View Poll Results: *read below* Should PL host a resource dedicated to safety and certification?

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  • Yes

    18 69.23%
  • No

    8 30.77%
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Thread: Poll on safety/certification information avilability on PL.

  1. #1
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    Default Poll on safety/certification information avilability on PL.

    So I've been having an enlightening discussion on the ins and outs of laser show safety and certificaton, from the perspectives of both professionals and hobbyists and it would seem that we have wildly differing ideas about these important topics.

    Due to the daunting nature of the certification process, and the complexity of laser safety, I have long believed that PL should host a resource dedicated to helping hobbyists and newcomers to this hobby get honest, factual data on safety and the certification process, free of any possible outside commercial input ("hey, you could always just buy my expensive-ass pre-certified rig" etc..._).

    Since I view safety as hugely important, I feel that the data that is available should be screened against publicly available resources for accuracy. In other words, no one just posts stuff without referencing something specific that can be seen by the public to back it up.

    Due to some discouraging responses in a few threads, and another attempt at this failing dismally, I'm highly curious as to where PL as a community stands on this.

    My question to everyone is this: Is PL the place for such a resource, given the reputation PL has as a place dedicated to following the law and conducting safe shows?

    If not, why do you feel this way? Answering this is not required, but would help everyone understand where the rest are coming from. We're a community, and I feel that this subject affects everyone.

    I also know that I've managed to make a few enemies here, (lord knows how, what with my charming demeanor and my sheep-like desire to blindly follow) so I ask that people do their best to answer honestly, without allowing outside influences to sway your feelings.

  2. #2
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    While this sounds like a GREAT idea, I have a couple of questions:

    • Who is going to manage the resource? You come across as a bit biased against some very knowledgable folks who have been around the biz (both entertainment and research) for a LONG time, and in some case have spent a lot of time and money to present ways to safely meet the current laser-related regulations. Who decides what gets posted, and what doesn't? I firmly believe that the stance taken by some of those that you don't agree with fully is to try to PREVENT accidents from happening. You're "show me" stance comes across, at times, as if to say if nothing has happened yet, why worry. (extreme simplification, but I think you get my point. I know that no one on this forum wants to see anyone, anywhere, get injured by lasers!)

    • If this does become a reality, and the "resource" leads to further bandwidth and $$ issues, what is the plan to further subsidize Admin's own time and $$ he invests into keeping this site operational?
    RR

    Metrologic HeNe 3.3mw Modulated laser, 2 Radio Shack motors, and a broken mirror.
    1979.
    Sweet.....

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuka View Post
    While this sounds like a GREAT idea, I have a couple of questions:

    • Who is going to manage the resource? You come across as a bit biased against some very knowledgable folks who have been around the biz (both entertainment and research) for a LONG time, and in some case have spent a lot of time and money to present ways to safely meet the current laser-related regulations. Who decides what gets posted, and what doesn't? I firmly believe that the stance taken by some of those that you don't agree with fully is to try to PREVENT accidents from happening. You're "show me" stance comes across, at times, as if to say if nothing has happened yet, why worry. (extreme simplification, but I think you get my point. I know that no one on this forum wants to see anyone, anywhere, get injured by lasers!)


    • If this does become a reality, and the "resource" leads to further bandwidth and $$ issues, what is the plan to further subsidize Admin's own time and $$ he invests into keeping this site operational?
    Great questions. I think that management should fall on the group collectively, or whoever they decide. I certainly am biased. You'll get no argument from me. I just want to see how people here feel about such an idea. There is way too much "I said so so it is fact" type stuff going on here IMO. The worst part is it's being publicly posted where anyone can read it. My reasons for my own bias are mine alone. I do still believe in safety..

    I don't think the resource needs to be anything more than a thread myself. Other ideas are welcome though.

    You say that these folks who run things around here believe in public safety, well here's an opportunity to put your money where your mouths are. The last attempt at anything like this fell flat in a matter days.. showing, of course, how much we all care. It's funny how much back-patting goes on amongst the tight-knit crew here. That, in a nutshell, is why I have little interest in meeting anyone here in person. I'm terrified of becoming a sheep. ("I know xxxxx personally, we play golf, so surely he/she is correct in every way ALL of the time")

    Either we are all interested in public safety and people becoming certified and doing legal shows, or we cannot complain when people are unsafe, and do uncertified shows. That's the bottom line, regardless of how ANYONE here feels about me. Either do something about the problem, or SHUT THE FUCK UP. Those are the options. Forgive me for not taking every word Steve and others here breathe as being the equivalent of an encyclopedia entry.. but personally I think such an attitude is absolutely foolish. When it comes to safety and certification, we as a community need real, verifiable fact.

    Again, DO SOMETHING *REAL* and *TANGIBLE* ABOUT THE PROBLEM, OR SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT IT for all time.
    Last edited by ElektroFreak; 10-11-2010 at 16:10.

  4. #4
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    Wow, with edits like you're adding to your replies, I'm sure you'll be encouraging a lot of active participation.

    Rants / disagreements / condescending comments aside, the initial concept is a pretty good idea, but this being an open forum, there's great potential for open disagreement regardless of what gets posted, which has just been demonstrated.

    Maybe that's why the idea never went far previously...
    RR

    Metrologic HeNe 3.3mw Modulated laser, 2 Radio Shack motors, and a broken mirror.
    1979.
    Sweet.....

  5. #5
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    I don't see what difference my attitude makes to this topic. THAT's my point. If my attitude matters when discussing safety and certification, what does that say about this place? This topic affects everyone. If we all just want to focus on the fact that EF can be a first-rate mother-f**ker, or that Steve's always right, and we base our responses on those things instead of the real facts we ignore the reality and the seriousness of the situation. If we ignore this, then we cannot bitch about however the future unfolds without ending up killing our credibility as a community. Really? You can't see this on your own?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
    I don't see what difference my attitude makes to this topic. THAT's my point. If my attitude matters when discussing safety and certification, what does that say about this place? This topic affects everyone. If we all just want to focus on the fact that EF can be a first-rate mother-f**ker, or that Steve's always right, and we base our responses on those things instead of the real facts we ignore the reality and the seriousness of the situation. If we ignore this, then we cannot bitch about however the future unfolds without ending up killing our credibility as a community. Really? You can't see this on your own?
    The attitude you're displaying now is EXACTLY the reason why I could see why many knowledgeable folks wouldn't bother to participate, at least not in a completely open forum.

    All it takes is one posting that you or someone else doesn't agree with, and the whole thing can rapidly deteriorate into point / counterpoint, FU this, FU that, blah, blah, blah...and the original intent gets lost, or becomes secondary to the bullshit, as again demonstrated here.

    But like I said - the concept is good.
    Start the thread, see what happens - maybe we'll all be pleasantly surprised!
    RR

    Metrologic HeNe 3.3mw Modulated laser, 2 Radio Shack motors, and a broken mirror.
    1979.
    Sweet.....

  7. #7
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    So ignore my opinions. You can't deny what I'm saying. If you say I'm somehow "ruining" everyone's spirit to help people, then trust me when I tell you that there wasn't much substance to that desire in the first place.

    Your post confirms everything I've ever believed about this place.. You have proven now that people here are more interested in maintaining their comfort levels than whether the public is correctly informed. Public safety has no place other than a public forum. This is where the public would naturally end up seeking such information.

    My attitude *should be* irrelevant to this..

    I'll start the thread, but that is the limit to my participation. I wouldn't want people to be distracted by my flamboyance.. I'd actually rather someone else take the initiative and do it, really, so I'll give a couple days and we'll see what happens. If I start the thread, as you know it will already be polluted by emotions, both mine and everyone's. So here's the call to arms.. no one here can deny that something needs to be done about the uncertified "cheap chinese" operators and their potentially unsafe methods. So far all I've seen from PL in terms of "doing something about it" is a lot of bitching, accusing and vilifying. I don't think anyone can deny that something should be done. So what will be done? More bitching and dwelling on how much EF sucks?
    Last edited by ElektroFreak; 10-11-2010 at 16:38.

  8. #8
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    Actually, I care little about your opinions -

    It's the foul-mouthed, immature, "yeah, i know I'm an asshole - so what" approach you seem to revel in that gets old.

    Several very knowledgeable folks have OPENLY posted in the name of PUBLIC SAFETY on this forum several times, only to be met by the reponses that have been demonstrated in this thread. Those responses can rapidly turn well-meaning posts into what looks like just another round of mindless BS, which is probably what is going to be noticed by a newcomer to the forum looking for accurate information.

    Like I mentioned -
    The concept is good - give it a try.
    Keep the BS "I'm an asshole" commentary in check, and maybe it will go somewhere positive.
    RR

    Metrologic HeNe 3.3mw Modulated laser, 2 Radio Shack motors, and a broken mirror.
    1979.
    Sweet.....

  9. #9
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    100% in agreement with Stuka on all counts.

  10. #10
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    Whatever, my friend. If you want to put all this on me, go ahead. Have fun with all the little guys stealing your business and ruining your scene. You know it is inevitable now. If you can't see past me and my attitude to fix it, then we really are screwed. Only it's not that we're screwed by the influx of inexperience alone.. we're screwed by this group's shallow inability to cope with someone like me challenging your established routine. Kind of petty, don't you think? To base the inaction of a whole community on your petty feelings toward someone you've never met? And by the way, thank you for making my point so eloquently. I couldn't have done it with you... (and you too Gary, you little sh*t lol!)

    I only can hope and pray that someone here sees things with a bit more seriousness and tries to do something to create a resource to help people.. I can't see any other way of solving this problem other than easily accessible, accurate AND VERIFIABLE fact promotion. A resource which should be immediately seen by any newcomer and easily found by everyone, n00bs to pros. The people you refer to Stuka have not been able to back their views up when challenged.. not very verifyable. They may have been 100% correct, but this data needs to be verifiable. That's key to the whole idea. Otherwise how do we know it's really factual given the amount of emotion that runs around here?

    If anyone here has a better idea about ways to help this problem, please feel free to share your thoughts.
    Last edited by ElektroFreak; 10-11-2010 at 17:05.

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