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Thread: can i scan the audiance with this laser?

  1. #11
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    Smile Good questions

    Hi Tommy;

    Welcome to PhotonLexicon. Sorry that I'm a little late getting to this thread... I've been rather busy lately.

    It sounds like you've been bitten by the laser bug (as all of us have been), and now you want to use your laser projector in a club to promote a band. And while that sounds very cool and fun, you have to understand that what you are talking about doing is currently against the law here in the US with the equipment you have. Please allow me to elaborate:

    In the United States, any "demonstration laser product" (a broad category of products that includes all laser light show projectors) must adhere to the rules and regulations set fourth in 21 CFR 1040.10 and 21CFR 1040.11 These are Federal Regulations, which means they apply in all 50 states and in US territories. Note that certain states have their own regulations that go beyond the federal requirements.

    Those regulations above specify that if you have a product that is capable of exceeding the class 3A limit (which is 4.99 mw), then you must apply for a variance for that product with the Center for Devices and Radiological Health (or CDRH). The CDRH is part of the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA), and they are tasked with policing everything from x-ray machines, to lasers for eye surgery, to laser projectors and laser light shows.

    The variance for the product (in this case, your projector) is a documented report that explains how you intend to make the product safe even though it exceeds class 3A limits. The way you file for the variance is by completing a "laser product report" and submitting it to the CDRH. This is a 34 page document that describes your projector in detail. You'll need lots of supporting documents too, including pictures of warning labels, block diagrams of the electrical circuits inside, a beam-path diagram, an operator's manual, and so fourth.

    Then, once you have certified that your projector is compliant, you need to file a second variance application for the show itself. This is the "laser show variance", and it's a much smaller application - typically only 2 pages plus a few additional diagrams showing how the projector will be positioned relative to the crowd.

    Here's the important part: This paperwork must be completed and filed before you ever do a commercial laser light show. If you don't have the paperwork completed, you are in violation of federal law. (Cue dramatic music here) This is a bad thing!

    Now, even if you have a properly filed and approved variance for both your projector and your show, you still have some rules that you need to follow, and one of those rules is that you can't send beams into the audience. You have to keep them at least 3 meters off the floor.

    Note that it *is* possible to apply for and be granted a special "audience scanning variance" from the CDRH. However, this is well beyond what most hobbyists are willing to attempt. There are only a handful of such variances in existence, and for good reason. The extra equipment needed to outfit (and test) a projector for audience scanning is prohibitively expensive. The calculations required to prove audience safety are complex, and they must be done for every show. And the risk of a lawsuit is much greater. Only one or two companies in the US have audience scanning variances.

    So to answer your question, no, you can't use your projector to scan the crowd at the show where the band plays. In fact, right now you can't use that projector in public at all, because it does not have a variance, and you don't have one for the show either. To be legal, both the projector and the show need to be varianced.

    To bring the projector into compliance so that you can get a variance for it, you're going to need things like an emission indicator, a power-on delay, an interlock (which shuts down the projector if the ILDA signal is removed), a remote kill switch, several safety labels, and so on. Search through the forums here and you'll find plenty of threads talking about these topics. Or better yet, go to the CDRH website (links above) and read up on the requirements yourself.

    Also, you may want to consider attending Casey Stack's Laser Safety Seminar this August 23rd. It's going to be held in Newton, North Carolina, right after SELEM. Details in the meet and greet sub-forum. (See links)

    With regard to your other question about using a lens to widen the beam to make it safer, this is something that many hobbyists do in their own homes to increase the safety margin, but this is not acceptable for a commercial laser show in public. Remember, in public you are gambling with other people's eyes, not just your own.

    If you are going to use your projector in public, you absolutely must have a variance, both for the projector itself and for the show as a whole. Anything else would be considered willful negligence in a court of law, opening you up to just about unlimited legal liability. (Not to mention potential criminal penalties.)

    In short, don't do it.

    Adam

    Edit: Just noticed Marc's excellent reply above. Lots of great information in there!

  2. #12
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    Lightbulb

    Yea... What they said.

  3. #13
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gottaluvlasers View Post

    I have been in business for over 5 years and i am still an EXTREME newbie in this industy. I have probably ~500 professional paying shows under my belt and *I* do not have the confidence in myself to audience scan as safe as it only should be performed. I have the $2000 meter. I have the O-scope, but i dont have the experience and the technical know-how.

    In my personal opinion, Audience scanning, is not a necessity of a show for it to be a "wow" factor event. A good operator with good artistic ability to use the laser as a medium to express themselves and the music is the real "wow" factor.
    That's one of the greatest truths I've ever seen posted here. Hands down.. THAT's where the money's at: Talent and skill.

  4. #14
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    Default Question

    i really appreciate all the help everyone is giving me here. i have already accepted the fact that under no curcimstance am i to ever let any beam from my laser's hit the audiance.

    buti have several 5mw lasers i have bought over the years from different music stores that do what is called the spirograph, i thinks on is called,
    the black widow and the other one is a remote control i bought them from mars music about 8 years ago.
    can i use them to shine on the band on stage not on the audiance?

    what i was wanting to know also is can you use the ones like you buy from china say a 100mw red and a 150mw green yellow dmx only to shine on the band on stage not the audiance.
    i have given up on the idea to scan the audiance.

    what i am wanting to do is have a green laser shining down on me from above my head making a round circle and me standing inside of it. i don't know if anyone saw american idol when adam lambert did it.it was a cool effect looked like a beam of laser coming down on him with all the smoke. i have 2 smoke machines.

    and also is anyone here familular with american dj laser called the galaxian? the man at the music store said it is fine to let it shine in the audiance it is a 50mw green and a 80mw red and it has over 500 beams shining out of it. i see a lots of clubs here in atlanta and they have these they shine little dots that go everywhere and are moving kinda like the stars in the sky.
    i really do appreciate all the help that you guys are giving me. may God bless each and every one of you.

  5. #15
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tommylee333 View Post
    and also is anyone here familular with american dj laser called the galaxian? the man at the music store said it is fine to let it shine in the audiance it is a 50mw green and a 80mw red and it has over 500 beams shining out of it. i see a lots of clubs here in atlanta and they have these they shine little dots that go everywhere and are moving kinda like the stars in the sky.
    i really do appreciate all the help that you guys are giving me. may God bless each and every one of you.
    No, you can't. The man at the music store will tell you whatever you want to hear if it means he makes another sale. he can't even legally run that in his store.
    "TO DO IS TO BE" - Nietzsche
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  6. #16
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee View Post
    The man at the music store will tell you whatever you want to hear if it means he makes another sale.
    Very true! Unless you are at one of the Guitar Center "master stores" where they have certified lighting technicians working there (only like 16 stores in the entire US), the advice you get from the guy behind the counter is likely to be wrong.
    he can't even legally run that in his store.
    Exactly. But they do it anyway. It pisses me off when I go into those stores.

    Adam

  7. #17
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    Default atlanta

    i am from atlanta ga,
    God bless.
    God Bless.

  8. #18
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    Default

    Actually you can use the ADJ Galaxian laser and the guy at the music store was not wrong in this case.
    That particular product uses a diffraction lens or lenses to break up the laser into hundreads of smaller low powered beams.
    You do not need a variance for anything American DJ makes.

  9. #19
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    Default

    That's been a bit of a question I've had as well. I've been under the impression that the things from major commercial US manufacturers such as American DJ and Chauvet that are under 4.95mw or, in the case where they are over 4.95 but use the diffraction grating which splits beans into hundreds or thousands of points (twinkle) lasers are essentially safe to use without variances.

    I've been in the catering business for years, and now manage a large banquet and conference facility. Mobile DJ's every weekend come in for weddings, parties, etc. with various lighting effects including these types of lasers and I have always been under the impression that these are fine. It's when you have a unit (legal or not) that exceeds 4.95mw where the issue of liability and variances comes in.

    Correct?

  10. #20
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    Correct?[/QUOTE]

    The problem is quality control. Some of the beams exceed 5 mW, and Chinese lasers are notorious for power stability problems. You also have to watch for zeroth order, the beam that goes straight through the grating.

    Technically no, but enforcement is lax to non-existent.

    Its hard to judge if its 5 mW by eyeball.

    Steve
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