Whom uses what for cadding PCBS? I used to use Eagle but its too hard to get good 274x Gerbers out of it!
Steve
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Whom uses what for cadding PCBS? I used to use Eagle but its too hard to get good 274x Gerbers out of it!
Steve
Thanks steve ... you cheerd me up
i spent many years with my head in Gerbtool .... we were one of the first UK companys in the late 80s to have a laser plotter
yes it was only a raster plotter so it was very slow ... but i enjoyed my previous years ... using a photoplotter .... and setting the aperture sizes in software was a bit of a pain .... anyway before i go of on a tangent ..... in the UK the first good bit of PCB design software available for the hobbiest was called EASYPC .... and that was the one that ( even after using gerbtool ) i always fell back on ... it was wonderfull .. all DOS based but .... used minimul keystrokes .... and .... after finishing a design .... i could sit for hours .... watching my Roland pen plotter ( before we had the photo and laser plotter ) bringing it to life
STEVE ... what have you done ... you are digging into my memories :D
but ..... ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ thanks for the flashback
sorry dont know what happening in the PCB design world today .... but someone told me that in the www ther are suppliers that you can down load good design software for free .... but it is tied to the PCB manufactuers ..... so you can not print out copies of the HPGL or Excellon Drill data files ..... but alows you to place he order directly with the internet based supplier
anyway ... again thanks for the memories
all the best ... Karl
but it is tied to the PCB manufactuers ..... so you can not print out copies of the HPGL or Excellon Drill data files ..... but alows you to place he order directly with the internet based supplier
Yeah, I have that, it turns out to be a lot more expensive then one might think. The reason why I'm looking for something else is a 44 pin package that will NOT fit into the predefined concepts used in the otherwise nice propreitary software.
"anyway ... again thanks for the memories"
your welcome.
Steve
If you're genuinely restricted by "the predefined concepts used in the otherwise nice propreitary software", there are alternatives. I'm currently using http://www.gpleda.org/, which is very capable and infinitely flexible. It's especially nice for making prototype boards yourself, because it can export to postscript with features like "drill-helper" (reduce all pad/via holes to a tiny size to center the drill), and "ps-bloat" (expand or contract all traces to compensate for laser printer or press-n-peel effects).
That said, Eagle is widely considered to be better integrated and easier to use. It's vastly more popular, and I would be very surprised if it can't produce good Gerbers or handle some strange package. Some years ago I contributed the package generator scripts for IPC-7351A surface mount parts to Eagle (aluminium electrolytic capacitors, chip resistors, capacitors and inductors, molded body inductors, capacitors and diodes, quad flat pack ICs including QFP, SQFP, TQFP, TSQFP and others, small outline diodes including SOD and others, small outline ICs including SO, SOP, SSOP, TSOP, TSSOP and others, small outline transistors including SOT, SC and others). They're all available on the ULP download page at the CadSoft web site. Is the package you need in there?
Here's a old 44-pin PLCC to DIP adaptor, created using Eagle and an HP-GL router:
http://external.weartronics.com/pcb_sheet.jpg
http://external.weartronics.com/fifo_trilayer.jpg
Protel/Altium DXP for me
same, Protel DXP
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave
Ditto... although I have used PCB Express and Eagle for quick items, like breakout boards for small micro-controllers when I am prototyping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psi
Many times, however, I will export to a PDF and work on it in Photoshop too, that way I can work in custom, detailed images. Or fix weirdness' in trace lines that happen sometimes, that I dont like.
-Max
Quote:
Originally Posted by mliptack
Standard suite of DXP is $3995. Just called.
Are you guys using demo?
Steve
Another alternative for Windows is http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/. It looks to have more features than Eagle (e.g. 3D viewer), and no board size limit. I haven't used it personally, but I know of some people who do.
What specific problem are you having with EAGLE? I generate gerbers with EAGLE all the time, and I've never once had a board shop complain.Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedgas
-Alex
Not sure which version it is, but my business partner has a copy of it from his workplace.Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedgas
Express PCB rejects my stuff as not showing a few layers.Quote:
Originally Posted by laseralex
Or the layers are repeated.
I guess I need a good script file for the gerber generation.
Steve
Try the CAM file from Sparkfun: http://www.sparkfun.com/tutorial/Eag...e-gerb274x.camQuote:
Originally Posted by mixedgas
Or try making your own -- if you play with it for 20 minutes you'll have learned everything you need to know. It's not actually as difficult as you'd expect!
The most common error is probably reversed lasers: the defult CAM file mirrors the bottom layers but most board houses are upset about that.
Finally, you can test your gerbers for free and get great instant feedback at http://www.freedfm.com.
If you still have trouble, PM me and I'll walk you through it. EAGLE is great software, once you get past the initial learning curve.
KiCad just rocks!!! Me and some friends we tryed a lot of different CAD softs, but it is clear this is the best one, relegate Eagle and others free soft to nothing. And fast and easy to use, well documented and you can find almost every components!Quote:
Originally Posted by weartronics
Uh.... This looks like a dead thread..... But....
I'm currently trying to learn Eagle CAD to design a very simple single layer PCB. Would anyone out there be willing to take a look at what I'm doing and offer some tips? I'm trying to get as much of it as I can so I can have a somewhat intelligent conversation.
I'm a noob when it comes to PCB fabrication!
I just want to make sure I have all of my ducks in a row before I try to submit this to a fab house.
James.
Eagle sucks.
I use EasyPC. Works well and not a bad price for a basic auto router.
Then the boards go to OSHPark.com. The absolute best boards for a good price.
I dont know eagle at all - I learned my craft in the mid 80s on a 286 running DOS something (prob -1.5) and a CAD package called Vutrax. These days I use Labcentre Proteus, and have done since about 1999. Its very good and I favour it mainly as I know it so well these days I can get the basics of a board down in no time. it does have an auto router but wheres the fun in that!
As an exercise at the end of a job I sometimes delete all the traces and let the auto router do its stuff - just for fun. Quite often there are odd traces that it cant route - that makes me smile :)
*edit* I did use Easy PC in a Dos version in the early to mid 90s and got on well with it, but when Proteus came along there was no comparisson for me.
Rob
Steve, I really like diptrace I gave up on eagle too. http://www.diptrace.com/
chad
Well, I did a "hand drawn" DXF file of what I want, to prove that it could be done in a single layer of copper.
So far, no matter how I set up the auto router, it can't figure it out.
So I guess I'm going to have to rout it myself in Eagle or something.
The project I'm working on isn't exactly top secret. Ultimately, I think I would be glad to share the design files as open source.
I want to print up a bunch of boards for the last revised version of the LaserBoy Correction Amp.
The schemos are already open source.
I would like to put it together as a kit to be able to sell the "Official" version.
I kinda' like the idea of using Eagle CAD because it has been pretty well accepted as the goto within the hobby electronics development community.
And there is a free version.
So if anyone would like to look at what I have so far and give me some tips, I would really appreciate it. Not only do I want to make the PCB, but I also want to learn how to do it!
James.
Altium here, expensive but worth it.
http://www.altium.com/
I tried Eagle a few times out of interest and it drove me mad.
As a hobbiest in the 70's I used a Dalo resist pen. In the 80's I progressed to the cutting edge tape method. Boy I am glad computers took over...
if you want it to be free (as in beer) continue using eagle, but use the cam post processor for your vendor (sparkfun has a good one for batchbcb that works well for other companies)
if you want it to be Free (as in speech), use KiCad, which in my opinion is better than eagle (but has a much smaller following and is not as well supported)
if you want it to work use Altium (good for anything up to and including small computers), or if you really want to go big get Mentor Graphics (really only necessary if you are doing LARGE designs).
Hey James,
I use Eagle quite a bit. I'm you've got everything you need, as a board house will notify you if something doesn't look right to them.
Eagle is very flexible if you learn to use it well. There are lots of good tips and tricks one should be able to use if they want to make complex boards with multiple layers.
Best thing is, you can make a perfect custom footprint in just a few minutes - so every single part you want to use can be a part of the board.
I'm willing to take a look at your GERBERs or your .brd and .sch files if you have them. Auto-route is nice, but I prefer to do layout manually. Its worth putting good thought into the layout, and investing the time to decide if its just "right" or not. So there's nothing wrong with going one component at a time...
Geez... That brings back some OLD memories of past endeavors myself. Did wire-wrap too - how sick is that? How many of the young folks on the forum know what fun they missed out on? O_oQuote:
Originally Posted by dnar
Greg
Thanks everyone for the comments.
(I think) I had a breakthrough today. I got the schemo part sorted out nicely and once I got all the parts on the board in just the right places, I actually figured out how to manually rout.
I still need to figure out a lot more stuff about how to put text in the silk screen layer and how to put mounting holes in the board.
I have no problem sharing the .sch and the .brd files for some other eyeballs to go over. I think that's probably a good idea!
I've already built it up and torn it down about four or five times now..... So one more time is no big deal.
I'll keep you posted.
I remember when I was just a kid, I used a brush-on paint resist and acid to make a board that was for an electric guitar fuzz box.
I think if you want to just make one or two projects, it's probably easier to just use copper clad proto-boards.
I've certainly made quite a few LaserBoy Correction Amps that way!
James. :)
James -
I have been thinking about doing the same board in Eagle, so if I get to it, perhaps we can compare notes. I have already done a 6 way DMX opto isolated driver, but it's been a while, so I get to relearn the package . . .
- Tim
OK. Here's what I have so far.
Check it out and let me know!
I would like to make a bunch of these, so it would probably be cheaper to buy them from me than it would be to make just one or two for yourself.
I plan to sell kits with all the parts, naked boards, naked boards with the DC/DC converter and finished boards (plus modified USB sound devices).
If you would, please check this out and offer some suggestions for fixing this up for fabrication.
I need to know how to size the holes and put text into the silk screen layer.
Thanks in advance.
The attachment is for Eagle Cad!
James. :)
Save yourself a lot of problems with the default Eagle files and use the free Sparkfun tutorials. Then use the Sparkfun provided render files for rendering the Gerber and Excelon drill files. Then check ALL the layers with a Gerber viewer and with the DFM pre-check available from a few board vendors.
Also check that the trace widths are set to something more reasonable by hand, for ALL the hand laid traces, and any of the machine laid traces that you forgot to set the sizes on, prior to auto-route. The default traces in Eagle are very thin, thin enough to cause problems with some board vendors, or if you run any substantial current through them. Pay for the solder masks when you have the boards ran, its not worth running without them to save a few bucks. Watch for short jumper traces between main traces and through holes, it has a habit of making those hard to see in the viewer. Zoom In.
Buy the "Adult" version of Eagle and print the boards to check them with actual parts. Especially if you have created your own components. Watch for correct mirroring in the files you send out. Hopefully the folks who bought Eagle three years ago put paid the printing issue in the free version.
While I'm sure some of this has been fixed lately, some versions of Eagle and the included files default out to some weird stuff. I stick to a older version.
The above comes from a expensive lessons learned session a few years ago.
Sound card dacs need to die, but I'd hate to see you hit the thin trace problem with any customers.
Steve
There is just no good reason to make comments like this, Steve.Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedgas
The LaserBoy DAC has a well established use and user base.
This board will serve the purpose of both internal PCI and external USB devices.
James.
The last I used Eagle, I paid nothing and used no external software other than a Gerber viewer to verify and had zero issues. I'm not sure what you did, but it does not match my experience, and frankly, of all the free/low cost PCB sw I tried, Eagle seemed to be the best, and was also not crippled by being WhinDuhs based.Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedgas
I have not tried a recent build yet, but still have the old one if they have regressed or gotten greedy.
James - I'll load up your files and look as soon as I can. Regarding cost, I don't think I would be out much more than $25 each for these doing my own, so not sure what you were going to price at, but with the suppliers I have, I doubt anything other than the dc/dc conv. would even get close to a buck, and resistors and such cost me $.07 as I recall . . . .
- Tim
Don't get me wrong, Eagle is awesome, but if you don't render it's output correctly, you get problems with the board house. I'm not the only one to have that issue by a long shot. Which is why Sparkfun offers the corrected files.
If you want to suffer, try Express PCB's free CAD. Then rip up your design for a layout change. That is very painful.
Steve
I know I can get parts on eBay for pretty cheap. I would price my kits to make it worth my time to pack it in a cardboard box and mail it to someone. Eventually, I'd like to sell enough to pay for all the boards I make so I would have money to make more. I'd like to have some in stock all the time. Once I start selling them, I don't want to be out and have to make people wait. I know I don't like to wait!
@tadawson, Thanks for taking a look at the files. Your profile says you're into pro audio. Are you into speaker design?
James.
James -
I have dabbled with building some cabinets in the past, but fell into a really sweet four way/tri-amped EAW system, and have never looked back . . . powered with about 12KW of Crest Professional, it's sweet!
Oh, and I have a local parts vendor here that I can go pick pretty much everything needed out of their bins in pretty much any quantity desired - no need to order . . .
And what version of Eagle did you do these in? I'm still at 5.12, and it's refusing to open your files - sez "invalid data" . . . and the newer stuff was compiled with later C libs, and won't run . . .
Grrr . . . bonehead software distro!
- Tim
Really ??? I just got the most current offering from the source of Eagle CAD.
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/download-eagle/?language=en
Some time ago, I put together a tri-amped system for home stereo listening.
http://akrobiz.com/speakers/new/
(16) 8 inch woofers, (72) full-range TV speakers, (98) tweeters in the pair. -3dB at about 18Hz.
Years before I ever even thought about laser display or using a sound card to do it, I used a sound card to play math generated test tones through a power amp into a resister in series with a reactive component (woofer, inductor, capacitor, crossover network, etc...) and record the signal right off the terminals of the device to measure freq. vs. voltage (to calculate impedance). I used this to measure all kinds of things including a woofer's T/S parameters and box effects (port freq.)
There are no passive crossover parts inside these speakers, But I have made quite a few multi-way systems that are driven by a single power amp channel.
James.
Just throwin it in here, but Altium freakin rocks :D
It looks like any Eagle 6.0 or abobe was linked to glibc 2.9 - I'm at 2.8 . . . I may have to suppress the gag reflex and load it up on Winblowz . .
- Tim
Oh dear!
Why not just update your GCC libs?
You know multiple versions can co-exist on the same system. Right?
You could also try running it from within a recent bootable "live" CD or DVD Linux distro.
When you get it up and going, let me know. I tweaked the design just a tad. Actually, I could start all over with the board part and do a slightly better job, now that I see what it looks like.
James. :)
I loaded up on another Linux box cleanly . . . and yes, while you can run two lib versions, that also doubles shared lib memory utilization, and drags you down . . . and some things are not clean after outright upgrades (not to mention, not sure if the newer libs will even compile), so not sure it's worth it, since Eagle 5.x still meets my needs . . .
Having said that, looks pretty good . . . I usually put labels in the tnames layer, not the trace layer where yours are, but that is a nuance. I can't either recall correct operation of the CAM procesor (or it has changed) to output a gerber file that I can view to verify (yet . . . ) but still working on it. I also typically use the component names layer, not values. Oh, and the CAM processor is griping that the drill layer was not selected, which may cause you to get an undrilled board . . . not much of any reason to turn off the default layers, at least as I see it.
- Tim
Like I said, I'm a noob at PCB fab!
Would you like to Skype some time?
I'm james_laserboy.
I'd like to learn how to do this right and collect all the right software to do it.
James.
I currently use eagle myself.
I love it myself because it's so widely used/supported and there is a big community following for it too I believe *makemagazine refers to it a lot and jeremy blum has some straightforward tutorials on how to get started*..
I have yet to come to a gerber creation issue.
Eagle for most things (75% of the time), Altium if I am working on a design with BGA components and/or if I need really tight integration with the mechanical design. There are things I really love and REALLY hate about both packages.
I have an ancient copy of GerbTool which I swear by (and use LTspice to make my schematics). I have seen that RS Components sell a DesignSpark or some such, a suite of electronics design tools aimed at low cost support for British industry. Anyone use it? If so, how is it?
(I once bought a copy of Seetrax Ranger, and have seen Eagle's output often. I'm dead fussy about what I use, so most stuff annoys me. :) But I'm open to new ideas, especially if I do not have to change from my tiny, fast, very customised W98 to do it).
Well, I've been at it for a while and I got a lot of input from fab fav...
Thanks Chris!
I'd have to say that Eagle is pretty nice and useful for being totally free.
I guess it's like a lot of apps. Once you get how it represents and what the caveats are all about, it lets you get the job done.
You need to learn about how Eagle fits into the real world with board spec limits (dru checks) and how (cam process) to generate gerber files.
A big part of this is to get a non related gerber file viewer (gerbv) to see what you actually have before you send it anywhere to be made.
James.
... if you need bigger PCB's than possible with the free Eagle version, you can use Target - it's only limited in pin-counts (AFIK 250 pins), one drawing sheet and two copper sides:
http://server.ibfriedrich.com/wiki/i...itle=Main_Page
Viktor
Success!
Works great!
http://laserboy.org/forum/index.php?...;topicseen#new
James.
I used Altium Designer for all our of laser control boards, I just find it much less maddening to use than EAGLE.
The downside of course is that it is pricey.
I guess I can't do any comparison of one circuit CAD to anther because all I have ever used is Eagle CAD.
But, once I got the hang of it, I thought it was really easy to use.
It seems like just about every fab house is ready to go with Gerber files made from Eagle CAD.
What is it that people don't like about Eagle CAD?
James.
Very Nice Looking Boards!
Quote:
Originally Posted by james
Thanks Chris.
You were a huge help with the Eagle CAD and stuff!
James.
I am going into the hospital on 9/11/13 for a total left hip replacement. This will be the third one on the left. I have already had three hip replacements on my right! So I will be out of the game for about a week or so. But I will try to get back to it ASAP!
I'm going to need something to keep me busy for a while while I get back on my feet (literally).
I have a limited number of these new boards, so PM me if you are interested in getting one, either in a kit or a completed LaserBoy DAC.
Reserve yours now. Get your name on the list!
James. :)
Wow. Good luck. I thought those things were meant to stick, my grand-dad only had one.. Hopefully arthritis won't be fast enough to put me through it. Does run in my family though.