using Skil Saws, kitchen knives, and putting a plug into a 120v receptacle? Guns kill people and need regulation. Lasers don't. People just need to get smarter.

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Originally Posted by carmangary

Just educating people that use lasers is not the answer because you can be educated and just not care. Educate everyone and then when some dumbass starts audience scanning the crowd will start throwing shoes and the venue owner will pull the plug. That's the way it has to work.
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People just need to get smarter.

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Exactly. For the UK, I think the first base is to release the show guidelines free to all.

The Radiation Safety of Display Laser Installations HS(G)95
Published by HSE Books 1996 ISBN 0 7176 0691

Trying to fleece a few users for a tenner a time for a few leafs of paper is pathetic, the HMSO has bigger fish to fry. By FAR the cheapest way the govt can deal with this is to let all of the public see the same documents that show people have to use, and charge nothing for this, then the public will know what they can expect. Not all will understand, but this way they won't have to pay a solicitor or other expert because lots more people near them will know what it means.

No-one's going to trust a government to legislate if it can't even pull its finger out of its arse long enough to quit trying to profit from a small number of people when it really needs to help a large one, especially when the results of restricting that flow of info will cost it more than it makes. It's incompetent in several ways no government likes to be seen to be incompetent. That guide could be a few tens of KB per download as a PDF, so there is NO excuse for charging £10.

I e-mailed Patrick about this proposal yesterday, and I've been talking with Clandestiny about it since Wednesday. I was thinking about starting a thread here on PL about this whole thing; I should have realized that someone would have already started it by then. (Yeah, I'm still catching up on the message backlog and just now got to this sub-forum.)

Some background on this initiative: It's not new. It was first voted for back in 2004. And the people driving it are the larger laser show production companies. Guys like LaserNet, LaserWave, and so on. Why do they want it? Simple. They want some recognition - some return on their investment in ILDA over the years. Understandably, this has offended a lot of the smaller companies (not to mention individuals) in the ILDA ranks.

Personally, I have no reason to apply for this accreditation program, nor do I have any hope of meeting all of it's goals. But for a smaller laser show company that might aspire to gain accreditation, I can sympathize with their complaints regarding the program - at least as it is currently presented. As for what benefit the larger companies expect to gain from it, I'm really not sure. I honestly see it as bragging rights more than anything.

Nevertheless, here are some of my concerns:

The requirement to have won an award is unreasonable and should be removed as a primary requirement. I have no problem awarding "bonus points" to a company that has received an award, but it should not be a primary requirement. I don't even like the suggestion posed on the ILDA mailing list that you must at least submit a show for an award in order to qualify. This is not an indication of professionalism in my book.

The requirement to have 5 letters of recommendation from previous clients is completely unprofessional, and should be dropped altogether. If a client hires a laser show company to do a show, clearly they do so with the understanding that the laser show company is professional. Now, after the show is complete, ILDA expects the lasers show company to go back to the client asking for a letter of recommendation? Are you kidding me? That can only diminish the reputation of the laser show company in the eye's of the client.

The bulk of the remaining requirements are reasonable if you're looking to put together a "grandfather clause" for existing show companies. But in my opinion, that is not enough. If you are going to roll out an accreditation program like this, then you also need to provide a means for new companies to gain the knowledge required to gain certification. This is where a web-based training program would fit in as one piece of the accreditation puzzle. Steve Roberts' idea of ham-radio-style exams proctored by accredited members is also worth considering.

In fact, I believe that the training / education side of the program should be rolled out *first*, because I think that is where the industry as a whole will see the most benefit. The risk to the industry is largely due to the actions of the uneducated, which leads to public backlash and increased government oversight. Thus education should be a primary goal.

Still, in my opinion the existing laser show production companies that are already operating professionally will gain very little from this program. Seriously - is LaserNet really going to be able to book that many extra shows in a year once they achieve "ILDA accreditation status"? Which clients, exactly, are going to be impressed with this new addition to their business cards?

Finally, I have to question why ILDA is working on this at all, when there appear to be so many other worthy projects out there tht could benefit far more people. How about the laser operator safety training curriculum (both beginner and advanced) that we previewed at SELEM 2008? When will that be finalized? (And will there be any certification tied to it?) Or better yet, what about a serious, scientific challenge to the absurdly low MPE for audience scanning here in the US?

Regardless of my misgivings about the program, it's not enough to drive me away from ILDA. They are the only organization in our corner right now, and they have done a lot of good. Too just throw your hands up and walk away is the cheap way out. Better to stay and argue your point to change things for the better.

Also, I understand that the larger companies were the one's that ponied up the cash last summer for the press release after the Aquamarine Rave incident outsite Moscow. I'm sure everyone appreciates their donation, which helped *all of us*. So I can appreciate why some of them may be pushing for this accreditation program. (Though I fail to see how it will help them all that much.)

The concern is that it could divide the members. I have a hard time believing that this is the goal of the program though. I think it just needs to be modified a bit. I have no problem with the goals being set high. But there needs to be a reasonable path that a company can follow to meet those goals. That reasonable path should include education, not awards and letters of recommendation.

Adam

Well, i hate to say this.. but i agree completely with everything that adam just said..