Poll on safety/certification information avilability on PL.

[ElektroFreak]

Fair enough about the barrier, I'll give you that. i couldn't prove otherwise.. But if you think that the complexity of the process has nothing to do with the black market, you're delusional.. no offense.. just being honest. Look at the drug war.. it's fueled by the legislation behind it. The same applies here. The legislation makes the process overly complex, which frustrates people so they ignore it. Apparently, based on posts here from time to time, some very big names in the biz are guilty of succumbing to the frustration..

[DanG]

I draw a distinction between the black market and the grey market.

The black market is fueled almost exclusively by people who either don't know that the rules exist, don't know what the rules are and don't care because they do not see enforcement, or just assume that the rules must just not apply because such projectors are SO easy to get.

When we get into the grey market which is indeed mired in frustration and paperwork issues, then we have a very different story. The big folks who are buying and re-selling non-compliant things and/or are only skirting the law to do so. They are deeply frustrated and with good reason.

But they are not the ones buying the absolute junk and trying to get it into the hands of every high school Dj in the country. Those are the people I worry about with their $2,000 2 watt RGB projectors sold to a 17 year old kid with a ponytail and a dream.

[ElektroFreak]

Crime is black and white.

[ElektroFreak]

WOW.. I thought about it and I'm blown away. Would you really compromise your ethics by inventing a "grey area" to give you a convenient place to stuff people who break the law but do it under what you consider "favorable" conditions? Holy shit... here I am being an asshole for all I'm worth and you'll just hand me reasons to hold contempt. I'm working too hard. Amazing.

[Eidetic]

Ahh, I see we have two posts..


*EFs fading a little.. fading away... but just a little......... fading..... back again... fading..... back again... well, gonna need a little more effort I think.

LOL!!!! you guys will never really do anything about this.. mark my words. You'll sit with your buddies and carry on about how much it sucks, but god forbid anything really get done. You'll go on and on about how it's all EFs (and everyone else's) fault because that's what you all do. Don't you think I might be an asshole on purpose? Don't you think it might all be to prove a point? Once I figured the funny little "insider" game out here, it was all gravy after that. Not much of a stretch to be an asshole, and I'm well past the "take it or leave it" stage. Hell, every word in this thread was placed purposefully to make a point: That people here talk a big game online when other people aren't afraid to speak out with alternate views and thoughts, but when it comes time to really do what it takes to see to it that the public is as well-educated as possible, there's nothing there but air, Gary making jokes and a couple people spouting off their version of *fact*, whatever that may be. Certainly not a resource with verifiable information, kept factual for the benefit of the public.

fading................ fading......... just...............a................little........ .............more...... effort......... put..........that.............money......where.... ..............yo................mouth.........is.

And YOU led the effort to drum ME out of LPF!!! What a hypocritical "asshole", despite my agreement with your exercise in futility. When a person chooses to pay their mortgage by doing what others do as a hobby, you have to understand their hesitance to create competition. The safety information you seek is all available to the public. Do your own homework. Be happy someone here will give you a pinout for an unknown cable for free. Be happy we don't just slam the door in your face for disagreement, like you and your power trippin' buddy at Skywalker Ranch do.

[ElektroFreak]

LOL... 15chars.

[DanG]

I don't think it is compromising my ethics to say that there are two major categories of breaking the law one of which, in my book is worse, than the other. Criminal law draws these distinctions as well: there are degrees of robbery, assault, murder, etc. If you kill someone the law takes into account the circumstances and adjusts penalties accordingly: involuntary manslaughter, man. 1, man. 2, second degree murder, first degree murder, first degree murder with special circumstances, first degree murder with a hate crime enhancement, and so forth.

I think it would be grossly unfair to lump people who are hamstrung by a complex system and are trying to follow the rules but still need to make a living into the same category as people who flagrantly disregard them without a care as to consequence.

For an example:

A vendor imports non-compliant product and sells it forcing the buyer to become the manufacturer in the eyes of the law thereby saddling them with myriad criminal and civil liabilities they may not even know about. Very bad.

A vendor makes a compliant product, files a product report and has to deliver the product to his customer before getting approval to introduce it into commerce. Less bad.

A customer buys a compliant product and has to file a show report amendment due to a strange installation but cannot wait a year or so for approval. The show is compliant by objective measures but the customer's variance does not yet allow for that particular use. Less bad.

A customer buys a compliant product, files for a variance and then proceeds to ignore the variance terms and shoot it at a crowd of middle school kids. Very bad.

These kinds of variations apply in broad ways to the whole marketplace and I think that giving those who are trying to do things the right way some credit for it is appropriate.

[ElektroFreak]

While I sort of understand what you're saying, there's no justifying that crap to me, not give the amount of BS I've just been involved in because everyone feels so strongly about people who BREAK THE LAW. Either you do it right, or you don't. Anything else is a crock of shit and REALLY makes me wonder what other ethical missteps might be made between buddies.. if you know what I mean. You're either on the right side of that fence or your not. There is no difference between a complete newbie doing a show illegally and you or any other established company doing a show illegally. There is never a gray area, and the fact that you believe that there is I find disturbing.

[DanG]

I agree that you have a pick a side of the fence and I agree that breaking the law is breaking the law.

However, my standard is simply this: If you are using objectively compliant equipment and performing your shows in a consistently objectively compliant and safe manner then everything else is just paperwork. Important paperwork which is both essential and needs to be done, but paperwork nonetheless.

Personally - and I in no way am speaking for the company or anyone else - I can give a guy who was late on his annual report a pass in favor of focusing enforcement onto the guy illegally crowd scanning. I think most of the FDA people would agree.

There are lots of things that can get administratively fouled up in a system this complex but what they have expressed to me and I agree with is what they look for is safety first and foremost, and secondly a genuine effort to be compliant.

I agree that the law is the law but especially considering the limited enforcement resources at FDA, they have to prioritize what they choose to care about with safety being at the top of the list. For my own part I don't think it is unethical to display a level of care about an issue relative to the seriousness of the issue.

[ElektroFreak]

Look, x-laser.. I will say that you are patient and intelligent, and as I said in another thread I respect that immensely. I also don't think badly of you or anyone here as people, I'm sure you're all fine folks. I'm not compatible with the ideals (and occasional lack of) present here. I've known that since I joined here, and it was fun ride but it's done now. I'm weary of these games, and I feel like this place drags me down with the muck of egos, greed, and purposeful disinformation that has become frequent here. Let's get that thread going so I can get out of here.

I could care less what people do with their projectors as long as they strive for safety. As I said, I'm not the laser police.. but if people are going to go on and on about safety and legality, then they had better be consistent. You lose consistency, and you lose credibility.