Here we go again..... Spacelas question

[gottaluvlasers]

Pretty good debate here. Lets try to keep it professional though.

In my opinion, Hobbyists pose a VERY important role in this industry to be quite honest. However, where i get pissed and where most "Professional" Laserists get pissed is when the line between "Hobbyist" and "Professional" gets crossed. (and i dont mean "professional" as in quality of skill. I mean it as a Laserist who performs a service for a fee and owns a business).

Lets face it, some of the "hobbysits" here have come up with some brilliant innovative products (DZ- color correction. Gary- Spaghetti.) so, hobbyists are just as brilliant and just as much of a "laserist" as i am or most other "Pros" here.

HOWEVER:

What is happening is the that all of these budget, non compliant, chinese piece of crap projectors are flooding our market and turning many legitimate Pro Laserists into almost non-existent business's.

people going out and doing *PAYING* laser shows for a dime less than $500 (and even that i cringe at) is DRASTICALLY de valuing this profession. The equipment is already de valuing the art form and the value of purchasing/building a well made, compliant or quality made projector. i get at least a call a week on projector quotes. right now i tell them all, if you dont have a budget of at least $8000 you dont want a "PROFESSIONAL" Laser and you arent serious about doing PROFESSIONAL laser shows.

can hobbysits buy $2500 projectors? sure. you betcha. are they decent? yeah, honestly- some of them are. wouldi base a *business* around a pre-made, ebay laser that we *ALL* know is that cheap for a reason? nope.

perhaps its a pride thing. this is supposed to be your business, your "baby." why the hell would you want to run a business based on illegal equipment, faulty equipment, non-spec equipment, equipment that severely devalues the very business you are supposed to be getting into? TRUST ME...karmas a bitch! go into something "half ass" it will come back and bite ya in the ass 10 fold.

hobbyists have a place in our profession. AS HOBBYISTS. when they cross the line and begin undercutting legitimate pro companies and using laser "toys" they bid on against 100 other 17 year olds on their computers, sorry...but that is just pathetic.

Yes, we all agree the laser field is drastically changing. the days of ion systems and charging $5000 for a nightclub show after running 3 phase power and water hoses 3 miles are LONG gone. however, this is STILL a very "high end" and technical business and art form. people doing $250 shows, i dont care how good they are, is RUINING our profession. plain and simple. $250 laser shows do not belong with this profession. $250 should be the charge for rental of 2 strobe lights and a few "double derby" lights.

Many of you here are DJ's also. (as am I). How often do we see (hear) TERRIBLE DJ's at clubs? we have 15, 16, 17 year old "kids" now that have a computer and a few stolen software programs and all of a sudden they are world renowned professional DJ's. LOL. are you kidding me? I have been DJ'ing since i was 15. i have a steady sat night club spot that i have been doing for over 6 years that i get paid *PROPERLY* for. Our WORST attendance on a "dead" night is about 400-500 people. On an average night we do well over 2000. Im not trying to sound conceited or stuck up, but obviously im doing something right. Its called having pride and respect for my profession and chosen art form. No one seems to have that anymore. they are looking for the quick fix for the least amount of effort or investment and expect the outcome to be the same as someone/something that takes "professionalism" seriously.

all of the other clubs/bars and DJ's around CT. get closed down, switch DJ's and are just horrible due to the fact that owners think they are slick by hiring $100 DJ's who show up with a laptop and stolen music/software. There is no prode and no skill anymore. I get calls at least once a week to go do a "Guest spot" at another club and i ALWAYS ask now...if your budget isnt at least $500, go hire a high school kid. and what happens? shittyn ights, go through 20 dj's a year and clubs close. (yes, it really is that bad sometimes around here). The DJ will make or break a nightclub. why owners choose to go the cheap route just boggles my mind. it NEVER works!

Laser shows and laser profession is the exact same.

EF-

I think some people forget, however, that there is a whole market of people who just want to play around with laser projectors for their own enjoyment

You are 100% correct. but those people need to stay in their garages with their friends and families and NOT be out there doing shows for payments! Also, these people (as aijii said also) have NO REASON to purchase a 2.5W RGB projector. lol- whjo needs a 2W, 2.5W RGB projector in their garage?

The problem here in my opionion is the line and distinction between "Pro" and "hobbyist" is getting grayer and grayer. A "Pro" has no business buying a $2000 chinese RGB toy off of ebay and represent themselves and this equipment as "Professional." It isnt!

I cant think of too many "Professional" concert production sound companies that use "Gem Sound" for their speakers and amps can you? they sound GREAT in the basement of your fraternity brothers house while your drinkin some beers. But they have no "professional" value. And i guarantee you, if ANY of you showed up at a concert with a speaker array of "Gem Sound." you would laugh yourself out of the venue!

A "Laserist" who shows up at a show with any sort of "ebay toy" represented as "Professional" should be ashamed of themselves. Sorry. there is "PRO" and there is "HOBBYIST." there *IS* a difference. when you try to justify the fact that there isnt a difference, we ALL will suffer the consequences sooner or later.

-Marc

[ElektroFreak]

I cannot vouch for anyone who does shows illegally. At no point have I ever said people should break the law. I'm done with this bullshit because people can't fucking read plain english. If people here could read plain english we wouldn't be having a misunderstanding about what I've been saying. It's not like I haven't been clear enough.

@ Steve: I especially resent when someone who knows nothing at all of me accuses me of violating the law. You've never even met me! You're throwing some crap around you say someone told you about a guy that is nothing more than a box on your computer screen. I'm just a guy from Missouri who loves lasers. I've got two completed laser projectors and another 2 coming that I enjoy with my family and friends. Only one started off Chinese. I work as an IT and at the end of the day I go home to my wife and kids. It's just that some people here are chronically full of bullshit frankly, and it pisses me off that these people think we're all dumb enough to buy into some of this crap. I think my fuse just ran out, though. In many ways this place wouldn't know honest-to-god fact if it punched everyone in the face. Too many special interests, and people preaching their wallets full. You want to sling accusations? Then you can do that shit to my face like a man instead of online like a little bitch. You just make sure you've got your facts straight and your nuts in line when you come find me.. facts straight.. LOL right.. Whatever. I'm out.

[gottaluvlasers]

EF-

i am very confused, i dont remember accusing you of *anything* of any sort. Perhaps i am not reading my post properly? Did i miss something?

-Marc

[aijii]

You are 100% correct. but those people need to stay in their garages with their friends and families and NOT be out there doing shows for payments! Also, these people (as aijii said also) have NO REASON to purchase a 2.5W RGB projector.

I'll clarify.

They don't "NEED" 2.5 watts.

WANTing one, just "because", is a reason. A valid one ? Depends on the individual and their agenda.

But I think that if 2.5watt rgb lasers weren't available at a dollar per milliwatt then hobbyists would not be seeking them out.

[aijii]

I cannot vouch for anyone who does shows illegally. At no point have I ever said people should break the law. I'm done with this bullshit because people can't fucking read plain english. If people here could read plain english we wouldn't be having a misunderstanding about what I've been saying. It's not like I haven't been clear enough.

@ Steve: I especially resent when someone who knows nothing at all of me accuses me of violating the law. You've never even met me! You're throwing some crap around you say someone told you about a guy that is nothing more than a box on your computer screen. I'm just a guy from Missouri who loves lasers. I've got two completed laser projectors and another 2 coming that I enjoy with my family and friends. Only one started off Chinese. I work as an IT and at the end of the day I go home to my wife and kids. It's just that some people here are chronically full of bullshit frankly, and it pisses me off that these people think we're all dumb enough to buy into some of this crap. I think my fuse just ran out, though. In many ways this place wouldn't know honest-to-god fact if it punched everyone in the face. Too many special interests, and people preaching their wallets full. You want to sling accusations? Then you can do that shit to my face like a man instead of online like a little bitch. You just make sure you've got your facts straight and your nuts in line when you come find me.. facts straight.. LOL right.. Whatever. I'm out.

settle down, its only light.

[DanG]

I agree wholeheartedly, but I'm not really sure who these people are that you're referring to in this statement.

Hate to be frank with you, but until I see WAY more evidence that this industry is really and truly under threat from non-professionals/professionals that didn't buy gear from "x-laser" or OSLS or any of the folks (or their friends) with a vested monetary interest in promoting this viewpoint, I'm declaring it a bunch of hype. SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE.

Oh, and freaking out about something before there is cause to (ie evidence) is commonly referred to as paranoia. I'm not interested in paranoia.

I am not sure how you can both agree wholeheartedly and then declare it to be paranoid hype... but Ok.

I do not just come down on the Chinese... If you knew me well you would know that I would and have requested the revocation of customer variances and dropped dealers for either handling non-compliant product or using our products in a way that we felt was inappropriate. In fact, we dropped a dealer just last week for this very reason.

Compliant brands offer better build quality, stricter quality control standards, more educational resources, generally far better and more responsive customer service and any number of other attributes that positively contribute to product safety. So yes, I am always going to advocate for compliant brands but if you think that is just to help my pocket book then you are irrecoverably jaded. An X-Laser can be misused as easily as an off brand and we take great pains to ensure that does not happen.

Perhaps we have different perspectives... but I see these problems every day. I have seen TTL projectors which suffer complete galvo failure shoot full power beams straight out from the aperture. I have seen those precise units sold on eBay never having been repaired. Is that not a safety risk?

I have seen lasers sold with completely indecipherable user information that lacks any comprehendible usage warnings on top of a shoddily built product with no mechanism to deactivate the laser in case of emergency. Is that not a safety risk?

I have had - I swear to God - a laser vendor tell me to my face 1) you can only get a variance in China, 2) lasers do not emit radiation, 3) do not worry about the faulty key switch... just switch it to "On" and throw away the key, 4) of course these projectors are FDA approved but it does not matter because they are not food, etc. All of this was said to my face by the president of a laser manufacturing company in Virginia who stopped by our shop on a sales road trip. Presenting such horrendously wrong information to uneducated consumers does not present a safety risk?

I have seen a two watt laser doing a straight beam banger effect shooting down a busy street at driver's head level; the owner thought it was a good way of bringing in business because "it was impossible to miss." Other than increasing the power or making it a pulsed laser can you think of any way that could be more dangerous?

I had a guy - an industry guy with a laser background - walk up to me at a trade show and show me a 300mW 532 pointer. He bought it originally because he likes to sit on his porch and shoot any motorists he thinks are driving down his street too fast in the face to get them to jam on their brakes. When I asked him if he knew how dangerous that was he responded by saying that no one "has died yet. Ha ha."

I am sure everyone has their own stories but the evidence is all around us. Even if it wasn't, it is not paranoid to be concerned about a technology with a potential for serious injury being delivered in staggering quantities to people who have no idea how to use it safely and with only the most limited to resources with which to educate themselves.

I practice what I preach and if that also serves a commercial interest then so much the better... but if I was after a commercial interest alone we would never have dropped LaserWorld.

[ElektroFreak]

It's not paranoid to be concerned about safety, you're right and that's what I "agree wholeheartedly" about.. It IS however paranoia to promote viewpoints which DO NOT have any basis in reality or fact. IT IS ALSO PARANOIA to claim that there is excessive risk where the real-world evidence says otherwise. Evidence is king in the real world. This is simply shameless self-promotion using gratuitous amounts of FUD.

You or Steve have yet to provide a single tiny shred of real evidence to back your claims up. The evidence (or more specifically a lack thereof) which backs my claims up can be found simply by googling. Even Patrick Murphy and Greg Makhov have confirmed this lack of evidence in several ILDA papers. Your personal experiences that you claim to have had can not be verified. I could give a rat's ass what someone says to you. Find us real evidence that there is a problem. Why is that so hard? According to you guys, everyone involved with laser shows that isn't you or buying from you are risking life and limb every time we fire up a projector, and there are many, many more peole buying projectors every day. SURELY there has GOT to be a list a mile long of all the problems that have been caused. Surely that data must be EASILY found given the HUGE RISK. Right?

WRONG. The data to support these ideas doesn't exist. I've looked. I've spend hours looking. It's not there.

SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE. Do you people need me to write it out in crayon for you?

You guys can't provide evidence that there is a real-world problem because none exists. You can say "well you're just not hearing about it"... SO SHOW ME THE PEOPLE WHO ARE HEARING ABOUT IT THEN. Surely they are out there just DYING to share their experiences.

Promoting safety is of the utmost importance. Just as long as it is promoted factually, which it IS NOT in this case.

This place has more than it's share of flap-jawed con men who talk BIG talk but can't back it up. That's what I'm getting out of this..

I was going to be silent on this going forward, but since we're now making up complete nonsense (Steve) I know I must be close to something.

[gottaluvlasers]

EF-

You're a very passionate fella. And i respect that. And in all honesty i tend to agree *SOMEWHAT* on your views of the dangers with lasers. However, i believe your view that:

The data to support these ideas doesn't exist. I've looked. I've spend hours looking. It's not there

Doesn't make sense to me. Are you seriously saying that because there is no "numbers" or verifiable proof on some website on the internet there is no problem? That is a pretty silly stance to take also.

there is PLENTY of dangerous acts being done with laser projectos and lasers in general. is there solid "evidence" of it somewhere? sure, im sure there is. Do i know of any? nope. That does not mean it doesnt exist. And as you say, you have your right to believe what you want. That is fine. but you are in the DRASTIC minority to believe that these dangers and these problems do not and have not existed.

Yeah, im sure alot is "Fear Mongering." and that annoys me also. But to discredit someone because what they say is not "evidence" enough to you is your right, but doesnt make it right.

-Marc

[ElektroFreak]

EF-

You're a very passionate fella. And i respect that. And in all honesty i tend to agree *SOMEWHAT* on your views of the dangers with lasers. However, i believe your view that:



Doesn't make sense to me. Are you seriously saying that because there is no "numbers" or verifiable proof on some website on the internet there is no problem? That is a pretty silly stance to take also.

there is PLENTY of dangerous acts being done with laser projectos and lasers in general. is there solid "evidence" of it somewhere? sure, im sure there is. Do i know of any? nope. That does not mean it doesnt exist. And as you say, you have your right to believe what you want. That is fine. but you are in the DRASTIC minority to believe that these dangers and these problems do not and have not existed.

Yeah, im sure alot is "Fear Mongering." and that annoys me also. But to discredit someone because what they say is not "evidence" enough to you is your right, but doesnt make it right.

-Marc

So SOMEONE please find it if it exists. PLEASE. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. I've put in my hours of searching only to find nothing.. now it's up to the other side to support their claims.

There are several ILDA papers that clearly state that evidence of injury from above MPE audience scanning is all but non-existant. Along that same logic there would obviously be ZERO claims of injury from shows in which there is NO audience scanning. I'm to believe Steve and X-Laser over ILDA AND my own research? LOL that's rich. Not today, friends.

I'm not saying there is no risk. What I am saying is that there is a LOT of fear-mongering going on in the interest of steering US hobbyists and pros toward certain manufacturers and businesses. I'm really not sure why it's so hard to understand what exactly I'm saying.. It's very clearly written. Maybe people are missing parts of it somewhere.

I'll even do the unthinkable and post links to the documents of which I speak:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1493830/Scan...s_2009-09a.ppt

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1493830/audi...iew_latest.pdf

these docs and others can also be found here: http://www.laserist.org/safety-info.htm

AND JUST TO BE 100% CLEAR, I'M NOT SAYING THAT THERE IS NO RISK, AND NEITHER ARE THE ILDA PAPERS. It appears, though, that the risks are often blown WAY out of proportion and used as propaganda tools for US businesses and their friends, and they are also used to promote the idea that everyone but this select few individuals (or those that they approve of) are polluting the institution of laser shows in general because we all must be operating in an "unsafe" manner.

[DanG]

It's not paranoid to be concerned about safety, you're right and that's what I "agree wholeheartedly" about...This is simply shameless self-promotion using gratuitous amounts of FUD. According to you guys, everyone involved with laser shows that isn't you or buying from you are risking life and limb every time we fire up a projector, and there are many, many more peole buying projectors every day.

It is marginally against my better judgement to respond to a rant like this but I will take the bait just a little bit...

First of all, I never even remotely said "everyone involved with laser shows that isn't you or buying from you are risking life and limb every time we fire up a projector." What I was talking about was people using high powered lasers in an unsafe manner, which you agree is worthwhile to be concerned about, and in my post directly above I said that this concern applied to every such device of any brand. This has nothing to do with self-promotion - I laid out a scenario where a very public event could occur which would adversely affect the laser display industry as a whole and suggested that we all needed to be more vocal in our support of safety and compliance and more vocal against those who either recklessly, negligently or ignorantly refused to be good custodians of their responsibilities.

Everything else is in your head.

You or Steve have yet to provide a single tiny shred of real evidence to back your claims up.... WRONG. The data to support these ideas doesn't exist. I've looked. I've spend hours looking. It's not there.

First of all, you not being in the room does not invalidate the experience. Secondly, I have three of my four examples in photos or video. Thirdly, I do not make things up and I am not wild about you questioning my integrity. Fourth, you have not looked hard enough.

According to reported data compiled by RLI and reported by Laser Professionals in their CLSO training, 10% of annual laser injuries in the US effect either light show spectators or operators. In 1993 which I use as an example because it was the point at which there were an estimated 1M laser users in all fields in all applications and thus it is a reasonable starting place for a benchmark, there were 18 reported cases of injury from high powered lasers. In 1996 there were 24, 1997 saw 18 again, and 1998 as a good year saw 12. In order for a case to make it onto the report it has to be both reported and attributed to a laser.

Occult eye injuries are never reported and as Steve correctly notes most reported cases are listed as unspecified because there is no direct mechanism for reporting laser related injuries. A little bit of combing through the USAF Adverse Events database will show a dozen or more instances where aircraft or persons have been injured, most temporarily, by laser light show equipment- not pointers - and even more demonstrable and repeatable evidence of macular burns from as little as 10mW of 650nm CW laser with an exposure duration of .25 seconds which is the blink reflex time.

Moreover, it is well and widely known that the majority of laser injuries which result in thermal burns go unreported because of the same mechanism that the brain uses to fill in the vision gap caused by the cleave of the optic nerve below the macula. The dead spot is simply filled in by the brain and often goes unnoticed until eye exams later in life.

The data that these events do happen is out there as is the science behind why such events are underreported. But my original point was that it only takes one event plus the media to make a big problem.

No one is going to distinguish in the general public or media between pulsed or CW laser. No one is going to care that a dramatic injury is rare. It only takes one and unless you think that such an event is impossible, then my perspective is that an improbably possibility with a sufficiently bad outcome is worth guarding against.

If you do think it is impossible to have a major injury event from a laser show, I would be more comfortable if you confined your laser shows to your home.

This place has more than it's share of flap-jawed con men who talk BIG talk but can't back it up.

I don't think that we do have con men on here but I am sure that we do have a couple of rabble rousers.

The evidence you seek is all around you and you know exactly what I am talking about. It has nothing to do with brand and everything to do with training and responsibility.

However, since you are fond of google, I suggest that you google "availability heuristic."