Some FREE iShow Frames

[buffo]

isnt that EXACTLY what I said?

You said most shows weren't made for Pangolin. By that, I assumed you meant the Pangolin hardware. As in, the shows weren't originally made using Pangolin hardware.

Were you trying to say that they weren't made for Pangolin, the company? As in, made expressly to give to Bill? If that's the case, then I agree with you.

But that doesn't mean anything. Any content that wasn't expressly created just for Pangolin (the company) had to be purchased (or licensed) by Bill after it was created. And over the years, Bill has licensed a *lot* of content to use with his products.

According to those license agreements, Pangolin users can't pirate those frames. They can use them, they can even share them with other Pangolin users, but they can't give or sell them to Mamba Black users, for example. That's pretty standard copyright law there...

If you own Mamba Black and you want those frames, you'll need to go to the original creator and buy your own license. And in some cases, Bill has an exclusive license. Then again, if you're looking to get the entire collection, you'd be better off buying an LD-2000. It's cheaper than securing the rights to all those frames.

I deleted the frames and shows directory on my main pangolin show making box after reading all this hooplah... if I intend to make shows for $$$ I don't want to feel the wrath of bill after accidentally including a frame lol

Did you even read the copyright notice that came with your LD-2000 before you deleted those files? If you did, you certainly missed a lot.

You have every right to create shows for money using the frames that came with your system. You can charge people to view your shows. You can even sell copies of your shows to other Pangolin users. All of this is within your rights as a Pangolin owner, and is clearly spelled out in the copyright notice.

What you *can't* do is sell or share those frame files with non-Pangolin owners. That's all.

Seriously - you need to re-read that copyright notice. Better yet, you might want to call Bill on the phone and talk to him about this issue, because you've got some very weird ideas - both about what he said and about what your rights are.

its a shame that they give you all that content and then restrict its use so heavily...

Funny - I can think of several companies that don't find the copyright notice very restrictive at all. Mike Dunn has certainly made a decent living for himself.

its like if all of the clipart that came with office could only be printed and given to other licensed users of microsoft office...

It is *nothing* like that. Printing a document in MS Word is like running a laser show on your projector. And there aren't *any* restrictions on that. You can display any of the frames that come with Pangolin any time you want.

What you *can't* do is make a copy of the files and give them to someone who isn't a Pangolin user. (Piracy)

To fix your analogy, it's as if Microsoft included a bunch of free clip-art in a proprietary format that could only be used by MS Office, and then they had a copyright policy that prohibited you from pirating those frames and giving them to someone who didn't buy a copy of Office. (Oh wait, Microsoft actually has this policy, don't they...)

This is *exactly* what Pangolin did with the secure frame file format. It's copyright protection. I really don't see why you're so eager to bash them about it. I think you ought to talk to Bill about this, because you're all worked up over something that doesn't make any sense.

Gary:

Calling artwork a "manufactured product" is a bit of a stretch, considering that art is specifically listed under the doctrine of fair use. Filing for a "Merchandise License" for a work of art (or satire) is ludicrous. Furthermore, it's clear from reading the rest of that paragraph (and the rest of VW's website) that they are talking about tangible goods that carry the logo.

The *only* intangible example they list is when using the VW logo on a website, where it's clear that such a design could be mis-interpreted as a link or other identifier suggesting that your site is connected with theirs.

Even if I didn't understand the fair use doctrine, just reading through the terms of use on the VW website, I can't see where the "logo" show that comes with Pangolin could ever be deemed to be in violation of their Trademark usage guide.

Adam

[flecom]

You said most shows weren't made for Pangolin. By that, I assumed you meant the Pangolin hardware. As in, the shows weren't originally made using Pangolin hardware.

Were you trying to say that they weren't made for Pangolin, the company? As in, made expressly to give to Bill? If that's the case, then I agree with you.

ya thats what I meant, obviously all the shows that came with pangolin were made for pangolin hardware duh

Did you even read the copyright notice that came with your LD-2000 before you deleted those files? If you did, you certainly missed a lot.

...

What you *can't* do is sell or share those frame files with non-Pangolin owners. That's all.

exactly, and I don't like that restriction... because I would want to make my shows available in the most formats possible... and a lot of planetariums still run ADAT machines

What you *can't* do is make a copy of the files and give them to someone who isn't a Pangolin user. (Piracy)

To fix your analogy, it's as if Microsoft included a bunch of free clip-art in a proprietary format that could only be used by MS Office, and then they had a copyright policy that prohibited you from pirating those frames and giving them to someone who didn't buy a copy of Office. (Oh wait, Microsoft actually has this policy, don't they...)

so then why can I email a word document with micorosft clipart to someone and have them open it in google docs? or open office?

by your logic that would be piracy

[White-Light]

exactly, and I don't like that restriction... because I would want to make my shows available in the most formats possible... and a lot of planetariums still run ADAT machines

No-one is going to produce items for use with their software and then let you use them with someone else's. Its the cues as much as the programme that make the software attractive to the purchaser so no company is going to give a general licence that allows their cues to be used with everyone else's product. Otherwise you could eg buy Laserboy at $50 instead of LD at $1,000 and still have all of the same content. You'd save $950 but that would be money lost to Pangolin. The same applies to every other company.

I don't know of any company that produces content and allows it to be used in others software packages.

In fact to mention another recently moentioned laser package, Fiesta, Fiesta cues are also in their own proprietory format presumably to prevent copying.

I understand where you are coming from with planetariums and that probably is a somewhat unique situation in that you may not be able to bring in your own Pangolin controller to control the planetariums lasers, but if you really need to distribute shows using ADAT then obviously you need to be creating shows in whatever software package creates shows for ADAT.

so then why can I email a word document with micorosft clipart to someone and have them open it in google docs? or open office?

by your logic that would be piracy

Because you're still using it within the terms of the licence, ie you're allowed to use it in your emails to other people. Thats different to you making it available for others to use in their non Microsoft generated emails. Thats essentially what you'd be doing with the shows. You'd be allowing persons without Pangolin software to use those frames in their shows using non Pangolin software rather than buying Pangolin themselves.

If you eg. owned Open Office and imported all of Microsoft's content into OO to use in it in your emails and docs produced using OO, then I'm betting if Bill Gates got a sniff of it, his Lawyers would be breaking down your door faster than a curry shifts a toilet blockage!

[masterpj]

This will be my last reply to this topic I think

Please don't worry about free stuff.

I will be making shows for pangolin.
But also will be making some shows especially for free use.

But please promise me you won't attempt to convert any pangolin shows or frames and then spread them for use with non-pangolin hardware.

I do not work at pangolin but I respect them, that's why I'm asking this from you

Thanks
And merry christmass and a happy new year

[Laser Wizardry]

" 15 characters"

[JohnYayas]

Gary:

Calling artwork a "manufactured product" is a bit of a stretch, considering that art is specifically listed under the doctrine of fair use. Filing for a "Merchandise License" for a work of art (or satire) is ludicrous. Furthermore, it's clear from reading the rest of that paragraph (and the rest of VW's website) that they are talking about tangible goods that carry the logo.

The *only* intangible example they list is when using the VW logo on a website, where it's clear that such a design could be mis-interpreted as a link or other identifier suggesting that your site is connected with theirs.

Even if I didn't understand the fair use doctrine, just reading through the terms of use on the VW website, I can't see where the "logo" show that comes with Pangolin could ever be deemed to be in violation of their Trademark usage guide.

Adam

I am not sure where you are coming up with this. IBM is another example and I'll link to their page that describe use of their content and fair use. An IBM ilda frame most definitely does not fit into their definition of fair use:
http://www.ibm.com/legal/us/en/copyt...html#section_2

I quote:

"Fair use of IBM trademarks
"Fair use" of IBM trademarks, that is, use by a third party without express permission or license, is limited to text-only references to IBM trademarks such as product and service names, and excludes IBM logos.
In such references, you must be truthful, must not disparage IBM, and must not mislead the public. You must be clear and accurate as to the nature of the relationship between IBM and your company, its products, and its services.
Following are two common types of fair use:

1. When you are specifically referring to IBM products. For example... IBM WebSphere software is a middleware platform.
2. When you are indicating that an IBM product is compatible with another product. For Examples: a) XYZ is compatible with IBM WebSphere software products; b) XYZ for IBM Lotus Notes."

[flecom]

then obviously you need to be creating shows in whatever software package creates shows for ADAT.

so like... um... pangolin?

Because you're still using it within the terms of the licence, ie you're allowed to use it in your emails to other people. Thats different to you making it available for others to use in their non Microsoft generated emails. Thats essentially what you'd be doing with the shows. You'd be allowing persons without Pangolin software to use those frames in their shows using non Pangolin software rather than buying Pangolin themselves.

If you eg. owned Open Office and imported all of Microsoft's content into OO to use in it in your emails and docs produced using OO, then I'm betting if Bill Gates got a sniff of it, his Lawyers would be breaking down your door faster than a curry shifts a toilet blockage!

ya but I cant give an ADAT to a planetarium to playback either... unless they own a pangolin system...

if I buy Apple Final Cut I can use the stock footage it includes in my videos and distribute them to whoever I like... the end user does not have to own Final Cut... same thing for the stock footage that comes with adobe premiere and so on

if I make a flier for someone in microsoft publisher with microsoft clipart I can give it to whoever I like if they own or do not own microsoft publisher...

[White-Light]

so like... um... pangolin?

Well from what your complaint seems to be Pangolin obviously doesn't output in a format that can be played back by the planetariums systems using ADAT.

ya but I cant give an ADAT to a planetarium to playback either... unless they own a pangolin system...

..and your complaint is? Someone can't give me Fiesta frames / shows unless I own a Fiesta system.

If your frames were open source then I could see your complaint but obviously Pangolin aren't going to give away $1,000's of dollars worth of licensed shows they've paid for, for people to play on other systems. Otherwise why would people buy Pangolin? You'd just buy the cheapest Soundcard DAC system out there and enjoy all of Pangolin's productions for free leaving the complex production to those who spent the thousands. Sounds a bit like someone wanting a free ride.

if I buy Apple Final Cut I can use the stock footage it includes in my videos and distribute them to whoever I like... the end user does not have to own Final Cut... same thing for the stock footage that comes with adobe premiere and so on

Well its different with films because the Apple Final Cut programme isn't a display programme but a creation programme. If you were to use the stock footage to create content in another programme then Apple would certainly object.

Laser Display Software is exactly that. Its primary purpose is to display shows and its creation abilities are purely ancillary to that purpose. Its value lies in its display ability not its creation ability. Many users never create their own content.

if I make a flier for someone in microsoft publisher with microsoft clipart I can give it to whoever I like if they own or do not own microsoft publisher...

If you give fliers to someone else to distribute, they're still your fliers and promoting your business.

If you give a Pangolin Show for someone else to use commercially, then you're giving them the content to promote their business.

The 1st one is a permitted use. The second is a breach of the licensing agreement and unlawful distribution.

[Dr Laser]

Sorry Guys I have to post this. Someone posted copyrighted material. Someone complained. So they took it down. All good. Big deal. Stop making a drama theater here.

[JohnYayas]

We're just having a discussion. No need to mock us.