Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 57

Thread: Here we go again..... Spacelas question

  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1,622

    Default

    RLI
    I have been all over that source. All but two show related injuries befell the staff of the production companies doing the shows. Those injuries do not count because they never posed any threat to the public in general. When you produce shows, you accept risks that would never apply to your audiences.

    Availability heuristic applied to this is crap. That idea applied to anything is crap. Let's get out of the realm of psychological phenomena, and into the realm of concrete fact. Stop trying to deviate.

    Once again: If I'm wrong, BLOODY PROVE IT THEN. If these things are "unreported" then clearly there can't be much of a problem. Problems get reported in all other walks of life.. only laser shows are somehow exempt? When people lose hearing at rock concerts, it gets reported. When people OD on drugs it gets reported. So laser shows just magically never get reported? Come on..

    Not only have I stated my side VERY clearly (including the 19 times that I've CLEARLY said that there are risks that are being blown out of proportion), but I've even posted links that support my theories. So far, I'm way ahead here.

    I can predict the response to my request for data: *crickets chirping*
    Last edited by ElektroFreak; 10-11-2010 at 08:31.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    320

    Default

    I was not deviating from the problem, I was explaining your problem.

    Look man, you are turning into the guy who is looking at a blue square and yelling 'It's a red circle and I am entitled to my opinion!'

    That data I referenced is from RLI and is used by Casey, Jay, Greg, Johnny and of course Rockwell themselves in their industrial training. You not being able to find it is a function of it not being published online because it is proprietary. That does not mean that it does not exist.

    Take a CLSO course and you will find that and a great deal more. Then come and walk a week in my shoes and you will not be nearly so quick to think I am being dramatic.
    Last edited by DanG; 10-11-2010 at 08:29. Reason: typo

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1,622

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by X-Laser View Post

    That data I referenced is from RLI and is used by Casey, Jay, Greg, Johnny and of course Rockwell themselves in their industrial training. You not being able to find it is a function of it not being published online because it is proprietary. That does not mean that it does not exist.
    Proprietary public safety information makes no sense whatsoever. You cannot expect people to blindly accept what you preach just because it's you and Steve that are preaching it. You guys are not Jesus or God, and to my knowledge they are the only ones that get that honor. Also, why is it that the view of ILDA seems to agree with what I'm saying? Could it be that this invisible, but well-lauded US data is not the only data that counts? Could it be that ILDA and myself are taking the whole world into account, not just US data?

    There is no blue square, only a red circle. You all are trying to be magicians and convince me that what I see clearly is not real. I'll be keeping my head FIRMLY in reality thanks.

    Once again, we're back at the point where I've taken the time to search as thoroughly as I can. I've also posted the most prominently available data to back up my claims, which includes research conducted by top ILDA personnel. Full-circle, nothing accomplished.
    Last edited by ElektroFreak; 10-11-2010 at 08:57.

  4. #44
    mixedgas's Avatar
    mixedgas is offline Creaky Old Award Winning Bastard Technologist
    Infinitus Excellentia Ion Laser Dominatus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    A lab with some dripping water on the floor.
    Posts
    9,890

    Default

    OK Electrofreak, you want the ultimate sources on laser safety, go over to the Dept of Commerce NTIS web site and order:

    Some Considerations in the Use of Lasers for Artistic Displays
    HEW Publication (FDA) (79-8082 March 1979)

    Laser Compliance Measurements Handbook.

    HEW Publication (FDA) (78-8038 March 1978)

    Analysis of Some Laser Light Show Effects for Classification Purposes

    David D. Royston, HEW Publication (FDA) 1979

    You might find a few of them if there is a designated "Federal Repository Library" in your area.

    Then say Amazon.com for
    Safety with Lasers and Other Optical Sources
    David H. Sliney and M.L. Wolbarsht, Springer -Verlag
    NY, NY, 1980

    You'll need the hazard tables in the back of Sliney
    , which can also be found in ANSI Standard Z136 or "The Performance Standard for Laser Products"

    You will then have what is needed to compute what is safe and what is not.

    We can argue then. Until then your strawman fallacy using the "No Public Data" argument falls apart.

    In engineering in the US, you pay for Technical Standards, very rarely are they free. None of US like it, but that is the way it is.

    Rockwell, Laser compliance Inc, etc have access to the data and it is pay to play, like it or not, and I'm very sure the free on line Rockwell data base has not been updated in years. LIA also probably has some data.

    You want to get medieval, you had then best study up. I have
    "Analysis" at home, the expensive Sliney is 14 miles away, and LCMH is in a somewhat restricted access library 10 minutes away. I can talk my way into access to LCMH for about 30 minutes at a time, but the parking there is 4$ per half hour and the photocopier is 17 cents a page, no cameras allowed.


    Steve






    Last edited by mixedgas; 10-11-2010 at 09:50.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1,622

    Default

    I'm not asking for textbooks on laser safety. I've already been over many of those. I understand the saftey ins and outs, and the "implications". What I am asking for is REAL WORLD actual occurrences of ocular damage TO AUDIENCE MEMBERS that has been proven to have been caused by laser show equipment of any kind. I've already been very clear on this. Most of the texts you have linked to are outdated, as is the information they contain. There was no audience scanning then (or at least comparatively little). I believe firmly that the old-fashioned, overly timid approach to laser show safety is itself outdated, and I base that on available REAL WORLD data. It's that '1979' mentality that needs to go IMO. The rest of the world has seen how things really are, and it's people like you that are keeping the US 30 years behind. If the rest of the world is not seeing a problem, then neither are we. But people here (the gov't included) refuse to change with the times, and even hard data won't convince them otherwise. I find that kind of blindness and closed-mindedness to be horrific. It's crap like that that gets in the way of our country moving forward to lead the world on ALL kinds of different levels..

    Don't hold back on me Steve.. I'm fairly sure you won't be going over my head by discussing this stuff. Bring on the "medieval" heaps of data that show that audience members worldwide have been suffering at the hands of the evil laser show audience scanners. I wait with bated breath..

    Then when you're done with that, make sure you tell ILDA about it. It would seem that they need the data too.

    Don't worry though.. little old me won't be able to change anything. All I can do is tell everyone how I feel, and why I feel the way I do, AND point out that my views on this specific subject are generally shared by the largest international group of laser show professionals. I think I've done a fine job of presenting my side of this argument. Beats anything put forth by the opposition anyway.

    I do feel that maybe we need a new thread to discuss this stuff. This thread is way past off-topic. Apologies again for my part in it.
    Last edited by ElektroFreak; 10-11-2010 at 11:01.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    2,292

    Default

    Electrofreak I have a good idea. Stare into your projector for awhile and see if it causes any problems. Best way to get real world data is to do an experiment. Let us know how it goes.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1,622

    Default

    No need, but thanks for the intelligent input. My entire point is centered on the fact that that experiment is conducted ALL THE TIME around the world, every weekend, and even sometimes during the week. Where, oh where is the data from all of those experiments? Maybe it's all crammed up Gary's (or JohnYaYas in his current form) ass. Have a look would you Gary?

    Also, it might not hurt to read everything in my posts before making ridiculous comments. You would then notice that AT NO POINT have I claimed that ALL scanned laser effects are safe. It is by no means just that simple. I'll continue to let the people here keep putting words in my mouth and continue trying to cast me in a bad light. It's complementary to me when that's all people can resort to. So far, rather than present valid data people have slandered me personally, twisted my words around and responded with asinine, mindless dribble.. among other things. LOL!! what a place this is.. I've already asked for data to directly contradict the data I've posted.. none has surfaced so far. I really think that speaks volumes more than anything I've said. I rather hope that means that someone out there is vigorously doing their homework seeking and posting that data, because until something happens to convince me otherwise I'm going with the ILDA papers as my authority on audience scanning and the risks (yes... I said RISKS) involved.
    Last edited by ElektroFreak; 10-11-2010 at 13:09.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    2,292

    Default

    I thought it was a good idea. My bad.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Grand Rapids, Mi
    Posts
    2,538

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnYayas View Post
    I thought it was a good idea. My bad.
    You forgot to state to only use one eye to stare into it, that way you still have a control for the research paper.

    leading in trailing technology

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1,622

    Default

    Well, that counts me out then.. I've only got the one left after all this time running around stealing business from all the major companies, doing audience scanned shows with my 15 laserscope projectors.. makin' the big bucks baby!! I'm just a sucker for the audience perspective. What's that they say? "No pain no gain"?


    Still waiting on some sort of worthwhile data here..


    *cricket.... cricket*

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •