Thanks to Rob Stanwax - Laserwave UK

[buffo]

its just that it irretates me that its always about wanting the bargain price and still want the have all the support in the world. It has to go both ways.

No, it doesn't have to go both ways. There are lots of people here who offer their support for free. There are also people here who sell products at razor-thin margins specifically because they want to help people get started in the hobby.

Take a look at DZ's break-out board and ask yourself if you could afford to hand-assemble those and sell them for just $12. Or better yet, what about the color board for $50? Do you think you could make any money at that price after you paid for the boards, the components, and completed over 500 solder joints by hand? But David did it anyway, and sold a lot of them - making many hobbyists very happy.

What you are forgetting is that you build customer loyalty by offering exceptional service to everyone - even those who didn't buy from you in the first place. Over time, they will reward you with their future business.

I will invest 200 percent service and deliver 100 percent quality products to anyone who wants to invest in me. The only difference is that im transparant and honest about it.

Yeah, it seems very transparent to me. You are only willing to help people who buy from you. Unfortunately, that's nothing to be proud of. All successful businesses do that already.

Getting the picture?

Yes. Yes I am. And I'm not impressed in the least. What do you want, a cookie?

Your behavior towards DJLorenz is petty, childish, and absolutely *not* in the best interests of furthering the hobbyist community. Sounds to me like he made the right choice by going with Rob (Stanwax).

Adam

[edison]

I never met anyone who would help me for nothing. If they help you they want something in return in the end. Also lorenzo and i sorted out the problem. Normally he would get a kit but he mentioned that he had another interest from a friend in a case and because he was short in time i decided to build his case because he is willing to help me. Als i have had a chad with Rob about this and he didn,t know that i made lorenzo an offer.

I have talked with Martin pelosh from Kvant and do you think he will lower his prices to have small margens to help a fewe hobbyists? I will quote him:

Your just hobbyists and are not realy important to us.Why? because we dont buy 200 lasers per month thats why. But i can understand because he has to make a living too.......


Dz desigend the board for himself and helped this way to help other. Have a look at the groupbuy before you judge..........

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...light=groupbuy

But with the money i could place another order for 100 dichromounts to help others including Rob Stanwax.

I dont believe that people are coming back to you when you helped them with their hobby. When someone is comes back to you is only because your cheaper then others.

Hobbybob bought stuff from me several times and he never bargained. He knows that i,m developing stuff with his money to help him the next time.

Just for the record i develop things and sell them to other hobbyist to fund the next item that i,m working. Also i like teaming up with other laserist to buy in groups to get things cheaper manufactured. That way you help eachother to get lower prices.

As a Pl member i will help anyone who has interest in lasers if there buying from me or not. Most customers that i have buy stuff because i will sell it cheap to help them but as soon as they can get it cheaper they will go some place else. When they have al the parts then i dont understand why i should help them to build them a projector. But there are two kind of customers, the ones that shop arround and the ones that understand that it will goes both ways. I prefer the last

[buffo]

I never met anyone who would help me for nothing.

Then evidently you haven't met anyone here on PL. Personally, I've met several DOZEN people (in person) who are more than willing to help people out for free. Also, I've helped several members for free myself, and will continue to do so.

Not everyone is in this gig just for the money. But you appear to be far more motivated by profit.

I have talked with Martin pelosh from Kvant and do you think he will lower his prices to have small margens to help a fewe hobbyists? I will quote him:

Your just hobbyists and are not realy important to us.Why? because we dont buy 200 lasers per month thats why. But i can understand because he has to make a living too.......

Martin is in the business solely to make money. And he willfully chooses to ignore the hobbyist market, because he thinks he can't make it pay. Personally, I find him to be aloof. And if you want to be like him, that's your prerogative, but you need to be ready for the inevitable reaction from the community here. There are other companies who are not so concerned about profits or sales volume, and those are the companies that I (and many other hobbyists) will deal with.

In fact, even industry leaders have found that it often pays to reach out to the hobbyist community to build goodwill. Why do you think Bill Benner of Pangolin has attended so many laser enthusiast's meetings here in the US? According to Martin's philosophy, this is wasted effort on Bill's part, yet he still does it. Also, Dave and Adrian have donated a few thousand dollars worth of hardware to the SELEM raffles over the years. Why would they do this, if the hobbyist community "isn't important", as Martin claims?

Martin has chosen to alienate himself from the hobbyist community, because he feels that it's not worth his time. Yet other companies have shown that it *can* be worth their time to work with the hobbyists. Whether you chose to follow their example or Martin's is your call, but the choice you make will tell us a lot about where your loyalties are.

Dz desigend the board for himself

Wrong. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. I was in constant contact with David while he was working on this project, so I know what his intentions were. He originally designed the *circuit* for himself, but he had *always* intended to share it with the group.

More importantly, he had a breadboard version running for *weeks* before he laid out the custom board. So there was no need for him to design a custom board and have it etched if he only needed one for himself. Then he agreed to spend almost 2 hours on each board laboriously hand-soldering all the components in place. And after all that, his profit was around $8 per board.

Clearly, he wasn't in it for the money. The pitiful profit he made on those boards was *not* the reason they were sold. He wanted people to be able to improve their projectors. And that's the main reason he sold them. Period. Just because you can't fathom someone being so altruistic doesn't mean that there aren't people out there who are, in fact, in it solely for the good of the group.

Have a look at the groupbuy before you judge.

I'm well aware of your group buy thread. But the sentiment in that thread is not supported by your statements above where you make it clear that you won't help people who don't buy from you.

I dont believe that people are coming back to you when you helped them with their hobby. When someone is comes back to you is only because your cheaper then others.

At first, yes. But eventually, people realize that there is more than just price involved. It might take a couple cycles, but in the long run, the company that provides superior service to everyone is the one that will be more successful.

Adam

[edison]

Bill is a smart man he knows that there are alot of hobbyist that are willing to test things but in the end he has the bennefits of that. Of course it works both ways and bill is a gentleman who gave us the FB3. But the fb3 is pangolin so eventually most laserist will take the next step and go for LD2000. Because when hobbyist find a way to make a living out of it most of them will choose pangolin because they already using it. Second if i develop something for my hobby i will develop it with the same quality like a company like Kvant. My case is an example of that. The design of the case was my idea and several members responded positive on the design and thats why i decided to do a groupbuy. If you think that i,m in the bussiness for making money you,re right but only the goal is to do this for one day in the week.
Also martin sells parts to build projectors on his website so he doesn,t allienate himself.
The development of the case for example cost about 1500 euro. I,m developing a big red with good beamspecs to get better reds for a reasonable price. I need money for the development so if you want to fund it for free by all means buffo. But i have a case to use for my projectors so the next step is the red.
My first intensions is always to help SRS, MCcarrot, HobbyBOB and a few others that believe in me. They also design things to help others. MCCarrot and SRS dont develop things to do this for free either. The goal is to make progress in development of the laserhobby and that cost money. I,m one of the persons that is transparant about that i need PL members their money to develop things. When i have the red ready i will share it with hobbybob, Mccarrot , and SRS for the manufacturing costs. For the rest i will charge differently but way cheaper to get everyone started then the bigger companies.




Buffo,
Could you paypal me 1500 euro to fund the development of the 1.6 watt of red with good specs then you will get the first one

[mophead]

Normally a company (or an individual) bears the cost of design/prototype in house. Do you think Michelin asks folks for money to develop their tires that folks *might* buy?

Most everyone I have met IRL in this community do it for the love of lasers and their fellow laser hobbyists. Look at the people that do it for a living yet make little to nothing for their time to us hobbyist.

Take Steve for instance: He repaired my Lexel 95 at SELEM last year. Free. Free as in beer. Had that been a service call from a Lexel tech, it probably would have been at least $1000. Not to mention what he taught us all in the process.

Take DSLI_jon for instance. He spends many hours here helping people. Most consultants would charge $100+/hour for advice.

Take DZ for instance: at $8 dollars/board he is going broke if he figured his time. (He gave me a board at the first LEM I attended. He gave it to *help me* with only a thank you as payment).

If you want a different angle, look at me: I do not have a lot of experience in this hobby but i soak up information like a sponge. I can't help others with in-depth projects, but I did feed 30 folks out of my pocket at the last SELEM. I *did not* charge a price-per-plate then get upset when people didn't buy my BBQ.

Edison, If you are in it for the money, you're already behind in the game.

[pimm87]

I think the idea of (this) forum, is that people can share their knowledge. With people I mean everybody. Hobbyists, Professionals and veterans.

[buffo]

Bill is a smart man he knows that there are alot of hobbyist that are willing to test things but in the end he has the benefits of that.

WHAT? Are you serious? So you think Bill attends Laser Enthusiast's Meetings so he can have access to a bunch of beta-testers?

You truly have no clue what you're talking about. That is absolutely not why Bill goes to these events.

If you think that i,m in the bussiness for making money you,re right but only the goal is to do this for one day in the week.

And that is the fundamental point that you keep missing. You have a day job, but at night (or "one day in the week") you expect to be able to make money off the hobbyist crowd here on PL. And you wonder why people who do this sort of thing for free are getting prickly about your attitude...

The development of the case for example cost about 1500 euro.

Then you got ripped off. It doesn't cost 1500 euro to design a case. Google sketch-up is free, and most people here are willing to donate their time to do the designing. Pad2pad software (for designing any custom boards for ILDA breakout, shutter drivers, or other electronics) is also free.

You'll note that DZ didn't charge anyone for the time it took him to design, build, test, and tweak his shutter driver, or his color board, or any of the other products he sells. You might also be interested to know that Bill Benner consulted on the color board project FOR FREE. Why? Because he's a cool guy, that's why.

I,m developing a big red with good beamspecs to get better reds for a reasonable price. I need money for the development so if you want to fund it for free by all means buffo.

What makes you think I have the funds (let alone the desire) to fund one of your projects? For that matter, does anyone else here on PL ever ask for assistance in funding a start-up project? What makes you so special?

Oh, that's right. You want to be able to make money off the community "one day a week".

MCCarrot and SRS dont develop things to do this for free either.

Are they asking for development costs up front like you are?

LaserMan 532 developed a whole range of products for the hobbyist. I imagine he spent a lot of his time at the mill, experimenting with different designs. He didn't ask anyone to fund his efforts though, and he shared pictures with everyone once he had the products finished. If you wanted, you didn't have to buy them from him - you could simply copy his design and build it yourself. But lots of people bought from him anyway.

Could you paypal me 1500 euro to fund the development of the 1.6 watt of red with good specs then you will get the first one

If circumstances were different, I might have been interested. I actually did this last year with another project, except that *I* approached another member (MechEng3) and asked him if he could build something for me. It was the 660 nm quad red design that he came up with. It was far cheaper, though admittedly it only makes about 750 mw.

But I trust Mike implicitly. Likewise, DZ is currently building another project for me, and I had no problem paying for it up front, because I also trust him implicitly. In both cases, however, *I* was the one who asked for it, not the other way around.

I don't think I trust you enough to send you 1500 euros. That may sting, but it's the truth.

Adam

[edison]

If can help someone with my skills then i wont charge anything. Steve and dsli_jon offered their skills
i would do the same without hesitation.

In fact i,m building the two cases for lorenzo but normally he would recieve a kit.
I spend about 8 hours to build the cases without scratching them to help him to be in time for his shows without any charge.
I have seen alot of quad designs designed by members and there are a few that really work. But i have seen no designplans at the server of PL to repoduce this quads to help others members to a good quad. I dont think anyone at PL goin to spend 1500 euro,s to help others to good red and then share the design for free. Thats why i sell things to fund the development of new things. Companies do the same they sell things to fund develop new things. But if someone choose to buy it else where for less money and they come back for help then i find it hard to help them as a customer. Since i,m a hobbyist also i help people that in need of parts but i wont give them away. They have to buy them unless i had the parts for free. I think thats hounest. If someone has a broke car and i can fix it then i wont repair it for free. however i will charge half of the costs of the garage. That way i help them more then enough because they save half the money what they normally need to spend. Its a way of protecting yourself to other who want to use you. As soon if they hear i wil charge a certain amount then suddenly they go some where else

[QUAZAR]

Anyway.......................

Thanks to Rob for excellent service and more importantly super prompt action to replace a missing part.

Cheers Rob.

[norty303]

I expect those single 445 modules are flying out like hotcakes