Release forms when purchasing a laser.

[Bradfo69]

Just a question as to whether it is common for a seller of a previously used, commercially built and varienced higher powered laser to have the buyer sign a release form holding the previous owner harmless?

I've purchased (through eBay) a CR-Tech Super 7M RGB unit that was previously in a nightclub in Vegas and used for less than 50 hours. The nightclub owner got the unit and the show/venue varienced. The company/individual that is liquidating the items from the now defunct club has sent me a release form to complete as well. All of my communications with the seller have given me no cause for alarm and, the "legaleze" on the form looks to be fine. It also includes that I will take the necessary steps to obtain my own varience (which I'm already starting). I've just never encountered this and didn't know if it was common practice.

Thanks!
~Brad

[gottaluvlasers]

Hi Brad-

Just out of curiosity, how do you know that this unit was/is varianced? This seems to me to just be a chinese imported Laser system. And those are no wheres near CDRH compliant. i may be wrong, i am sincerely just asking out of curiosity.

On the disclaimer part, it is rather odd. They seem to know the terminology and regulations regarding lasers, therefore should not be selling it to you in the first place. (21 CFR states that no laser be sold to, transfered or given to anyone else who does not demostrate their posession of a Laser Light Show variance).

I would ask to see a copy of the variance approval letter.

-Marc

[Bradfo69]

Hi Marc,

Here is a cut and paste of a couple of our e-mails. The first paragraph where he indicated the unit was varianced. The next part is when I was inquiring about shipping and obtaining info about the previous variance:

I am liquidating equipment for a club owner. This laser system is just one of those items he's asked that I sell. This is what I know: He did receive a CDRH Variance to be able to import and operate this system in his Las Vegas club. However, since we are selling this system to a 3rd party, I don't believe that variance can be transferred along with the sale of the equipment. It is my understanding that you would need to re-apply for a new variance in your name for your particular venue. What we would require as part of the sale would be for you to sign a General Release of Responsibility Waiver to insure that we are held harmless once you take possession of the system. I hope this makes sense, and please don't hesitate to get back to me if you need any further clarification. Thanks,

Now. After I won it, I asked the following with his responses in RED.

1) Would you feel more comfortable sending it (and is it cheaper) to my business address (Executive Banquet and Conference Center)? I know there was a concern about selling it to people "qualified" to own/operate it. If I hadn't gotten the sense that you were a responsible person, I would not have allowed this deal to happen. You did your homework, and even learned more than I had been able to find about the difference between the two systems.(Brads note - He has two models - the M and the S) I’m sure you understand how serious you need to be with regards to its usage. Always beaming the lasers upward away from your audience. Being cautious about reflective surfaces that could bounce the beams back, Theremust be books, pamphlets and all sorts of liturature about using laser equipment responsibly, and you need to become an expert in these regards. It’s not much different in terms of the potential danger factors than being the guy in charge of the fireworks on the 4th of July. There are many lawsuits currently in the court system involving people who have been blinded by irresponsible operators at the helm. I trust you will not be one of them. It makes no difference where I send the system. You pick the place that’s most convenient for you.

2) I know the variances for the venue and the unit itself cannot be transferred between owners but, according to the CDRH, the process goes faster for the UNIT if they've already given a variance for it before. I don't know what hoops the previous owner had to go through to get an import, non FDA approved, laser varianced but, I shouldn't have to go about re-inventing the wheel to get my paperwork approved if there is some paperwork or contact/ID information that's available from the previous owner or variance.

The owner of the nightclub had a technical director whose job it was to not only investigate which systems to buy, but it was his charge to get the necessary variances in place as well. The owner has little memory of that whole situation and I've had trouble getting the tech director to return my calls (eventually he was fired from his position, so he may be bitter which is why I can’t reach him). I will give another concerted effort tomorrow to be in touch and see if i can even get copies of the variances for you to have. Here is perhaps some information you can use when contacting the CDRH. The systems were being used at a night club called Forty Deuce which was located in the Mandalay Bay Hotel and Casino complex in Las Vegas. That should be a good start for them to dig back in their records anyway.

I'll try and have it all boxed and shipped by 1pm or so Pacific time, and will get you the tracking info.

So, that's what I know at this point. Thanks Marc!

[buffo]

I'm speculating at this point, but based on Marc's comments that the systems appear to be non-compliant, it is quite possible that they obtained a show variance using another projector, and then later added these non-compliant projectors to the venue and didn't bother updating their variance.

Yes, this is illegal. However, it's much more common than you might think. In fact, I was once asked to consult at a nightclub quite a while back, and I had to back out of the deal because of exactly this situation.

They had an old Mobolaser rig, complete with a variance, that had been installed for many years. Unfortunately, the Reliant multi-line argon inside it was dead. They wanted to replace it with a solid state laser. Fine - but you have to file a modified laser product product report afterwards and update your variance. They didn't want to do that. "Can't you just install the laser for us?" Well sir - no, I won't. That's when I walked out of the deal.

Fast forward to 2 months later. Not only did they find someone to install a much hotter 1 watt green laser in that mobo rig (bumping it up to a class 4 device, in voilation of the original class3B variance for it), but they also added two cheap chinese RGB rigs to the left and right of it. No variance paperwork on those at all. Sigh... At least they weren't aiming the damn things into the crowd.

Maybe it's karma, but about 6 months after all this went down, the place suddenly closed up for good. Evidently there were charges of embezzlement. Not sure what happened to the laser gear - maybe it's sill in storage. But they're not in business anymore.

Anyway, if you buy the projectors, it's up to you to file the paperwork. They (the CDRH) can't go after you for buying the non-compliant products. The onus is on the seller (and the importer), not the buyer.

Now, if you actually *use* them in a show while they're still non-compliant, then they could go after you, but so long as you bring them into compliance first, you're good to go. I say sign whatever disclosure you need to in order to get the projectors, and then work from there.

Adam

[dsli_jon]

Hi Brad -

Sorry to 'butt-in', but just some (hopefully) helpful-fyi...

Try to find-out what 'dba' (doing-business-as) they used for this, as a Laser Show Production, then do a 'search' of it at FDA - http://www.fda.gov/default.htm (search-field, upper-right corner...)

Now, granted, you can't always find a Sho-Co's info, in there, since FDA's DBs are horribly out-of-date, but very-often, you can - and, should - be able to find *something* on a Sho Co (or install)'s variance application, based on a name-search...

This, in-turn, can lead you to find what Projectors (which, if a Variance was issued, would necessitate them having-been Certified-ones, only...) they filed-with...

ie: a 'cursory' search there for "Mandalay Bay / Fourty Deuce / CR-Tech Super 7, etc" did not turn-up anything - but - interestingly, in doing a quick search for "LaserMedia" (a well industry-known fully-certified line of projectors...) found a result for "Mamdalay Bay" and some (presumably) club from the past, there...

So, perhaps if you can find-out what 'name' they were 'dba' for this Club (if-not 'Fourty...") AS the 'laser show' (might be different than their actual, operating dba as a club... ie: 'Fourty Deuce Laser Productions', etc, etc...) you should-be able to 'pull-up' their Variance approval / amendments, etc, and - in-theory - you should be able to find something on this box... or, if-not, what they did file-with...

Hope this is of some help...

peace...
j

[DanG]

Hi Brad -

Sorry to 'butt-in', but just some (hopefully) helpful-fyi...

Try to find-out what 'dba' (doing-business-as) they used for this, as a Laser Show Production, then do a 'search' of it at FDA - http://www.fda.gov/default.htm (search-field, upper-right corner...)

Now, granted, you can't always find a Sho-Co's info, in there, since FDA's DBs are horribly out-of-date, but very-often, you can - and, should - be able to find *something* on a Sho Co (or install)'s variance application, based on a name-search...

This, in-turn, can lead you to find what Projectors (which, if a Variance was issued, would necessitate them having-been Certified-ones, only...) they filed-with...

ie: a 'cursory' search there for "Mandalay Bay / Fourty Deuce / CR-Tech Super 7, etc" did not turn-up anything - but - interestingly, in doing a quick search for "LaserMedia" (a well industry-known fully-certified line of projectors...) found a result for "Mamdalay Bay" and some (presumably) club from the past, there...

So, perhaps if you can find-out what 'name' they were 'dba' for this Club (if-not 'Fourty...") AS the 'laser show' (might be different than their actual, operating dba as a club... ie: 'Fourty Deuce Laser Productions', etc, etc...) you should-be able to 'pull-up' their Variance approval / amendments, etc, and - in-theory - you should be able to find something on this box... or, if-not, what they did file-with...

Hope this is of some help...

peace...
j

Brad,

I'm with Marc on this one. For starters a variance is granted to a show/company/venue and has nothing to do with the legal status of the projector (though a compliant and properly reported projector is an important part of that show). I know that a lot of people use the word "variance" colloquially but when someone imports a projector which is not previously certified the amount of legwork involved almost surely rises above the level of what a club would be down for making me doubt its status.

The sellers comfort with your level of inquiry is nice but honestly irrelevant. If he sells it to you and you waive liability you take on the responsibility for producing product reports on the projector, waiting for them to be approved and then incorporating it into a show. I would walk away personally.

Sorry man but i hope that helps.

You can

[gottaluvlasers]

Brad-

adam and john gave ya some good info. i personally dont think you got hosed or anything. the guy seems very legit and he probably just did recieve bad info.

My guess, with probably 95% certainty, is that this is *NOT* a certified/varianced laser system. i cant think of any chinese imported laser system that has gone through the certification process. Now, im not saying it has never been done, but i cant think of 1 time from *any* company or individual who attempted such a thing. And you gotta think, somebody with that type of knowledge to do a product report and laser light show report and variance app. for a chinese laser system and perform the proper modifications probably would not have bought the unit in the first place.

now, what to do...

along with the FDa link that jogn gave you, you can also check www.regulations.gov this is *supposedly* the FDA's newer updated db for this type of thing (which it is definitely not! lol, but better than the old FDA site) if you do a search there for forty deuce, mandalay bay, cr-tec...nothing comes up. Now, do a search for Connecticut Lasers and you will see some of my letters and variances. try daystar lasers also. Just so that you can see that there is info there.

Ok, so it isnt certified, its not the end of the world. add in a shutter, non interlocked labels, proper laser danger labels, delay (if you want) and do a product report. Yeah, it isnt fun, but it is doable.

oh, back to the variance...see if you can get the name of the varianced operator. that may help also.

lets see if we can get this sorted out.

-Marc

[dsli_jon]

...a variance is granted to a show/company/venue and has nothing to do with the legal status of the projector (though a compliant and properly reported projector is an important part of that show).

Yessir, but the 'point' of suggesting to Brad to try and 'find' the venues' Var in the register is, IF they were, in-fact, granted a show-performance Variance, it *should* contain which projectors, they got approved-with... may, or may-not, have info on this 'Super-special'... but at least, it's a 'start'... Certainly, they would not have gotten approval with an un-cert'd import...

peace...
j

[DanG]

Yessir, but the 'point' of suggesting to Brad to try and 'find' the venues' Var in the register is, IF they were, in-fact, granted a show-performance Variance, it *should* contain which projectors, they got approved-with... may, or may-not, have info on this 'Super-special'... but at least, it's a 'start'... Certainly, they would not have gotten approval with an un-cert'd import...

peace...
j

Understood. I didn't even mean to quote you there because as it happens I kind of suck with vbulletin features. Please ignore my being stupid.

[dsli_jon]

Please ignore my being stupid.

Well, I would happily, but you weren't...

peace... (and good advice...
j