So it has happened?
The donate is not working as well as it should?
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So it has happened?
The donate is not working as well as it should?
We were talking with Admin about this last night in the live chat test, apparently we're gonna see how it goes, for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by dave
Personally I have no issue with the use of advertising on the site as long as it’s only minor banners.
I’d also rather see focused advertising with ads from likes of Pangolin, Laserwave, Vasho, etc than random Google ads. Do something similar to the Laserfreak site. (It also provides convenient links to the vendor’s websites:))
There also needs to be a larger gap between the banner and the menu bar, it will become very annoying when you keep accidentally clicking on ads.
Troy
A sad day for us all ................ :(
id rather the boss just asked for more money than have stupid advertisments
I don't see a problem with it. Having said that it would perhaps be more useful if the adverts were targeted toward laser users.
Maybe the likes of Pangolin, Kvant, Laserwave etc etc would be interested in contributing ;)
Jem
Sad day indeed :(
I would rather see a donation tracker at the bottom of the page..
Still.. Firefox and Adblock Plus are a good answer
"it will become very annoying when you keep accidentally clicking on ads. "
Hahhah I think thats the point ! lets face it at pennies/cents per click there IS NOT ENOUGH OF US here to realistically generate ANY REAL income from clicks. If admin was to move ads to somewhere where only the people interested is that ad actually clicked on it im pretty sure th income would be pityful. The position the ads are in will generate 100 times more clicks , and personally I think its unfair on the advertisers.
Admin could set up a banner section alongside the photonlexicon banner and sell the space , im pretty sure this type of banner sales would generate more than accidental clicks on ads people arent that interested in. Certain large companies would buy banner space to promote their brand and establish their brand , others will buy spce hoping to get clicks and sales and only they will know if its a worthwhile return , the main advantage of this is new companies who maybe faded in a few threads will now be able to draw attention to themselves
Persoanlly I hope the adsense ads above fade quickly from this forum , or are kept , but in a corner at the bottom somewhere , real income can be generated i better ways
i would also rather a trackerQuote:
Originally Posted by p1t8ull
TBH, I'm not really too fussed, however is anyone going to click on any of the links? Seriously?
Well, considering that clicking on the links is a way to make money for the site, yeah, I'll do it. How hard is it to right click, select "open in new tab", and then click on the "contact us" link when the ad page comes up? Takes maybe 5 seconds... And clicking through like that earns Spec a little coin. That's not a bad thing, is it?
Adam
I don't think that's the issue; I reckon there are much better ways to make a little coin (or a big coin even!).Quote:
Originally Posted by buffo
Personally I think a donation bar at the bottom of the main page would be the best solution; as it provides concrete targets (and it wouldn't clutter the top of the pages!)
Dan
I agree... having a Donations Bar would allow members to see that a
Donation would help pay for the months Forum costs... and remind them
about donating a little something...
Jerry
Good point Adam, didn't think of that!Quote:
Originally Posted by buffo
Ads are a bad way to advertise, when I came online yesterday I really had to think about what has changed. My eyes just haven't seen the ad banner!
if most of you not like the random ad by google, if all of you not against, laserwave would like contribute to PL and do Ad banner .
Admin,we waiting your voice, :).
Best regards!
Bridge
Ads are a great way to generate some income for hosting and the time put into this place!
I like the ads, go to any other forum and they're freaking annoying, because they're super bloated! i don't mind them at the top there.. They're laser related as well, providing some interesting reading.
If you want to help keep the forum running, and thank the admin for all the work put into this place.. Click a few links, you might even find something interesting or useful in the ads. Not that big a deal.
I just clicked about 5 links and donated $50..
Thanks Admin
Cheers
Id personally rather pay to use the sales forum.
$1 for cheap stuff under $250
$2 for stuff upto $1000
$5 items over $1000
Anyway, I have donated enough to cover my next bunch of sales, whenever they may be.
I would suggest charging members for having pictures in their signature.
Or just charge them for having a link in their signature.
People use these pictures as "free advertisement' on the forums.
It might not be a link to a proffessional business, it's a free traffic traffic generator none the less.
To me that's more irritating than the google adds. It takes up a lot of bandwidth and adds little info.
It's a sour grape that the admin is having a hard time finding funds for this forum while offering others free advertisement.
yep admin should start lexiconbay :D:D
i would be happy to pay, then again i would be happy to pay a yearly members fee who would say no to that, for a great site like this ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by QUAZAR
I tried to contact admin about how to donate (other than PayPal), but no answer was received.:confused:
Quote:
Originally Posted by -bart-
The ads are a test. The test has three possible outcomes:
1) Failure: Does not purchase enough bleach to get the dirty off.
2) Success: Next LEM is on the moon.
3) HOLYCRAP: Free transportation to the above mentioned LEM.
My money is on 1.
I can not, will not and do not request that links are clicked. Its against the terms of service for them. Fraudulent clicks are a bad idea. Inconveniently enough I can not discuss the specifics of the campaign either, also a part of the TOS.
They are positioned on the board in a default layout as generated by the vbulletin dev team who I imagine put some thought into "optimal positioning" and I Imagine they are supposed to be "annoying" "right where they shouldn't be" for a reason.
That being said: Running firefox? You really should be running adblock plus. Seriously. Do it. I don't even see the ads here, and neither should you.
You think the top and bottom ads are bad... The unregistered users who browse the site get a big nasty one below the first post.
With regards to setting up vendor advertisements, no. 2.1 reasons:
1) Their money should be placed in development and not "telling people what they already know". Everyone knows the respective vendors here and short of being able to offer a "deal" a banner ad is the equivalent of a bedpost notch.
2) With google adsense I can nuke the "campaign" within 30 seconds. Just wipe it off the board completely. The same can not be said for long standing banner ads of "in pocket" advertisers.
2.1) In pocket advertisers might feel obligated to request posts and threads on the board be removed if it conflicts with their business. "Seller Review" and "Product Review" become points of contention where people do not feel like they can post what they think without having to wonder if the banner-ad holder will "gently request under penalty of non-payment" to have the thread wiped.
I have a couple other ideas floating around, any of which would hopefully revoke the ad usage entirely.
admin-
a few things-
and i am also going to post this in the lounge section.
1) what is the "Average" monthly cost of this forum? (if you dont mind me asking?)
2) i will publically say right now that there is absolutely no reason what so ever that you should be paying a nickel out of your own poscket for this site.
3) i hate the ads idea. i think our community here is too valuable to stare at ads.
i pose this idea...
i know for my company, alot of my business is becasue of this site. a lot of my exposure is because of this site. so therefor i should definitely be financially supporting this site. this is why i would like to know the monthly costs. (you can PM me if you would like and i will not disclose it publically).
i think that CT Lasers, LaserShow Parts, Pangolin, KVANT, LaserWave, Lasever, DT (or DZ i guess) and whoever else, each month ban together and foot the bill for this site. "admin" has supported it enough i think financially. let him worry about the technical end of it. let the distributors here who are benefiting financially to pay it back!
there is absolutely no reason in my opinion why we cant between us all throw together a few hundred dollars minimum to keep this place going ad free.
i will commit to a *MINIMUM* of $100/ month to keep this place going ad free.
other distributors? Admin- let me/us know costs. (privately if need be).
Questions, comments welcome...
-Marc
i think you'll find most of us already pay donations to PL for that exact reason though.. :)
as dave already asked, is the donation based system not working for us ?
As long as clicking will open new window I agree with the ads.
I also prefer the ads to be displayed only for not logged viewers.
In fact, I prefer not see the ads when logged in.
Bridge i totally agree with you there, how many posts from newer members do we see asking 'where can i buy dichros from? where can i get the pangolin FB3 from? blah blah'Quote:
Originally Posted by bridge
If there were small ads(maybe text only hyperlinks) that said something like 'buy laserwave dichros here etc, then it would save people time searching, not to mention the generation of a small bit of dollar for the running of the forum.
you wont find a much 'purer' target audience than that of a laser forum, as we're all laser-a-holics :D
Test results have been confirmed by a double blind study: The ad's are ineffective and I suspect a Adsense banhammer will be dropped on me because of the fraudulent clicks. Can't discuss the terms but hey, no ads. Ever.
Bleach it is.
Look, heres the problem. Specifically. PL doesn't cost all that much to run excluding the human element. This is currently about $150 a month and it varies with usage. The reason why the $150 variable has stayed pretty static is specifically due to the fact that I refuse up the ante any further because then I will be paying "More than Colo" and getting "Way less than colo". You may have noticed Mr.HOLYCRAP:500'D! showing up more? Well thats why. Computer applications are like bacteria: They will fill whatever container you give them. Vbulletin is a fat bloated pig.
Heres what happens if/when I go the colo route. To duplicate the current load out here with the worthless VPS I have to build 2 mean and stable servers. One for the front end stuff like the php parser/forum engine and one for the back end stuff like MySQL and mail. The two VPS's here are named BitBurner and BitFreezer for esoteric reasons related to how the bits flow and where they stop. A dual server configuration is far more stable and secure which I found out the hard way.
Thats a bare minimum of 2U assuming I don't bother to make a "decent" raid array. If I was to do this correctly I would need 4U over 2 servers with 6 drives per server. 4 in raid 10, 1 "backup to be physically changed out monthly" and one hot-swap in the event something freaking explodes. Which it will inevitably do if I don't take the "Data stability first" route.
Why raid 10? Well, have you ever see the IOP curve on SATA drives? Fucking abysmal. *But* the cost of SAS coupled with the smaller sizes makes it way way way more expensive.
Bandwidth is another one of those "fuzzy" variables. Depends on what is download where as to whether I get an adequate usage graph. This is currently being expressed mathematically as "A bucket"
Processor time is very important *as evident* by the recent string of issues related to this host I have been a client of since 2003. They are still a great host and I sighed in relief when they finally opened up their VPS options but now PL is at the point where I am running into host limitations, especially if I want to enable all the crap I have disabled and worked on through the years. I had to disable the stats engine in the background because it would vomit blood and take out the VPS when it started tabulating the log files. Interesting snippet for those who bothered to read this far into the post; I personally payed a stupid amount of money for a couple coders to build an online ILD frame creator that never freaking worked no matter how much talent and money I threw at it. Obviously my fault for taking the advice of "experts" who recommended these people. Ohh well. Its just money, right? *cries*
It's just another one of those can't win for losing and I'll be damned if I am going to give up things. Which brings me to the next point in a very round-about fashion.
I have received half a dozen buy out offers over the years, last one was a month ago and this guy was serious. Problem was he saw absurd profit potential with as he said "such a specialized niche market" and basically wanted to turn PL into a whorehouse. Think of another "popular" laser forum thats not the respectable laserfreak. One of his other terms involved the "buyout" being a silent transaction so he could continue the operations under the "Admin" moniker. That screamed dirty. In short: It's marginally more complicated than this, but I refused the offers even though I need the money for reasons I will explain later in this post. Furthermore; No I will not discuss specific values nor hint at who the empty suit is and if he happens to be reading this, I hope you get hit by a bus.
So now you know why the ad's popped up out of nowhere. I thought it could help pay my bills and pay down some debt I have been placed with due to trusting family to do the right thing. I do not joke when I say I lost sleep over the ads but at the same time I have to cover my ass so I can afford to lose sleep.
Other forums out there go "Gimme yo' money and I give you more private messages and access to stuff!"(Tm). As an example of one shall not be named forum: The largest subscription category gets you a whopping 200 PM's and still no access to the embedded vbulletin gallery. They also charge for businesses to use the BST section, they also have banner ads. It's nickel and fucking dime all the way to the bank. Ohh yea, they are making a stupid profit. Having spent my time buried in the vbulletin code I know damn well when a forum installation is is being resource balanced across multiple boxen. Information is power, and apparently they have proven that limiting the access to said information is equally powerful. Don't even get me started on another ostensibly themed laser forum out here. The stats are fraudulently weighted to make the advertisers think they are getting more for their money when nothing could be further from the truth.
Well, PL isn't them. I knew there was a problem when one of the forum members here said something to the equivalent of "PL was kind of elitist without ad's - everyone else is doing it". Well... PL is elitist: 2100 members, 500 of them are active, a substantial portion of which are here daily with a system wide average of 50 posts per user and thats counting the pile of users who never posted and only signed up to download content. Aside from the occasional drama all of this "works" without a single moderator... In that case: I'd rather PL stay this variety of elitist even if it means I get the distinct displeasure of having to deal with the occasional spat of drama instead of becoming a run of the mill money farm with an core group of administrative staff asleep at the wheel.
Where was I headed with this... I think it started out as a simple "Ads are gone" rant and rapidly progressed into its own entity.
In the newly christened live chat widget a few ideas have been tossed around regarding how to maintain the feel of PL without being terribly offensive. The one I idea I really liked was a subscription model with two classes one for personal users and one for corporate members. And I know this is going to cause a shit storm here but I have to eat and have a place to live. As it stands right now in my head in a wholly un-finalized stated: "Couple cups of coffee a month" for personal and "a few cups of coffee a week" for corporate. As far as features... Probably a User name color modification custom title/tag for personal and the same plus a top of board rotating banner at the top of every page. Maybe email addresses for personal assuming I can get the mailer-daemon back on a leash. Who knows what else, but I am really open to suggestions here that meet three qualifications; "Does not harm the community", "Does not serve to divide the community." and "Does not afford those paying the right to dictate content, specifically what people say".
Look we're all adults here(most of the time). Money is tight for everyone. The economy coupled with some bad judgment calls related to trusting family with money have squarely hit me in the head with a brick. So I regret that it has come down to this but I need to do it if I stand a chance of "getting back on track" proverbially speaking without having to entertain the idea of selling PL to someone who will destroy the idea it stands on.
With that being said; I am sorry.
*puts on flack vest and hard hat*
you will get some support from everyone here
this place is so valuable for the majority of us that they will gladly pay a subscription each month
therefore, I feel that you don't want that and I think that for you, that means the death of PL as you built it, ie a free community, strictly based on mutual support and technical passion
but now this is our part of the job of supporting YOU, and I know any of the 500 said active posters will be partcipating
so what should be your means to make PL part of your subsistance, as long as it is fair and accessible, everyone will adhere
if you need some help to maintain, work on, or anything, please tell, I'd be glad to help
I would be more than happy to pay a monthly/yearly subscription for the upkeep of the site.
It's a necessary cause!
No problem with a subscription service from me either. PL has been a valuable tool for many here, including myself. It is very reasonable that, in exchange, we help support the admin when he needs it most.
I think you'll find a lot of understandable support for the subscription idea.
Count me in.
I know for a fact that I wouldn't be in this hobby if it weren't for this site and the people involved in it!!
Good job here, Admin, and I look forward to many more years of hanging out here!! :D
I'm more than happy to to pay for a subscription, where do we pay?
There is a 'Donate' button, at the moment, in the top right hand corner of this page ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by jmilan
me bad *retardoQuote:
Originally Posted by smogthemog
Thanks Jim, I donated some.
It would be nice if there was an option for monthly recurring.
*retardo You know my attitude... http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...pictureid=1090 Let me know I can do to help.
Just show me where to sign up.
I will happliy pay a subscription , it may well work out less than my donations ... but i guess theres no easy answers , only a mixture of revenue streams will likely suffice , with regard subs , just be careful it doesnt become a monster to administer as you will likely find monthly bounces on the payments.
Another idea maybe to run an international raffle , asking for donations / discounted equipment from various manufactuers and charging for tickets , i guess this maybe a better revenue stream than donations ..or maybe not
Whatever you do DONT GIVE UP , and thnaks to you and everyone else for making this my favourite home on the net
PAUL
Well, its up. User Control Panel > Misc > Paid Subscriptions.
OK - that was easy! :D
1 request though: Can you make it possible to pay by the year instead of by the month? I think that would be more convenient, especially for non-business members.
Adam
I thought about that for a little while before dropping the sub system in place and here is the issue as I see it from the administrative side: Say some "Big-thinker" needs to get clue-by-four'd... I don't have to worry about prorating a paypal refund, just refund the entirety of the last one regardless of time frame.
It would certainly be "better" from the income side to block a year at once(one paypal fee hit) but seriously felt that the monthly recurring paypal thing would be saner coupled with the "what if" of someone that doesn't remember the renewal date and gets hit hard in the bank account...
I know I probably put too much thought into it... am I wrong in my assumption?
Does it auto-renew each month, or do I have to keep visiting PayPal to re-up?
Adam
According to the documentation I read it will auto renew until you cancel the subscription or I manually nuke it. Guess I'll find out in about 30 days *exactly* how it operates.
OK, so what does this now mean?
Is this still a pay if you want to pay thing or is it mandatory if you use the forum?
Will everyone get an Admin PM explaining what is happening/what to do?
You don't *have* to pay. If you *choose* to pay, you get a few perks, such as the ability to change the tag under your user name, more PM storage space, and a few others. You also get that warm, fuzzy feeling knowing that you've helped pay for the cost to run the place, and for Admin's time to keep everything working correctly.
If you don't pay, you can still log in, post, send and receive messages, and all the normal stuff that you always could do.
Adam
Now sorted :)
And to a very worthy cause!
If you donate, goes your username then bold and blue by any chance?
Yes.
Adam
plus a few characters to make 15...
I think that is a good and fair idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by buffo
I also agree with smog, everyone getting a PM from Spec --some folks may have not seen this thread.
Just sent my PP.
Is there a statistic on the percentage of bandwidth used by contributing members vs the bandwidth used by lurkers/googlers?
Excellent idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by drlava
Then we can sort people out into"Us" & "Them", start pointing the finger at leechers, rounding up the villagers with flaming torches etc.
Oh look, you've already started ! :p