Laser pointer possibly to become offensive weapons to own in the UK

[beamann]

JUDGE: "So, your were cleaning your finger nails with your pocket knife while standing on the street cornner and the victim came running around the cornner and ran into you and your knife 16 times!? DEFENDANT: Yes your honor, it was the damndest thing!

[platinum]

I borrowed an Arctic III from an associate of mine over last weekend to test it out.

The case is something to marvel at. It really does have the look and feel of a light saber. (I'm a Jedi, I should know.) That's all it really has going for it.

I agree that it's design is retarded. It should have a momentary switch, at least, so the operator can easily turn it off by letting go of the trigger. I bet a majority of people using it when they turn it on for the first time will point it somewhere they didn't intend to as they try to click the switch on the end of the barrel to turn it off. At least it has a "password" of sorts to turn it on. The user has to click the secondary power button in a certain pattern to get it to turn on in ~10mW blinking mode, then another click for continuous, then even one more for "high power" which, on the unit I tested was around 800mW.

I really can't believe they were able to sell these in the US and look forward to seeing if they are completely recalled after a few select incidents.


Here in the US, I agree that it's a given that our laser laws are in for a change soon -maybe thanks mostly to these Arctic III "pointers" permeating our market. It worries me to imagine some teenager with no knowledge of laser safety bringing this to a party and pointing it at his friends' eyes. I keep hearing of teenagers choking each other out for fun, to get a rush. With mentalities like that, what are kids going to do with Class IV lasers they can buy for $200?

-Jonathan

[ElektroFreak]

Here in the US, I agree that it's a given that our laser laws are in for a change soon -maybe thanks mostly to these Arctic III "pointers" permeating our market.

While I agree with everything else in your post, here I disagree. These lasers are already illegal in the US.. how exactly would one make them "more illegal"? It's very simple to fix this issue: Have customs crack down on their importation. No new laws are necessary in the US, they're already there. I think people forget that these things are already illegal, hence the paranoia about new legislation.

[gottaluvlasers]

From my understanding, and i *may be wrong* Casey Stack briefly spoke of this, the Arctics are *NOT* "Illegal" here becasue they are not classified as a "Laser Pointer."

Correct me if im wrong, but the Arctics have some sort of key? some sort of beam shutter? and some sort of attenuation? They also include a label. Therefore, "Technically" the jack asses at wicked, with no regard for possible injuries with their intended young aged market, found a grey area and exploited it. I also think the wickeds have an accession #. This is why I am *EXTREMELY* bitter with the way the CDRH is right now.

These as*holes have a couple bucks, hire a fancy lawyer, exploit a grey area in OUR LAWS and have a perfectly legal high powered dangerous laser that 15 year olds are buying from the money they make cutting lawns.

But yet, i have to go through hell and high water and file reports and variances and faa approvals and insurance and product reports and class b licensing and class d licensing and laser class this and laser class that....just to use my PROFESSIONAL Laser in industry to build my business and support my family.

-Marc

[ElektroFreak]

I believe they do have several safety features, yes.. whether everything required for an accession number, I don't know. I also have yet to see an actual accession number myself..

Honestly, on top of everything else that I feel could be done to help this situation, after a bit of thought the NUMBER 1 thing that would likely help with this mess is for the rules to be CLEAR, CONCISE, and EASILY UNDERSTOOD.

[gottaluvlasers]

for the rules to be CLEAR, CONCISE, and EASILY UNDERSTOOD.

Now THAT is freaking HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I need Aaron to insert the worlds biggest laughing smiley here!!!!

Sorry everyone, but if its hard to tell, im pretty bitter right now. LOL.

-Marc

[allthatwhichis]

[Eidetic]

There is no shutter on the WL Arctic. There's no room for a warning label anywhere near the output aperture. Is a "momentary on" button part of the definition of a "laser pointer"? My guess is that it is and that's why it's not a feature on this laser. By omitting the "momentary on" button (essentially denying the true nature of the product), the laser is made much more dangerous when operated in the hand.

[allthatwhichis]

There is no shutter on the WL Arctic. There's no room for a warning label anywhere near the output aperture. Is a "momentary on" button part of the definition of a "laser pointer"? My guess is that it is and that's why it's not a feature on this laser. By omitting the "momentary on" button (essentially denying the true nature of the product), the laser is made much more dangerous when operated in the hand.

Makes me want to get one for each hand...

[buffo]

These lasers are already illegal in the US.

Actually no, they're not. They comply with IEC regulations, and under Laser Notice 50, that's good enough for the CDRH. (They've even filed for a variance on them.) So long as they are not marketed as pointers, Wicked is in the clear. They don't have to have a specific purpose to sell them. (After all, what is the purpose of a pet rock? Yet they sold shitloads of those things, didn't they?)

They filed their laser product report and did not get a letter of objection from the CDRH. These days, that's about as good as it gets. Their product has been (self-) certified as compliant, and just to be safe, they retained the services of Casey Stack at Laser Compliance Inc to be sure of it.

Also note that as of a week ago (in response to ongoing criticism) they are trying to contact the CDRH directly for clarification about this and other variance applications they have submitted in order to ensure they are fully compliant. But we all know how responsive the CDRH is lately.

From my understanding, and i *may be wrong* Casey Stack briefly spoke of this, the Arctics are *NOT* "Illegal" here becasue they are not classified as a "Laser Pointer."

Spot on, Marc.

Correct me if im wrong, but the Arctics have some sort of key? some sort of beam shutter? and some sort of attenuation? They also include a label.

Everything except a shutter. However, under IEC rules, you don't need the shutter, so once again they are in the clear.

Therefore, "Technically" the jack asses at wicked, with no regard for possible injuries with their intended young aged market, found a grey area and exploited it.

They are getting better. They've removed a lot of the reckless stuff from their website, and they've moved all the user videos to a separate "forum" area that is not on the wickedlasers.com domain. They are also stepping up their training of new users, and are including lots of information (and free safety goggles) with every laser.

They've realized that the backlash is hurting them, and they're trying to clean up their act. Since I don't see any other companies doing this (deal extreme, I'm looking at you), I have to give Wicked the benefit of the doubt. They are far from perfect, but they're better than the alternatives. Why aren't we working with them to make things better?

I also think the wickeds have an accession #. This is why I am *EXTREMELY* bitter with the way the CDRH is right now.

If they have their i's dotted and their t's crossed, why shouldn't they get an accession number? There is nothing in the law that prevents anyone from building a hand-held, battery-powered class IV laser. And it would be *stupid* to try to write (let alone enforce) such a law. (Where do you draw the line?)

For example: If I take a 1 watt DPSS green laser and power it from a set of Lithium-Ion batteries mounted on my belt, is that illegal? What if I build it into a round housing? See the problem here? At what point does it become a "pointer"? (When you market it as such.)

People here on PL have already built 1 watt laser modules around these 445 nm diodes that are smaller than the one Wicked is selling. If I power one of those with a battery, have I just built a pointer? (No. I've built a hand-held class IV laser.)

These as*holes have a couple bucks, hire a fancy lawyer, exploit a grey area in OUR LAWS and have a perfectly legal high powered dangerous laser that 15 year olds are buying from the money they make cutting lawns.

I agree that it is unfortunate that they've catered their marketing to teenagers, but can you honestly blame them? That's where the market is! I agree that in the past they've been reckless, but as of the past half-year or so, they have been doing everything legal, at least as far as I've been able to determine. So I can't fault them for that.

Sure, we can beat them up about the increased "redneck accident" risk from these 1 watt blues, but to me that's like trying to sue Browning because some idiot bought a 9 mm automatic and didn't know how to use it safely. That's not Brownings fault, so long as the laws surrounding the sale were followed. Same thing with Wicked, at least in my opinion.

i have to go through hell and high water and file reports and variances and faa approvals and insurance and product reports and class b licensing and class d licensing and laser class this and laser class that....just to use my PROFESSIONAL Laser in industry to build my business and support my family.

Wicked went through the same hell, if you'll remember. And I promise you Casey's assistance wasn't cheap. If you were ever of the mind to compete with them, you'd probably end up doing the same.

There is no shutter on the WL Arctic.

See above. Not required under IEC, and Laser Notice 50 allows people to use IEC in leu of portions of 21 CFR 1040, including the part about shutters.

There's no room for a warning label anywhere near the output aperture.

This isn't required under either IEC or 21 CFR 1040. If the aperture is too small to hold a label with text large enough to read, you can put a small one (or even no label), so long as you have another one somewhere else (which can even be in the instruction manual) stating the required information. Casey Stack addressed this during his safety seminar the day after SELEM.

Is a "momentary on" button part of the definition of a "laser pointer"?

No. First, they *will* operate CW, at least until they overheat or the battery dies. Second, many lab modules only operate in pulsed or modulated mode. No, according to the CDRH, using or marketing the laser for "pointing, alignment, or leveling purposes" is what qualifies it as a pointer. Since they don't do that, they're in the clear. (They used to call it a "burning laser", but now they don't even do that, since they're not obliged to provide a specific use for it. Like the pet rock example, so long as it doesn't violate existing prohibitions, it's legal.)

My guess is that it is and that's why it's not a feature on this laser. By omitting the "momentary on" button (essentially denying the true nature of the product), the laser is made much more dangerous when operated in the hand.

The reason the smart switch was added was to increase the safety of the laser. It had nothing to do with the variance application. (The early models did not have the smart switch.) It does seem to have the unintended consequence of making it harder to turn off, however. Maybe you should contact them and suggest that they modify the secondary switch to make it an "instant off" button, to increase safety?

Bottom line: Wicked may not be the most loved company, but they sure as hell aren't going away, nor are these Arctic blue hand-held lasers. And of all the hand-held companies that I can think of, Wicked is the only one that seems to be listening to their critics and actually doing something about safety. So why are we pissing all over them and no one else?

More to the point, it really bothers me to see the members of a free country contemplating trying to ban a legal product just because we don't like it... Because there is a *huge* risk that a new law against Wicked would also have far-reaching ramifications for the rest of the industry, including us. (This was discussed in depth on the ILDA cruise, and indeed there is a pending bill before the US Senate that has already passed the House that could have a chilling effect on outdoor shows. Google HR 5810)

Frankly, I think all this anti-pointer rhetoric has gone far enough. And the utter hysteria surrounding these 1 watt pointers is completely unfounded. Will we see a few more accidents? Probably. Will that be enough to destroy our industry? Hardly, especially not if we pay attention to what's going on and make an effort educate people, both at Wicked and among the public.

And if I hear one more person talk about these things as if they were a terrorist blinding weapon, I think I'll lose my lunch. You want a terrorist weapon for blinding people? Go with DPSS IR at 1064 nm! It can be over 30 times more powerful, it's completely invisible, it has far better beam characteristics, and the technology has been available for over a decade.

Let's get a grip, people...

Adam