660nm LOC diodes used on some dancers

[aijii]

you can't dance for shit, lol at falling off the podium. must have got yourself in the eye.

my missus says you have a hot body btw. must work out!

[mccarrot]

hey i just found some footage of laserman pointing green lasers into crowds..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRNXXtaS0IU

That guy is a terrorist with lasers trying to blind the audiance, where are the 9-11 movies.

[mccarrot]

2. I do not want to point fingers at Andy or anybody. I want to know what makes something safe, that appears unsafe in a video. Is that an unfair question to ask?

Define save...

Do not say MPE because scanning below MPE is just not acceptable for customers in europe, even ILDA agrees with this. (see documentation of Greg Makhov) thats why they have a 10xMPE proposal

[Phredy1]

Define save...

Do not say MPE because scanning below MPE is just not acceptable for customers in europe, even ILDA agrees with this. (see documentation of Greg Makhov) thats why they have a 10xMPE proposal

Safe = zero chance of any eye damage

[mccarrot]

Safe = zero chance of any eye damage

So tell where to find a safe amusement park. (zero chance of injury)

Or a club with a safe audio system (level below 85dB)

or a safe car (zero chance of getting a collision)

You get the point

Facts:

Most shows in europe are over MPE, some of them way over MPE (not good )

Audiance scanning lasershows:
2.5 reported injuries per decade
Due to underreporting, could be 25 injuries per decade
Worldwide

US ONLY! amusement park rides:
72,000 reported injuries per decade
44 deaths
Just one country

so if you want to be safe stop driving you car, never ever go to an amusement park, stop smoking, never go to club with a sound system below 85db (if you can find any)

please read trough this document to learn about risk assessment:
http://www.laserist.org/files/audien...iew_latest.pdf

and if you are too lazy there is a nice powerpoint:
http://www.laserist.org/files/Scanni...s_2009-09a.ppt



Also people even experienced people like Pat makes tells the story you will get instant blind when a 100mW-200mW laserbeam hits the eye, this is not true, maybe with a laserscope but not with a 100mW laser.
Sure you can (and will) get noticeable eye damage but there is still a huge difference between blind and noticeable eye damage (not saying this is acceptable)

So even if a 200mW laser would hit the eye and give noticeable eye damge it most probably would not affect daily life. (still not saying its acceptable, just trying to explain)

[Laserman532]

mccarrot says - "Sure you can (and will) get noticeable eye damage but there is still a huge difference between blind and noticeable eye damage (not saying this is acceptable)"

laserman532 - slowly shakes his head back and forth. (while wearing spandex)

newly discovered fact - unicorn glitter makes everything all good

[Phredy1]

So tell where to find a safe amusement park. (zero chance of injury)

Or a club with a safe audio system (level below 85dB)

or a safe car (zero chance of getting a collision)

You get the point

I got the point before you explained cars, audio and amusement parks. I know what you mean, and I'm sure you know what I meant - without me writing a book on the subject.

First thing: you asked me not to use MPE, so I didn't. Then you replied with MPE statements blah blah. Either we both don't use MPE or we both can. Make this debate fair.

As brief as I can make my explanation: The video shows obvious lasers being shined into the audience. That is a fact. Someone (you, Andy or anyone) needs to explain with some kind of factual evidence how this was done with a 'minimal' risk of doing eye damage.

The video appears to look very questionable - which is why we are having this debate. I will grant you that nothing in life is without risk. That does not mean that you design something cool, and then just hope for the best as far as safety goes.

Those lasers are capable of 200mW or better. No one has denied that fact to this point. I think anyone would say shining multiple 200mW lasers into the audience would be creating a risk of eye damage.

IMO, the very first thing anyone creating a laser show should consider is making a safe show. I.E. to the best of their knowledge they have taken all factors into consideration and done the best they can to keep the risk of eye damage to as close to zero as possible. Granted you cannot take every possibility into consideration - a meteor could come out of the sky, crash through the roof and land on top of a laser projector knocking it so the beams go into the crowd....

This debate reminds me of BP's spin a few weeks ago "Yes we have a leak, but everything is ok. Nothing to worry about. Trust us, we have everything under control".

Just give us the facts and then we have a real debate. Explain how 660nm lasers are shined into the audience without an reasonable chance of doing eye damage.

Gene

[Phredy1]

newly discovered fact - unicorn glitter makes everything all good

second newly discovered fact - all that glitters is not gold. it seems to also be 660nm

[buffo]

Apart from spending a lot of time on forums bitching to people, I have no idea what credencials you have to critisize anyone.

If you don't know his credentials, then you need to stop arguing with him right now, because I *guarantee* you that he knows a lot more about lasers in general (and laser safety in particular) than you do. And yes, I say that knowing full well who you are and acknowledging your long experience in the industry.

Just because you consider yourself to be a big fish doesn't mean that there isn't one out there much, *much* bigger than you.

So tell where to find a safe amusement park. (zero chance of injury)

This is irrelevant. If someone is injured at an amusement park, there is little chance of the government passing a law to ban roller coasters.

However, there is a very good chance that eye injuries from a high-powered laser show could result in legislation that would curtail or even eliminate this industry. Indeed, the process has already started in Australia. (Re: the recent pointer ban) That is why people are so upset about the issue.

Facts:
Most shows in europe are over MPE, some of them way over MPE (not good )

This doesn't give anyone a free pass to blast static beams into the audience without any regard to eye safety. Just because people are doing it (and getting away with it) is not enough justification.

For starters: Laser eye injuries are easily overlooked, because of the brain's ability to fill in missing data from the visual field. Also, the eye can recover from some damage with time. These two facts work in tandem to ensure that laser eye injuries are under-reported. But just because they aren't being reported doesn't mean it's OK to cause the injury in the first place. (Or present a situation where the injury is possible or likely to occur.)

More importantly: The more professional European laserists actually measure the power from their projectors before each show to ensure they are below a given level. Yes, for the most part they use an arbitrary number that is in excess of the international MPE, which is still questionable from a safety standpoint, but at the very least their shows are predictable and consistent.

Andy has not provided evidence (either in the form of a public statement, or more preferably in a video showing pre-show preparations) that he does this - ever. All he has *ever* stated is that "Yes, our shows are safe", and even those reluctant statements have only been forthcoming after repeated badgering by respected safety experts here on PL.

Personally, I would not trust my eyes to one of his shows. And I say this despite the fact that I'm well aware of his considerable experience in the industry and the large number of shows he has performed.

The reason I do not trust him is because at every turn he has been evasive about his safety procedures. I believe that he does not take safety seriously. He strikes me as the sort of person who will set up a projector, fire it up, and if it looks good to him, it's good enough for the audience.

More to the point, I find this sort of attitude is *far* too common in Europe. In fact, many of the European ILDA members on the ILDA cruise back in 2008 displayed this same attitude.

I was at the Lase-off on that cruise. They had three of Medialas' Infinity-series projectors set up on stage. They were rated at 3 watts each, RGB. Bill Benner and Greg Makhov wanted the power turned down to comply with the US MPE requirements. Dirk Bauer (and several others) argued that since the show was in international waters, they should be allowed to do a "European Style Show". An argument ensued, and the Europeans won.

Now, does this mean that more power measurements were taken, and that some higher MPE value was used? Hell no! The lasers were set to full power and the show began. No further measurements were attempted.

I should also point out here that the event was open to all the passengers on the ship (who obviously were not ILDA members and didn't know a thing about lasers), and I would estimate that at least several hundred were present for the Lase-off.

I was nearly 100 ft away from the projectors (in the balcony) when the first show started, and I had to move off to the side after only a few minutes exposure. The lasers were just too damn bright! I experienced after-images on several scans, and the lasers were bright enough that it actually caused me pain. (They were audience-scanning from floor to ceiling.) No, it didn't cause me any permanent injury (I've had my retinas examined by an opthalmologist several times since then), but it certainly was very uncomfortable.

Now, if it was that bad for me in the balcony, what must it have been like for the poor fools sitting in the front rows of the auditorium, just 20 feet away from the projectors? And this was at a damn ILDA conference for crying out loud!

For this reason, I completely reject anyone's claim that they are "safe" just because they've been doing shows for a long period of time. In that room on the ILDA cruise, we probably had hundreds of man-years worth of talent assembled, yet there were only a few people arguing on the side of safety, while just about everyone else said "go for it".

If it had been a private event, I would not have minded so much. Everyone in ILDA should be able to make up their own mind with regard to the risks they deem acceptable for their own eyes. But once you allow passengers into the event, (or paying customers at a show) you need to adopt a more stringent safety standard, because you are now gambling with someone else's eyes.

Sure you can (and will) get noticeable eye damage but there is still a huge difference between blind and noticeable eye damage (not saying this is acceptable)

If it's not acceptable, then it's not acceptable. Ok, Pat's post does imply that Andy's shows are blinding people, and yes, I agree that this is an exaggeration. However, if Andy is sending 200 mw static beams into the audience, there is ample scientific evidence that this can (and will) cause noticeable eye damage. Possibly not permanent damage, as the eye may heal, but it's still noticeable damage. And you just said this is unacceptable. Glad to see you agree with us on that point.

So even if a 200mW laser would hit the eye and give noticeable eye damge it most probably would not affect daily life. (still not saying its acceptable, just trying to explain)

This is still unacceptable! Even if the eye heals later, it's not acceptable to cause damage in the first place! So if Andy is sending 200 mw static beams into the audience, we have a problem! And this is why so many people are upset.

Adam

[Laserman532]

Adam, Im surprised with you at this point...generally speaking your are more well informed before you open your mouth. The part you missed was that the display was safe because Andy uses super top sekret unicorn glitterass technology that make his displays safe.

IDLA Cruise...as I was reading that...I KNEW "international waters" would come up.