Color Correction/Delay Boards are available!

Hello folks, ok, the color boards are available! First off, I'd like to give a big thanks to Bill at Pangolin for his contribution in making this happen. I wanted to come up with a hybrid version of the simple Sallen Key circuit he has on his website, jazzed up with some other features and I really appreciate his input and guidance in making this a well rounded circuit. It still blows me away at how much time he dedicates to us hobbiest. Thanks Bill!

I'd also like to thank Buffo for spending a weekend with me installing one of these color boards in his projector, plus the time he's spending on writing the tutorial on how to tune them!

So there you have it, the boards are available. I ask that you read through Buffo's mini-review of the board http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...63&postcount=1.

Basically, the board has a differential to single ended input stage. You can feed it either a differential or single ended signal and the output stays the same. There are two diodes in the circuit which keep the output within -.3 to +5.1V. The total current draw on the test board I have here is around 50mA per supply side. The board can be run from you scanner amp power supply IF the output doesn't exceed 25VDC per side (ie. +25VDC to -25VDC). It would seem that most scanner supplies are +24VDC to -24VDC, check before you connect!

Regarding availability, I have limited stock built and tested at this point, if you place your order and I'm sold out, there could be a delay. I'll email you when your order is received to let you know, or feel free to send me a PM to check the status of stock.

Due to the difficulties in tuning this board, I'm offering a 15 day money back guarantee. See the website for details.

www.dzelaser.com/color_correction_circuit.htm

For a quick idea of what it does (this is also posted on my website) Here's a before and after pic of a test pattern.
Before:
http://www.dzelaser.com/images/ccdc/rgb_nofix.JPG


After:
http://www.dzelaser.com/images/ccdc/rgb_fix.JPG

Thanks!

Sweet!

PayPal enroute!! :)

WOW! That looks SO much smaller than the board I just picked up from the Pango office. :confused: ;)

LOL! Yeah, slight difference between the prototype and the final product. Glad to hear you got it!

More good stuff...

Payment sent.

Thanks David,

Greg

Payment sent, looking forward to playing with more of your great contributions to PL!!

Thanks guys! I appreciate it, I hope you guy find the board to be of great benefit for you projectors.

Just a quick update, I'm down to 2 boards with the top turn pots and 2 boards with the side turn pots. Once these are gone, it's going to be a little bit before I can get more stock built.

Hey, how fo I use this beast? :confused:

LOL! Ok;
Step 1. Call Buffo
Step 2. Repeat Step 1 until in tune
:p

I can give you a ring in a little bit, just finishing up some packaging.

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Originally Posted by DZ

LOL! Ok;
Step 1. Call Buffo
Step 2. Repeat Step 1 until in tune
:p

I can give you a ring in a little bit, just finishing up some packaging.

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He goes to bed too early... :rolleyes:

I am mainly concerned with where the color board goes in relation to the break out board. And if the DT40's power supply is good enough for the scanners and color board? ;) I am not sure if I am down to try to tune em tonight.

Oh ok, well, since that is the prototype, the way I have it configured is that you just plug your ilda cable in to one end from the QM2K, then plug a second ILDA cable to the other connector to your projector. The power supply for the DT-40's is all you will need to run it, just make sure that +V and -V get plugged in properly! If you're up for it, I should be around late friday night if you want to go through the steps over the phone. Let me know.

Computer->Color board->Break out board->components of the projector... :cool:

I just want to make sure the scanners signals would get through the Color board and the break out board would not mess with the Color board changes. ;)

Allthat, that is correct for using the prototype board since it was designed to be attached outside of the projector for testing. The ILDA breakout board will not cause any ill effects to the color signals after passing through the color board.

Ok guys, all orders received till right now will ship out on friday 2/6/2009. I currently have 1 board with top turn pots and 2 with side turn pots left. I'll be working on more stock as soon as I can. Thanks!

I've got the tuning tutorial completed for these boards. DZ is reviewing it right now.

I must warn people that adjusting these boards for maximum performance is time consuming. (The tutorial runs 7 pages long!) But the results are worth it in my opinion.

I should have the file back from David later today with any edits or changes he wants to make. Then I'll post the final version.

Also, for those of you who will be attending FLEM on March 21st, we will be demoing this board (including live before-and-after views) for everyone. Not 100% sure yet if we'll be broadcasting live or not, but if we are broadcasting live, be sure to tune in and check out the new color correction board demo!

Adam

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Originally Posted by buffo

I've got the tuning tutorial completed for these boards. DZ is reviewing it right now.

I must warn people that adjusting these boards for maximum performance is time consuming. (The tutorial runs 7 pages long!) But the results are worth it in my opinion.

I should have the file back from David later today with any edits or changes he wants to make. Then I'll post the final version.

Also, for those of you who will be attending FLEM on March 21st, we will be demoing this board (including live before-and-after views) for everyone. Not 100% sure yet if we'll be broadcasting live or not, but if we are broadcasting live, be sure to tune in and check out the new color correction board demo!

Adam

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Hey Adam, just wanted to give a big thanks for putting this together, I owe you one big time!

After having tuned one for mine, then retuning it for yours, then reading through the tutorial, it reminds me of a poster one of my customers has hanging in the data center: http://nuxx.net/gallery/d/70567-1/un...cre-poster.jpg

Ahhh - you don't owe me anything David. I'm just happy that you agreed to take on this project. I think it's really going to help a lot of people! Writing the tutorial was easy - designing and assembling the board, now that had to be hard! So if anything, we all owe you one! Also, we owe a big thanks to Bill Benner at Pangolin for all his assistance with the design.

Love the poster, BTW! There is a certain "magic" to getting these boards dialed in just right. Hopefully the tutorial will help. But there's no substitute for experimenting with the board. The more time you spend tweaking it, the easier it becomes.

Adam

David,

Thanks for the fast shipping my color card arrived safely today! I am excited to see the directions on how to do the adjusting.

Also how would you recommend installing a disconnect to bypass the board?

LJ

Excellent! Glad it arrived so quickly. I'll have to put together a little diagram on how to add a bypass and post it when I get a chance. I think the tutorial is good to go so you are welcome to post it Buffo. Thanks!

Very well. OK, then - here's the file. Have at it, folks! It's an MS-word document, though if anyone has a problem reading that I can post the text in another thread.

Adam,

Thanks Adam document looks good.

Now all I need is my LD2000 card so I can start to put all of the parts together! Should be here this week.

I took the liberty of converting it to PDF. It actually shaved the size down to 80 kB.

http://tocket.mine.nu/laser/Color%20...20Tutorial.pdf

I'll be referring to this myself soon, as I ordered one of these boards from DZ and it's on its way here now. :D

Thanks, Tocket!

I had Adobe pdf writer installed a long time ago, but that was before the crash and reformat. One of these days I'll get around to re-installing it again, but for the moment there are more pressing matters!

I'm surprised the file ended up so small though. It must have re-sampled the one picture quite well. The original was cropped and re-compressed, but still ended up being close to 500K, which is why the word document was so large to start with.

Still, thanks again for making it more manageable! And good luck with your new board. Like I said - adjusting it takes a lot of time and a good bit of patience, but the results are worth it!

Adam

Awesome! Thanks Adam for posting this and thanks tocket for converting it to PDF. Tocket, do you mind if I add the pdf file to my website?

Not at all! That probably makes easier even for me to find. :p

I used Acrobat Pro to convert it. While I'm not to fond of the bloated Adobe Reader, Acrobat Pro is very nice for creating PDFs. I think I even have a license for it through my school. :)

Received my board and cable kit in the mail today - AWESOME, professional construction job, as always!

Thanks, DZ - I look forward to trying it out in my projector!

Looking good, nice job DZ. Can't wait to read through the tutorial.

Hey DZ / Buffo

Could I make one suggestion for the docmentation

Add a drawing detailing the pots and connectors for clear reference

Other than that it all makes sence:)

Troy

Hey loopee, thanks for the suggestion, I'll work on getting that added to the tutorial. When you get the board, it is fairly well labelled, I hope everyone finds it all very easy to read and understand, but I will get it added to the tutorial.

Thanks!

This may be one of those "duh" questions, but -

For the Pangolin folks, before we start "tweaking" the color board, I'm assuming we'll want to get dialed in as close as possible using the color palette wizard. Other than what is specifically mentioned in the tutorial, anything else we need to do on the software side before we start?

Perhaps the most important thing to change is the blanking delay. Usually, it's set to 4. You'll want to change it to 3.

Regarding the color palette wizard, it would probably be best to have everything setup with the color wizard first. The instructions on Pangolin's website actually have you select the default basic palette, however, the results we had seemed to be better when configuring your colors through the wizard first, then begin adjusting the board.

Right... What DZ said! :D

Also, all this is in the first part of the tutorial.

Adam

Just ordered one, thanks Dave

Received, it looks nice. I have read the tutorial, however I'd lke to get past generalities.. before I use this I'd like some hard specs on the capabilities of board. Something like a data sheet.

A good start would be:
Min/max: Vin, Vout, Gain, Offset, and Min/Max timing shift of RE, FE.
Absolute Maximum ratings for Vin, Iout.
Output impedance and recommended current driving capability.
Input impedance.
Output saturation voltage verses supply voltage (although I can guess this from the TL084 chips datasheet)

Please excuse me if this is an unusual request but my engineering side would like to know what it's dealing with before installing and trying to use this component in my projector.

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by drlava

before I use this I'd like some hard specs on the capabilities of board. Something like a data sheet.

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You understand we're talking about the color modulation signal, right? So a data sheet with gain and output current limits is really pointless. The range of voltages is zero to 5 volts. Period. The outputs of the board are hard-limited to that range regardless of any adjustments on the board or any faulty input signals you send to it. DZ mentioned all that in his earlier posts about the board.

As for current driving capability, why are you even concerned about that? This is COLOR MODULATION data. It's not designed to drive anything. Your input stage on the laser driver should be a very high input impedance device - something like a mosfet - so the board shouldn't be sourcing much current at all. (As an analogy, would you request a data sheet for the Easylase USB controller before you connected it to your projector, so that you would know how much current it could source on the modulation lines?) For the record, even a QM-2000 can only source around 20 ma or so on the color lines.

Also, it's been demonstrated that the board can drive a pair of drivers on a single color channel with no problems. Laser drivers typically don't pull more than a few ma of current, so unless you want to drive 30 drivers off a single channel, I don't see where the problem lies.

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my engineering side would like to know what it's dealing with before installing and trying to use this component in my projector.

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You might want to send DZ a PM. He may be willing to share more details about the board with you. Though really, if you are uncomfortable installing it in your projector, then connect it to a dual-trace oscilloscope first and watch the input and output traces as it's operating. That should quell any concerns you might have.

Adam

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Originally Posted by buffo

You understand we're talking about the color modulation signal, right?

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Hmm I hope you're joking.. :)

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So a data sheet with gain and output current limits is really pointless. The range of voltages is zero to 5 volts. Period. The outputs of the board are hard-limited to that range regardless of any adjustments on the board or any faulty input signals you send to it. DZ mentioned all that in his earlier posts about the board.

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You might not be used to working with components and using data sheets for design, but these are the sort of things that would commonly be specified for any component, and this is a projector component. Whether he mentioned it in earlier posts in other threads is irrelevant, a product should have a consolidated data sheet. It's understandable that he hasn't done it yet, this was just a friendly (hopefully helpful) push in that direction.

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As for current driving capability, why are you even concerned about that? This is COLOR MODULATION data. It's not designed to drive anything. Your input stage on the laser driver should be a very high input impedance device - something like a mosfet - so the board shouldn't be sourcing much current at all. (As an analogy, would you request a data sheet for the Easylase USB controller before you connected it to your projector, so that you would know how much current it could source on the modulation lines?) For the record, even a QM-2000 can only source around 20 ma or so on the color lines.

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Again, it's for specification purposes. Without knowing the rating, we're left to guess that, yeah it should work with a few lasers on each color, but given each laser has a different input impedance, it's speculation until the facts are in. If I paid around $300+ for an easylase controller, you better believe I would expect it to come with specifications such as this, and especially if I paid a few thousand for a pango board. Would you not? You see, the output impedance is an important measure. Let's say that I'm building a multi-red laser with 8 diodes and drivers. Let's say that each driver takes 1mA, you might think that a board that can source 20mA is fine, and it would be, at least it wouldn't be damaged, but if the output impedance after feedback is 100 ohms then instead of 5V modulation out you could get (5-0.001*8*100) = 4.2V ! That's a more extreme example of why specifications are important.
Additionally, the range of delays has a direct impact on whether the board fits certain applications, so this is another natural spec.

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Also, it's been demonstrated that the board can drive a pair of drivers on a single color channel with no problems. Laser drivers typically don't pull more than a few ma of current, so unless you want to drive 30 drivers off a single channel, I don't see where the problem lies.

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There is no problem, it was a request.
You've seen my review of the S-KY blue laser so you should know that I prefer quantitative specs to qualitative specs (and reviews). Heck, most engineers do.

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You might want to send DZ a PM. He may be willing to share more details about the board with you. Though really, if you are uncomfortable installing it in your projector, then connect it to a dual-trace oscilloscope first and watch the input and output traces as it's operating. That should quell any concerns you might have.

Adam

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Sent a PM a long time ago, and we got off to a good start. This is less about sharing details and more about defining what he's selling. Sure, an oscilloscope is an option but typically one isn't left to figure out the specs for themselves when buying a component. If you go to my site you'll see every electronic component I sell has a spec sheet.

You see, while your tutorial is nice in a hand-holding sort of way and it's great you got it out there, but with a spec sheet I wouldn't need to read it all all, everything would be clear what to do, and it would be natural, like scanner tuning. Hope that clears up to you where I'm coming from!

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Originally Posted by drlava

If I paid around $300+ for an easylase controller, you better believe I would expect it to come with specifications such as this

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Then you would be dissappointed, because it does not come with such a spec sheet that lists impedance for the color outputs.

As for me, no, I would not be upset, because I understand that it's information that I do not need.

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Let's say that I'm building a multi-red laser with 8 diodes and drivers.

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If I was building such a multi-red laser, I would contact the manufacturer and ask the question. But what you are talking about is the exception, not the norm.

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Additionally, the range of delays has a direct impact on whether the board fits certain applications, so this is another natural spec.

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Such information would only be useful if you already had the delay information available for the lasers you want to use. But the only way you're going to get that sort of information is to perform the tests yourself with a fast photodiode. (Well, unless you pay serious money for a high-end laser made in the US, and even then you'll need to select one that was built to meet a certain spec in the first place.) Look at any of the Chinese lasers that people here on PL are using and see if you can glean any useful information about RE and FE response times from the specs that are provided.

DZ did mention in his early posts about the board that the delay circuit had two ranges (jumper-selectable), and I'm sure he can provide more information to you about specific delay times if you want. However, this product was designed to be as easy as possible for the hobbyist to install and adjust. Including the specs you are asking about would be irrelevent to the vast majority of the targeted users of the board.

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This is less about sharing details and more about defining what he's selling.

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Well, I see it more as needlessly complicating what is intended to be a simple solution. If you are hung up about specs, that's your prerogative, but they are meaningless to nearly everyone else. Heck, you can't even verify the response times unless you have a dual trace oscilloscope and a fast photo-diode, so what's the point in even talking about them? No one else is going to be able to use the information. In fact, the adjustment procedure was written specifically so that the board could be adjusted correctly *without* requiring any special test equipment.

Adam

I'm not sure why you are so insistent on arguing against quantitative documentation.. this is not even your product.

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Originally Posted by buffo

Then you would be dissappointed, because it does not come with such a spec sheet that lists impedance for the color outputs.

As for me, no, I would not be upset, because I understand that it's information that I do not need.

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Just because you would not use it personally, why do you think it should not be available to others that could?

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Such information would only be useful if you already had the delay information available for the lasers you want to use. But the only way you're going to get that sort of information is to perform the tests yourself with a fast photodiode. (Well, unless you pay serious money for a high-end laser made in the US, and even then you'll need to select one that was built to meet a certain spec in the first place.) Look at any of the Chinese lasers that people here on PL are using and see if you can glean any useful information about RE and FE response times from the specs that are provided.

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Actually, you're wrong about this. The delay range only really needs to be as large as the slowest reasonable sample-to-sample time of your DAC, because then the color shift can be compensated by point shifts and the board takes care of the rest. So no information of the laser delay is needed, and besides that, there are test frames that can show you the delay of your laser, no special equipment is needed.

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DZ did mention in his early posts...
Well, I see it more as needlessly complicating...
Adam

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More detail complicates use? Are you a single-button mouse man? :) All along we have been talking about a separate spec sheet from your tutorial which beginners wouldn't read anyway, so it wouldn't complicate anything. Again, I don't see why you are so insistent on saying that because you wouldn't use something, it shouldn't be available to others who could. In the end this is DZ's decision and I'm sure he's capable of making it himself.

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Originally Posted by drlava

I'm not sure why you are so insistent on arguing against quantitative documentation.. this is not even your product.

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I'm arguing over your hypocritical stance on the issue. You expect this product to come with a spec sheet that contains excessive documentation, yet you don't provide some of those same specs (like input & output impedance values) for your own Flexmod drivers, nor do you demand that the lasers you purchase come with simiilarly detailed modulation performance data. In short, you are trying to hold DZ's product to a much higher standard than your own. (Or any other laser related product on the market.) I find that offensive; it's as if you're trying to play a round of stump the teacher when you know darn well that the actual point you are arguing about is meaningless.

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Just because you would not use it personally, why do you think it should not be available to others that could?

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My point is that it's highly irregular to include such information with such a trivial product. Even high-end laser show controllers do not include the information you are asking about, yet you don't seem to be complaining to the likes of Medialas, Pangolin, and Full Auto about it. So why all the attention on this color board all of the sudden? Particularly when DZ is producing it at such a low cost? As I said, if *you* want the information, then you can contact DZ privately for it, but there's no need to insist that he include it with the kit. (Honestly, why did you even buy the thing if you felt you needed all this extra information before you'd hook it up?)

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The delay range only really needs to be as large as the slowest reasonable sample-to-sample time of your DAC,

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Clearly, you haven't connected the board and experimented with it, or you would not have made such a general (and completely incorrect) statement. The board needs to be able to slow down the fastest laser to match the response time of the slowest laser. This has nothing to do with sample-to-sample time. (Hint: not everyone runs at 30K, remember. The sample-to-sample time is a completely separate variable that the board has no bearing on.)

However, you are correct in that you don't need an oscilloscope to set up the board, because you can see the results on the test patterns as you adjust it. But you completely missed the larger issue. You are asking for delay information about the board, even though it will do you no good unless you have matching delay information about all three of your lasers - and that information can only be measured with a fast photodiode and an oscilloscope.

Fine - you're an engineer. Send DZ a PM and ask him for the information. But don't make it sound like he should have included this laundry list of specs from the very start, when no one else in the industry (including you) does this, and when it will not change the setup or operation of the board one bit.

Adam

Hmm, it looks like what started off as "Please excuse me if this is an unusual request" has turned personal. Ouch! I'll try to stay away from that.

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Originally Posted by buffo

I'm arguing over your hypocritical stance on the issue. You expect this product to come with a spec sheet that contains excessive documentation, yet you don't provide some of those same specs (like input & output impedance values) for your own Flexmod drivers, nor do you demand that the lasers you purchase come with simiilarly detailed modulation performance data. In short, you are trying to hold DZ's product to a much higher standard than your own. (Or any other laser related product on the market.) I find that offensive; it's as if you're trying to play a round of stump the teacher when you know darn well that the actual point you are arguing about is meaningless.

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The datasheet I include with the flexdrive and flexmod has a LOT more detail on using the item and specs than any other similar hobbyist spec sheets I have seen (when they exist). Whenever anyone has asked a technical question about the use of my drivers, I've given the detail they asked for and more, and generally then include it in the sheet. FYI the output impedance of a current controlled driver is meaningless I.E. close to zero. If anyone had ever asked about the input impedance I would have answered fully, and now that you have asked I'll put it in. Do you see the difference? Not only is there a spec sheet but it includes a lot of details and will be added to per requests.. I don't see this as hypocritical.

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My point is that it's highly irregular to include such information with such a trivial product. Even high-end laser show controllers do not include the information you are asking about, yet you don't seem to be complaining to the likes of Medialas, Pangolin, and Full Auto about it. So why all the attention on this color board all of the sudden? Particularly when DZ is producing it at such a low cost? As I said, if *you* want the information, then you can contact DZ privately for it, but there's no need to insist that he include it with the kit. (Honestly, why did you even buy the thing if you felt you needed all this extra information before you'd hook it up?)

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"Please excuse me if this is an unusual request" was my original statement. I'm not complaining, I asked because I bought it, I bought it because it's a useful and good product at a good price. You don't see me 'complaining' (asking?) about Medialas, Pangolin, and Full Auto because I have not purchased their items. Why the vitriol?

Like I said, I contacted DZ a long time ago and he answered the most important question directly so as far as I was concerned this discussion was mostly over before you entered.

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Clearly, you haven't connected the board and experimented with it, or you would not have made such a general (and completely incorrect) statement. The board needs to be able to slow down the fastest laser to match the response time of the slowest laser. This has nothing to do with sample-to-sample time. (Hint: not everyone runs at 30K, remember. The sample-to-sample time is a completely separate variable that the board has no bearing on.)

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What I was saying was that if the slowest laser is slower than the fastest laser by more than a whole sample time, then I can set the software to compensate for that laser up to less than the sample time and the board can take care of the rest. This is fact, and why I said that was the minimum required delay range. Again, maybe a different use from yours, but still correct but you claim it's incorrect because that's not the way you use it. Ideally, the board corrects for the whole range of laser delays, but I was stating a minimum value there.

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But you completely missed the larger issue. You are asking for delay information about the board, even though it will do you no good unless you have matching delay information about all three of your lasers - and that information can only be measured with a fast photodiode and an oscilloscope.

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not true, sorry. Maybe I'll draw up a delay measurement frame, should be fun. Also, the purpose of my drivers is to drive lasers, so I focus on that aspect in the sheets. A main purpose of the board is to delay, so... why not include delay info. Seems logical.

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Fine - you're an engineer. Send DZ a PM and ask him for the information. But don't make it sound like he should have included this laundry list of specs from the very start, when no one else in the industry (including you) does this, and when it will not change the setup or operation of the board one bit.

Adam

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Already done. This information is very simple for the designer to specify. I do conscientiously include lots of specs for hobbyist type boards as stated previously, more than most. It helps the setup and operation of the board for those who know what to do with specs. Please take a look at this outside of your current perspective.

YOU TWO ARE HEARBY ORDERED
TO BE FRIENDS!

Or I will lock you in a room at Selem with a repeating loop of the song "The Farmer and The Cowboy Should be Friends" From Oklahoma!

Steve

Much better than the "I feel the wind is blowing thier urine too close to me..." I was going to post. ;)

Hey DZ, this colot correction board is really great. I was looking for it a long time. But I have a question. Could I use this colorboard also for a RG projector, or will this damage the board with wrong power distribution. It would be cool if I can use it for my 800mw RGY projector.:)

Hoop to hear from you.

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Originally Posted by allthatwhichis

Much better than the "I feel the wind is blowing thier urine too close to me..." I was going to post. ;)

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Is that from "Urinetown" or something else?

Urinetown has a unique plot for a musical, in the future, you have to pay to pee in New York, every time you go..... even in your own home.

Steve

Whoa! Looks like I missed a bit! Let me start here:

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Hey DZ, this colot correction board is really great. I was looking for it a long time. But I have a question. Could I use this colorboard also for a RG projector, or will this damage the board with wrong power distribution. It would be cool if I can use it for my 800mw RGY projector.:)

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Yes, it would work just fine with an RYG projector. Regarding power, as long as you keep the voltage within the tolerance, it should work fine. The recommended limit for the voltage regulators that I used is 25V per side (+25VDC to -25VDC). Most, if not all of the Chinese scanners seem to run on +/- 24VDC power supplies and would work fine. The nominal current draw is about 50mA. If you wanted to wire up a quick supply, you can buy a 12.6-0-12.6VAC transformer from Radio Shack and a bridge rectifier, connect it to the color board and it's good to go.

Regarding the rest of the post above, I hate to see that this has gotten a bit out of hand. While I do believe it would be nice to have a very detailed spec sheet, fact of the matter is, very few people would find any of the information beneficial. Which is why I haven't spent the time to create one and instead I've been concentrating on some other projects. Perhaps at some point, I will get to creating the spec sheet, but for now, all the basic information needed to hook up, run and tune the board are available on my website. And for an idea of what the circuit diagram looks like, visit Pangolin's website.

Sorry for the delay in replying to this, I've just been slammed for the past few days.