Feeble output from FB3

[smokeAndMirrors]

Perhaps I could ask the inverse question. Given I have an FB3 (running LiveQuick FWIW), is there an RGB laser projector, power ~1W, cost ~£1000 that I can buy that will perform well?

[300EVIL]

Can't I just buy a laser that *works* without requiring a degree in photonics, dammit?!

Sure you can. Instead of buying a cheap Chinese projector, spend $10K on a quality 1W RGB and hire a laserist to run it.

You must understand, 10 years ago none of this was available for the prices we are seeing today. Today any Joe Schmo can buy a laser projector on ebay for pennies on the dollar and get something that used to cost $10K a decade ago.

All these newbs, like yourself, are comparing being a laserist to owning a Ipod. It should just work, right!

Wrong!

Your car analogy does not fit. You have purchased two separate components from different companies. One is a quality product the other has issues. I'll let you guess which one.

Instead of blaming Pangolin, you should be blaming the cheap projector you bought. If you can't take the time to investigate your problem, you should probably leave the lasers to someone who can.

[smokeAndMirrors]

Sure you can. Instead of buying a cheap Chinese projector, spend $10K on a quality 1W RGB and hire a laserist to run it.

You must understand, 10 years ago none of this was available for the prices we are seeing today. Today any Joe Schmo can buy a laser projector on ebay for pennies on the dollar and get something that used to cost $10K a decade ago.

All these newbs, like yourself, are comparing being a laserist to owning a Ipod. It should just work, right!

Wrong!

Your car analogy does not fit. You have purchased two separate components from different companies. One is a quality product the other has issues. I'll let you guess which one.

Instead of blaming Pangolin, you should be blaming the cheap projector you bought. If you can't take the time to investigate your problem, you should probably leave the lasers to someone who can.

It's just this sort of unhelpful, passive-aggressive sycophantic crapola that puts newbies off websites like this. Please go have an elitist circle-jerk with your mates rather than posting something insulting.

[norty303]

power ~1W, cost ~£1000 that I can buy that will perform well?

I think you may be expecting too much for your money (nothing wrong with having expectations of good product at a competitive price, but there are limits...)

I don't know what size modules you're using in the projector, but to give it some perspective, my projectors (rated powers, not actuals) are 300mW 532, 350mW 640, 600mW 445 using 25k scanset. Total power ~1.25W

Total cost for components (not case, wiring, engineering I did myself, fans, dichros, etc) was ~£1300. There's probably another £150 of optics in there.

So you can see 'how' they might build your projector down to a £1k end price, but you can also see where they might cut costs to allow margins along the way.

It's just this sort of unhelpful, passive-aggressive sycophantic crapola that puts newbies off websites like this.

To be honest, he is sort of telling it like it is.

You could go and buy a performance exhaust for your car, and fit it yourself, but it may run lean and blow a piston crown or something. A professional performance fitter would/should retune the car approriately.
I know that if I buy a cheap laser, I'm saving some money because I'll probably have to put in some effort along the way of my own (adding the value, so to speak)

If I'd paid Kvant my hard earned dollar, I'd be more inclined to leave it to them.

[smokeAndMirrors]

I think you may be expecting too much for your money (nothing wrong with having expectations of good product at a competitive price, but there are limits...)

I don't know what size modules you're using in the projector, but to give it some perspective, my projectors (rated powers, not actuals) are 300mW 532, 350mW 640, 600mW 445 using 25k scanset. Total power ~1.25W

Total cost for components (not case, wiring, engineering I did myself, fans, dichros, etc) was ~£1300. There's probably another £150 of optics in there.

So you can see 'how' they might build your projector down to a £1k end price, but you can also see where they might cut costs to allow margins along the way.

£1400 would not be a problem. £2000 might be. £3000 would. Hence my "~" :-)

[norty303]

Really, your route now (unless someone comes here and says 'Wow, I've tried this one and its great!') is through trial and error of purchasing a unit and seeing how it performs. Unfortunately that'll invariably be a costly exercise in returns to China, etc for the ones that don't work out.

Also, don't forget that there is no substitute for 'horses' in this game, the bigger the better (and by that I mean the better wavelengths, not just the power)

One thing you don't say, is between the 2 projectors you have, what wavelengths they are using. It could be that the 1W one is using 100mW 532, 800mW 660 and 100mW 473, whilst the 900mW one could be using 300mW 532, 300mW 640 and 300mW 445

It's not hard to see how the lower power one might appear brighter under those terms.

In that respect, you DO need to know a bit about what's under the hood (a bit like knowing why a 16v engine might be better than an 8v one when buying a car - to return to the analogy)

I cut the total output power of my projector by 700mW when I changed from 650 to 640 red, but the output is perceptibly the same.

[Insanity]

I have to say that I agree with 300Evil and the others here...

My RGB laser has a total CW output of 2.9 watts.

1.5 watt @ 532
500 mw @ 445
300 mw @ 473
600 mw @ 640

Once the colour palette is balanced (way too much green ATM) and under modulation, I measure 1.7 watts off the scanners. This is because I have had to turn down the green to get a balance, added to the fact that the lasers are no longer constantly on and are in fact flashing. Even a single beam effect will contain blanking points, so the laser is no longer always on.

I built this system before the 445 price crash and the whole projector cost somewhere in the region of £8000. Then consider the hours spent building and fine tuning. I would not expect anywhere near this quality if buying a pre made unit for say £3000.

Typically, cheaper units contain less reliable modules, cheap optics and scanning systems and are usually held together with glue. Chances are, everything is not perfectly alligned inside the projector which again will have huge impact on its output. A fat red laser spilling over the scanner mirrors, will loose you loads of power for example.

Take our friends at laserworld: You buy a 1 watt RGB system, is it delivering 1 watt off the scanners? I very much doubt it. Buy one from HB or similar manufacturer and you will pay far more, but you will be seeing at least a watt. At the end of the day, you get what you pay for.

You have a Pangolin controller, which may not be top of the range in comparison with the QM2000, but nonetheless is a high quality unit. You connect that controller to a cheap projector and are not happy with the output, my bet would be that the cheap projector is the problem and not the controller.

As we all say on this forum, "Lasers ain't cheap"

You can build a 2 watt 445nm module for a few hundred quid these days. Will it compare to a 2 watt 460nm Coherent Taipan OPS Laser, costing close to £17,000? I very much doubt it...

I would be inclined to feed 5v to each module and measure the output at aperture, after each dichro and after scanners. I think you might find your losses straight away. And then using a thermopile meter, measure the combined output CW and then under modulation using the LaserMedia test pattern reduced to a dot and you will then see the difference between moduated and CW output...

Just my 2p

Mark

[smokeAndMirrors]

If the consensus - reached without a single objective measurement, mind - is that "the projector is naff" then of course I'd be prepared to accept that. Why wouldn't I?

Can't help but feel I've wandered into a Closed Shop though.

[norty303]

I think you've closed your mind to some of the details as its easier to hit it with your 'closed shop' stick.

For instance, my bit about wavelengths used in the projectors you're comparing is completely relevant - tell us what we're working with here? (albeit blindly - you can't complain that no objective measurements have been taken, when you ask a question on an internet forum, its the nature of the beast - people will offer their views based on their prior knowledge - provide more data, people will modify their viewpoint)

So, enlighten us with some more details, and we'll endeavour to enlighten you with where to look next. But there ain't going to be no magic wand waving....

I don't believe you answered my question previously about how the 900mW one looks on the FB3 either?
Also, how does the 1W look on DMX or standalone? Brighter or about the same as the FB3?

I'm trying to work out if the projector is just dim naturally, or only as a result of the FB3 modulation.


P.S. I also think you're naturally displaying the symptoms of someone who has shelled out ~£1500 on projector and controller and are slightly less than impressed with the end results. It's a lot of money, but not really in the laser world... MY second projector was just the same - I sent it back, but in hindsight it was exactly what I'd paid for.

[smokeAndMirrors]

I think you've closed your mind to some of the details as its easier to hit it with your 'closed shop' stick.

No, I'm absolutely fucking livid because of 300Evil's nasty little post. And then Mark - who lives 100 yards from where I work, had half a mind to walk up the road and bollock him - agreeing with him.

You have always been helpful here norty, even when I wasn't exactly rational myself. I have no complaints about you.

I'm gonna take a close look at the projector when I get a chance. Hopefully it's a simple problem (first check is scan block alignment, that's caught me ought a couple of times in the past!). I'll report back when I'm less pissed off