Fog for outdoor shows

[wondertwnz]

I have mostly done indoor shows over the last 5 years but have recently been asked to do a few outdoor shows. I am looking for suggestions for generating enough fog or haze outdoors. I have done a couple of shows now with limited success using a DF-50 and Two G-300 placed where I can. Anyone had expereince with the MDG Atmosphere units?
Wind is obviously a big factor and after a lot of reading I think the MDG Haze may hang the best due to the particle size. I have noticed my DF50 is a lot better than the G300 and it is a smaller particle.
Any advise would be great.
thanks
Larry

[Spec]

Cigarette smoke. Lots of cigarette smoke.

Hazers cant touch the density and particle size of smoke

Where its not practical to smoke 2 packs an hour in a non ventilated room a high volume fog machine works. Though obvuiously a hazer is best given the options, Ill see if i can find my hazer doc on my computer and get it to you.

[yaddatrance]

I'd say MDG is fine, or a Dragon 25kCFM Check CFM ratings...

Wow MDG's site blows right now.

For outdoor shows, you only have two choices... High laser power or high
volume smoke upwind... Preferably both...

If it's enclosed like a stadium you could get by with smaller.

Oh yeah, there's a few good photos of the Big Max doing some over river
shows on the net... Basically particle size isnt' important for outdoor since fog
dissipates so quickly.

--

addendum, I've just went through their site and they're not listing any of
their huge foggers on there... So I may have to retract the MDG... They
still make nice oil based hazers though.

The thing to look for in a classic fogger is the heater element, you don't
want to have to wait for reheat... I'd say 1500-2000W heaters for outdoors....
Oh, and don't run the outdoor foggers indoors I learned that the hard way.

[yaddatrance]

Oh and you didn't specify your budget

But on the low end (since I've noticed that laserists tend to be CHEAP)
Chauvet's professional line works fine. 50 different companies rebrand
it but look for the name "F-1700" Should only run a couple hundred....
The dragons can run upwards of a grand, since they're designed for
filling a big arena.

Oh and for indoor shows, nothing beats an oil-based hazer... Atmosphere is a
great one, but you're sure as heck not running it outside if any wind is going.

If you're looking for a compromise, the HZ-1000 is a water based hazer. Which
basically means is a glorified fog machine, but the particle sizes are a bit
smaller than a fogger, but larger than an oil-based hazer... (That that since it's a 400W heater, it'll need to recharge often if you crank it up)

[wondertwnz]

You mentioned the "Dragon" Who is the manufacturerer of this I cn not find any info on it.

Would you suggest the fog machine or the hazer unit?
Thanks
Larry

I'd say MDG is fine, or a Dragon 25kCFM Check CFM ratings...

Wow MDG's site blows right now.

For outdoor shows, you only have two choices... High laser power or high
volume smoke upwind... Preferably both...

If it's enclosed like a stadium you could get by with smaller.

Oh yeah, there's a few good photos of the Big Max doing some over river
shows on the net... Basically particle size isnt' important for outdoor since fog
dissipates so quickly.

--

addendum, I've just went through their site and they're not listing any of
their huge foggers on there... So I may have to retract the MDG... They
still make nice oil based hazers though.

The thing to look for in a classic fogger is the heater element, you don't
want to have to wait for reheat... I'd say 1500-2000W heaters for outdoors....
Oh, and don't run the outdoor foggers indoors I learned that the hard way.

[yaddatrance]

I like to think of it this way....

Hazers > Foggers... But you always want both

The particles are smaller, which means that you have greater hangtime,
the actual haze is less noticable, which means people who usually
complain about foggers won't notice... it doesn't set off fire alarms
and can safely go through air circulation systems. It also makes the
beams look brighter since it provides just enough particles for a
good beam without blocking it. Basically, hazers are subtle, with a good
system you won't notice it's presence until you shine lights through it..
Hazers are also more efficient (At least oil based ones) You can do
a full night using just a small cup's worth.

However... Hazers are strictly for indoor venues...
In any place with significant airflow (places with lots of ventilation,
or outdoors) it won't stick around long enough do much good since
it'll go right away... It also produces less volume in general, at least
compared to any reasonably sized foggers. The visual effects
are also quite different... The "Liquid Sky" effect for example, is much
less pronouced with a hazer.

I'd say fog machines as a primary laser dispersal medium should
be reserved strictly for outdoors and places which have airflow.
A fogger indoors can completely kill the dance floor. People
really don't like breathing it in... It also tends to mute the laser by
wasting most of the light in the first few feet. That said, whenever I
have a hazer running, I also set up a very small fogger (3500cfm)
above the scanheads aimed to rush through the beam for the
visual effects.

Also note that *technically* hazers could be bad for you, since the
particles are so fine that they go right through your normal defenses
against external inhalants, which isn't a problem normally, but since
the haze comes out ionized, it could also pick up whatever's running
around... There's been a few studies, but nothing's come out of them
besides a precautionary note so nothing I'd be too worried about.

The suggestion of what to get comes down to cost...

If you need this for an outdoor show, a hazer won't cut it. In fact, small
lasers just don't cut it... For the cost of a serious outdoor fog machine,
you can pick up a 1W or greater argon (~$1500).

If you just need something for general purpose use, you'll find out
that most of your shows are indoors anyways, in which case I'd
buy a generic hazer for ~$300... Pretty much all hazers work the
same, it's merely a matter of control. Some just have a button,
some support DMX, some even support MIDI... if you end up needing
fog, just get one of those $30 specials. Now be forewarned that
those cheap foggers will only last a few shows, as they lack
any sort of self-cleaning mechanism.

I'd have to get back to you on brand, I picked ours up at a local
lighting store for $800 when it was on sale (and after a bit of
harassing, this particular unit had been sitting in their store for a year)
and I just remember the big "Dragon" logo... it's a nice 25,000cfm
unit used to fill stadiums and the like... (which is why I
strongly recommend against using it indoors like I did the first time...
Bigger isn't better

[yaddatrance]

Oh yeah... what I forgot to mention that makes all the difference in the world is that haze isn't forcibly ejected from the hazer... It uses the fact that it has small particles and is created using heat to "steam" the fluid to rise...

[wondertwnz]

Thanks for all of the input. I should have been a bit more specific. I am using a Laserscope 40W , a CV 5W and two Melles 3W for shows. I am just having trouble with visibility of these in larger outdoor areas. Hoping someone had some nice magic they had used in the past for particles outside. I just did a show with the 5W cv and on of the DPSS systems and used the DP50 Hazer near the heads and put another fogger out with high CFM blower but just could not seem to get good visiblity past 100' or so where the haze and fog are reaching. I guess the answer may just be lots more of the same.
I am also looking into a wireless system to fire smoke pods (I also do pyro) so i could distibute them throuhout the area. But this can get costly on a per show basis.
thanks
Larry

[yaddatrance]

Ah, that makes sense then... Where I live now, there's always so much pollen
and dust I've never have problems with visibility... When I was doing shows
in Michigan, crisp night air often had no particles. Here's what I recommend.

1) Get a big fogger. Pretty much any fogger that costs over $500
will do... Another thing to note is that in this range you can run
different density fog. Martin's foggers (i.e. Magnum Pro 2000 ~$500) isn't
as powerful as some others, but it puts out a good amount of fog.
More importantly, they can run of 120Vand allow the widest selection
of fluids, including water based haze. These units are also the cheapest
as you can buy a truckload for the cost of a 35k CFM fogger. If you feel
like shelling out cash, the G300's look very cute, but they're too expensive
for my blood. (~$2k)

2) Here's the real trick. Buy some big fans. Now you can shell out
cash for professional versions of fans, but the Home Depot ones
work just as fine.

(real thing: http://www.hollynorth.com/product.ph...&cat=26&page=1)
(works better: http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...0&storeId=6970
Browse around northentool http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...6970&N=867+126)

3) A real hazer (oil based) won't do you any good unless the conditions
are just right as the haze rises straight up. All of the units which claim
their haze can travel, are using water based hazers.

Hope that helps.

[Angelillolaser]

Thanks for all of the input. I should have been a bit more specific. I am using a Laserscope 40W , a CV 5W and two Melles 3W for shows. I am just having trouble with visibility of these in larger outdoor areas. Hoping someone had some nice magic they had used in the past for particles outside. I just did a show with the 5W cv and on of the DPSS systems and used the DP50 Hazer near the heads and put another fogger out with high CFM blower but just could not seem to get good visiblity past 100' or so where the haze and fog are reaching. I guess the answer may just be lots more of the same.
I am also looking into a wireless system to fire smoke pods (I also do pyro) so i could distibute them throuhout the area. But this can get costly on a per show basis.
thanks
Larry

HI Larry
I need some help to run laserscope
I ´m modified a laserscope 804 for laser shows, I´ll use a colimated lens to use with cambridge galvos, my lamp has 470hours, should be changed it?
graphics..
In fact works in a continuous, you could do graphics or q switched destroy a continuos graphic?
thanks
Angel