Recomended DAC?

[Pangolin]

Hi Guys,

Although I was not welcomed to this forum as James was, I hope you will not mind me rendering an opinion, especially when it concerns our product.

For those who do not know me, my name is William Benner and I am President of Pangolin Laser Systems. Pangolin has been in the business of laser display since 1986 (20 years) and we have worked within ILDA towards the creation of several industry standards, including the projector standard and data interchange file format (the so-called ILDA format).

I sometimes hate to disagree with people, at the risk of seeming like a know-it-all. But I hope my comments will be taken seriously, even if there is disagreement by some.

First let me say that what Spec wrote about standards is not entirely true. There ARE standards. There is a standard for how to build a projector, and that is called the ISP, which stands for ILDA Standard Projector. There is a standard regarding how image data can be stored and interchanged between various software systems, and that is called the ILDA Image Data Interchange Format, or simply the ILDA format for short. And there are standards about how data would be recorded and played back from various recording means (such as ADAT) as well as DMX Channel Assignment standards. As far as I know, all of these are published, and available on the ILDA web site at www.laserist.org.

Second, I hope Spec doesn't mind me continually disagreeing with him but I don't think Pangolin's "DACs" suck. I think they are quite good, and apparently so do many other laserists around the world. We have laser products at almost all price ranges, including a price that a hobbiest can afford ($599) and this includes a VERY capable laser controller board (much more than just a "DAC") and creation/live control software. I already wrote a bit about that product here:
http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...pic.php?p=3074
(scroll near the bottom of the page)

Third, once again, hating to disagree with Spec, but our "LDB/LDA" format is niether new, nor a "jacked up version of Macromedia FLASH". FYI: LDA is our acronym for "Lasershow Designer for the Amiga" and it was devised by us in 1986 -- long before FLASH was a gleam in anyone's eye. LDB is our acronym for "Lasershow Designer for IBM" and was devised by us in 1992 -- again, long before FLASH. These formats are specifically conceived from the ground up as laser-only formats. Our newest and most powerful format conceived in 1999 is what we call the LDS format, for "Lasershow Designer Secure". In addition to point data, this format includes a lot of advanced frame information including preferred scan rate, preferred projection area, preferred color palette, clip art category, frame type, and even some laser safety information. Prior to the development of our Lasershow Converter FLASH product, we never even looked at the FLASH file format. But I can tell you that the FLASH file format is really convoluted and not really appropriate for laser display data.

I could continue to disagree with Spec, but let me turn my attention to Yaddatrance for the moment First let me say that I agree with what Yaddatrace wrote -- that "Pangolin works". Of course, I am biased I will slightly disagree with what Yadda wrote about DMX. Actually, as of version 4.0, we support both DMX Input and DMX Output. Our DMX Output support is very unique and non-classical. As such, at first glance it might seem strange. But it does work and it does get the job done. It is being used by clients all over the world to control not only lasers, but also moving lights, water fountains, slide projectors and all kind of other things. I will say again that it is a unique and non-classical approach, but it is the only approach that allows laserists to think about lights and fountains and fog machines and slide projectors and other things exactly in the same way as they do regular laser frames. For that reason, once setup, you can make a show with lights, foggers, fountains, slide projectors and other DMX-controlled items in the same way as you make a laser show. Also, to the best of my knowledge, it is the most comprehensive support for DMX Output of any laser software product.

Regarding YaddaTrance's comments about "forget doing any revolutionary mindblowing shows".... oh, I don't know. I would say that, since most ILDA Award Winning laser shows are done with Pangolin software, at least the artistic judges felt that they were at least a tiny bit revolutionary or mindblowing from time to time... I certainly invite anyone to come to the office at Pangolin and we will show you our software or the nearly 100 shows that currently are distributed with our software (many of which are award-winning), and if this South Eastern meeting of laser enthusiasts comes to pass, I will certainly be there, and will be happy to show anyone interested our software, how it works, as well as many laser shows that, at least some of which I personally would consider to be revolutionary and mindblowing...

Also, YaddaTrance made another mistake in his posting. Although Pangolin acquired LAStudio (which we have since distributed for free oh-by-the-way), we have not acquired Utopia and we have no plans to do so. Nor do we plan on acquiring anyone else. Actually, the acquisition of LAStudio was only a side-effect of having hired the two main programmers who worked on that project. When we find someone smart, we try to hire them, or otherwise engage in a consulting relationship. The guys who created LAStudio believed in our vision and so they came on board. In fact, at this time, we have programmers working with us from Slovenia, Ukraine, Germany, Poland and the US. I believe we have a true world-class team dedicated only to the creation of laser and display-related software. This only benefits you -- the end-user, because we have the benefit of some very smart people, from diverse parts of the world who thus contribute diverse thinking. What results is a well-rounded product.

Anyway, getting back to standards, there are standards and there are free software (including some from Pangolin). There are open-source projects and there are proprietary projects. Really there is more than enough to go around and keep people busy.

Best regards,

William Benner
Pangolin Laser Systems

[eric343]

Actually, as of version 4.0, we support both DMX Input and DMX Output. Our DMX Output support is very unique and non-classical. As such, at first glance it might seem strange. But it does work and it does get the job done. It is being used by clients all over the world to control not only lasers, but also moving lights, water fountains, slide projectors and all kind of other things. I will say again that it is a unique and non-classical approach, but it is the only approach that allows laserists to think about lights and fountains and fog machines and slide projectors and other things exactly in the same way as they do regular laser frames. For that reason, once setup, you can make a show with lights, foggers, fountains, slide projectors and other DMX-controlled items in the same way as you make a laser show. Also, to the best of my knowledge, it is the most comprehensive support for DMX Output of any laser software product.

Is your DMX support then designed to replace the traditional digital lighting console with its cues?

[Pangolin]

Hi Eric,

You can do two things with the LD2000 system and DMX. If you use DMX coming Into LD2000 (what we would call DMX Input), then a lighting desk can control both lasers AND lights. When controlling the lasers in this way, it is very flexible and in fact, you can actually dictate your own DMX channel assignment. Using the multi-track capability of LivePRO, you can even emulate four virtual moving light fixtures in laser.

If you want LD2000 to control DMX devices (what we would call DMX Output), then you can setup DMX Fixtures in the "Frame list" that you can drag and drop onto the Showtime timeline, or call up in ST:Live. When used in this way, it could loosely be said to be a "replacement" for a traditional lighting console as you suggest. However, the LD2000 series is first a laser controller and second a lighting controller. Because of that, the way in which lights are controlled are more like how lasers are controlled. It's hard to explain in an email... but in any case, we have clients who are doing their entire shows including lasers, lights, fountains and slide projectors all with just a single PC running Showtime. You can see some information on DMX Output here:
http://www.pangolin.com/LD2000/dmx-e..._in_ld2000.htm

Note that this information is slightly outdated, since it doesn't mention DMX Input.

Best regards,

William Benner
Pangolin Laser Systems

[liteglow]

Hi there Pangolin, and welcome to this forum
(i notice in a post that you did not get a welcome post)

Well the reason can be that many of the users here dont write here every day, all the time
And the other reason is that you just sneeked in here with no presentation :roll:

Do you have any scanners\setup\system home that you use for yourself ??
It can be nice if you have any pictures...

Maybe you have some pictures from "inside" pangolin :roll:

It`s cool to have you in here.. and I hope you enjoy your stay
I think most of the ppl like pangolin and most ppl know they got the best stuff

But ONE huge reason that I dont like pangolin is that the stuff cost to much
I did buy software including 12bit USB DAC for only 450Dollar (can Pangolin mach that?)


Well enjoy your stay and plz visit the gallery to se the pictures we have t share


Filip

Norway

[Pangolin]

Hi Flip,

Thanks for the welcome. As for pictures, there are a pretty good number on our web site at:
http://www.pangolin.com

We have some generic laser pictures plus some pretty good articles in our Laser Resource section which can be found here:
http://www.pangolin.com/resguide00.htm

As Spec pointed out, I think we are actually lacking a bit in the picture department. In addition to more screen shots of our software, it might also be good to have pictures of our office. We currently occupy three separate offices (in three separate countries). Let me see if we can get some pictures of the offices up on our site.

Regarding not liking Pangolin because of price, heck, that's not a good reason Mercedes Benz automobiles are out of my price range, but that is no reason for me to dislike them...

We can't match $450 in quantity of one piece, but we can get as low as $599 for our Flashback 3 Evaluation kit (mentioned a few other places in this forum). This includes hardware and software and we believe it is quite powerful. Prices go down dramatically with increases in quantity. Also, this isn't just a dumb DAC board but is a full intelligent laser controller that supports removable media, and can be triggered by TTL, RS-232 serial, DMX-512 or USB 2.0. Actually probably your $450 solution is not USB 2.0, right?

One thing I will say is perhaps obvious. Pangolin is not just one guy working out of a garage somewhere. Pangolin is 8 full time people working out of three separate offices. We are a real company with real employees and real overhead. This is of course good and bad. The good part is that we are dedicated to making software and hardware for the laser display industry. What you might call the "bad" part is that our costs may be higher than the one-man company. But then, my belief is that the capabilities and quality are also better. Another thing is that we are a member of the USB Special Interest Group (as well as the PCI Special Interest Group and IEEE) so we have a *legitimate* Vendor ID. This is not cheap... I can't speak to your particular vendor, but my suspicion is that some others are basically riding the coat-tails of someone else's USB Vendor ID.

We might not be able to please everyone but I am happy that we do apparently please a pretty large number of people, and we try to contribute productively to this industry, even when it doesn't make us any direct money.

Best regards,

William Benner
Pangolin Laser Systems

[eric343]

Hi Flip,

Thanks for the welcome. As for pictures, there are a pretty good number on our web site at:
http://www.pangolin.com

We have some generic laser pictures plus some pretty good articles in our Laser Resource section which can be found here:
http://www.pangolin.com/resguide00.htm

By the way, you guys deserve commendation as one of the few companies in the business that have useful information on your website. While most people stick to sales and possibly support information, the Laser Show Resource guide is useful even for people who can't afford Pangolin!

As Spec pointed out, I think we are actually lacking a bit in the picture department. In addition to more screen shots of our software, it might also be good to have pictures of our office. We currently occupy three separate offices (in three separate countries). Let me see if we can get some pictures of the offices up on our site.

You mean you guys aren't just running out of a suburban garage?!

In all seriousness, I seem to remember Pangolin having a video of a particularly impressive beam show on their website, with the caveat that the beam show was projected onto a wall in the video and no beams were actually visible! While interesting from a laserist's perspective, it was a little lacking in the dramatic impact department... Given the Dazzler/Discoscan videos showing some rather dramatic beam effects, the quote on the beam show's page "We have not yet videotaped the beams directly because we don't yet have all the equipment to do this well" suggests an update may be in order.

Regarding not liking Pangolin because of price, heck, that's not a good reason Mercedes Benz automobiles are out of my price range, but that is no reason for me to dislike them...

I don't think anyone dislikes the software as a whole because of price. Rather, it's the price that's the object of dislike.

We can't match $450 in quantity of one piece, but we can get as low as $599 for our Flashback 3 Evaluation kit (mentioned a few other places in this forum). This includes hardware and software and we believe it is quite powerful. Prices go down dramatically with increases in quantity. Also, this isn't just a dumb DAC board but is a full intelligent laser controller that supports removable media, and can be triggered by TTL, RS-232 serial, DMX-512 or USB 2.0. Actually probably your $450 solution is not USB 2.0, right?

Can the Flashback be used as an outboard DAC (i.e. with live shows), or do the frames always need to be pre-loaded?

Another thing is that we are a member of the USB Special Interest Group (as well as the PCI Special Interest Group and IEEE) so we have a *legitimate* Vendor ID. This is not cheap... I can't speak to your particular vendor, but my suspicion is that some others are basically riding the coat-tails of someone else's USB Vendor ID.

I think you're probably right. Would you mind elaborating on where and why a vendor ID is useful?

[Pangolin]

Hi Eric,

Thanks for pointing out that we need to update a rather obviously outdated remark on our website. If you wouldn't mind, could you please send me a private email with the page where you found the erroneous comment?

Regarding the Flashback 3 with USB 2.0, yes, absolutely you can stream data to this system in real time. This happens both from our included free utility software as well as with a special implementation of LivePRO. As time runs, more Pangolin software will be able to run directly on the Flashback 3, such as most of our Lasershow Converter series products.

Regarding the Vendor ID, the problem is that if multiple people are using the same Vendor ID, or trying to piggy-back onto another company's Vendor ID, what can happen is that when you plug in your USB laser controller, Windows (or whatever OS) might think that it is really something else -- for example, really a video capture device, or an iPod. The USB Special Interest Group assigns each company (who can pay to become a member) a unique Vendor ID to prevent this. By joining the USB SIG, it also provides an envoy to an official USB label. If you are not a member of the SIG and don't have your own Vendor ID, you can not *legitimately* put a USB logo on your product. So Vendor ID is partially about legitimacy, and partially about keeping the user from potentially experiencing problems (another way of saying legitimacy).

Best regards,

William Benner
Pangolin Laser Systems

[buffo]

Some good information in this thread! I'd like to comment on a few things that Bill brought up about Pangolin...

First, I think that most laserists agree that Pangolin owns the lion's share of the market. Also, being the 800 lb gorrilla, they are the easy target to pick on.

Having said that, I do agree with the one issue that many Pangolin users seem to grumble about - and that is the high price of the Pangolin Software. Everyone expects the hardware to be expensive, but when the software costs as much or more than the controller, to say nothing of the laser itself, well - that is a real barrier for the hobbyist.

I have no doubt that Pangolin's position as a market leader is because they produce quality hardware *and* software, and that they offer great support after the sale. However, to use the Mercedes analogy, while I would certainly be very happy if someone GAVE me a Mercedes - when I go to BUY a car I look at more humble offerings.

The bottom line is that many other car manufacturers build cars that perform quite admirably, even when compared to what Mercedes offers. To an extent, you are paying a premium for that Mercedes Star hood ornament.

Unfortunately, until recently the laser show market did not offer the same list of viable alternatives to Pangolin. I think this is one factor that has helped keep the price of Pangolin hardware (and especially their sofware) high. But that is starting to change.

I don't mean to say that Pangolin is gouging its customers; I believe that they have every right to charge whatever they feel the market will bear. But I also believe that the high cost of their software has spurred the development of lower-cost alternatives (like Mamba black) that are better suited for the hobbyist market.

If Pangolin is really interested in the hobbyist market, then they must recognize that price is a *huge* factor.

I'd love to be using Pangolin software. Heck, right now I'd be happy to be using Mamba Black. I've run into some serious problems with the Alphalite software, and so far Rick Gebhardt has been unable to resolve the issues. I will likely be upgrading my controller and my software later this summer. But I don't have an unlimited budget...

The things that are important (to me at least, but probably to all hobbyists) are:
1) Clean output. (No hot spots, no stuttering! 8 bit is fine, 16 bit is better.)
2) RGB Color output. (Prefer analog.)
3) Ability to sync a show to music. (Crucial!)
4) Ability to switch frames/animations in real time. (Live performance)
5) Good editor tools (Onion skin, tween, translations, abstracts, etc.)
6) Easy to use interface for show design/layout. (video timeline layout = good!)
7) Compatibility with other file formats. (at least be able to load/save to ILDA.)

Right now there are several packages on the market that satisfy these requirements, including Pangolin's offerings, JMLaser's offerings, and any of the X-29/Full-auto et al offerings. And honestly, based on my own research and the testimony of other users, the software from JMlaser looks to be the best bang for the buck. But I haven't made up my mind just yet.

One of the reasons I'm looking forward to SELEM is that we already have several people comitted to the event that will be bringing their own setups. We have Pangolin users, LDS users, Mamba black users, X-29 users, and even a few folks that will be showing up with custom hardware/software setups. (Truth be told, there will also be a few of us lowly Alphalite users there, hoping to not make complete fools of ourselves!)

The intent is really to be more like a geek-fest/LAN party than a trade show. Lots of us less-experienced hobbyists are looking forward to a weekend of rubbinig elbows with the pros and soaking up as much knowledge as we can. But I know that I'll also be taking notes about the strenghts and weaknesses of each and every projector there - and using that information to help me decide which controller/software combo to purchase next.

Adam

[Pangolin]

Hi Buffo,

Thanks for the thoughtful comments. I agree with most of what you said, but I do want to comment on the perceived high price of our software.

I do take issue with the argument of the price of the Mercedes emblem. I am sure some people think that part of the cost is the "perceived value" and has nothing to do with the engineering, quality, or reliability, but I believe that this is not the case. Although I don't own a Mercedes myself, I have a few friends who do, and who swear by the quality and reliability of the Mercedes when compared with other cars.

Likewise, when comparing Pangolin to other brands, I can assure you that our cost structure is not based on what the market will bear, but rather what we need in order to keep Pangolin (and this industry) moving forward. Everything that we do costs money, including joining professional organizations like IEEE and the USB Special Interest Group. Also, of the laser hardware manufacturers being discussed here recently, as far as I know, only Pangolin has obtained CE Certification for laser hardware (a process which is time consuming and very costly). Theoretically, it is against the law to sell hardware into Europe that is not CE Certified. And those who sell non-CE hardware are putting not only themselves at risk of criminal prosecution, but also their customers as well!! Pangolin has a lot of clients and we want to be able to sleep well at night, knowing that we are not engaging in practices that put our customers or ourselves at risk.

What's more, if you look at the innovative products and techniques being developed in this industry, they usually start on the Pangolin platform, and then fan outward as they become imitated by others. Our Lasershow Converter MAX plug-in is just one example. Pangolin developed this technology in late 2000 and to this day, our LC-MAX plug-in is used to produce two out of three ILDA Award entries. To date there has been one company to develop a competing product (at 3.5 times the price)! It cost Pangolin around $125,000 to initially develop this product. Can something like LC-MAX have been developed by a garage operation (no matter how large the garage)?

Another example is the shows that we include, even with our lowest-cost LD2000 INTRO system. As I was reading other posts on this forum, one person estimated that if you were to purchase the laser shows alone, it would equal the cost of our software. Well, I haven't yet taken the time to add it up (but I will soon, because curiosity is getting the best of me), but I can tell you for sure that the cost of these shows is well over $100,000. For example, Pangolin paid Lightspeed around $12,500 to produce the Creation show for us, and we also paid Laser Entertainment Milan another $12,500 to produce the Europe show for us. That's just two shows, and yet it is the equivalent of around $25,000. With the LD2000 4.0 release (even the Intro release) we will be including nearly 100 shows, a large portion of these shows being award winners, and some with royalty-free music. In addition, thanks to a recent deal, we will be including the entire Lightspeed Laser Animation Library FREE -- even with LD2000 Intro. Initially, Lightspeed sold this animation collection for around $5000, and I have never heard of anyone paying less than $2000 for this collection.

So this is one thing that can not be underestimated is the value of the shows and frames that we include. Honestly, customers routinely tell me that the shows are more valuable than the software because when you want to quickly do a show, you could use ready-made imagery from the industry's top artists, rather than create it yourself from scratch. So the shows, frames, and font files are an extremely valuable component of the overall system.

Also, you get a heck of a lot of software with the Pangolin system -- much more than I see offered by anyone else. Winamp plug-ins, laser games, real-time video tracing, even with our least-expensive software.

I can sympathize that, as a hobbyist, funds might be tight. I was a hobbyist myself so I don't have to strain my brain to imagine it. But I do hope that everyone realizes that it is not competition which would allow our prices to come down on our main LD2000 product line. Only lower quality or less innovation or fewer show offerings could do that...

I do hope that the Flashback series would be satisfactory for some hobbyists. It doesn't have all of the features that you want, but it does have a lot, including some which aren't even on your list...

Best regards,

William Benner
Pangolin Laser Systems

[liteglow]

Hi again..

I think this thread is starting to get off-topic :roll:
Maybe we can start a pangolin thread at the Lounge....
As it seems like many ppl in here suddenly love to talk about pangolin
(and i seems to be one of them heh heh)


About pangolin and laser hobbyist, I think the reason that Pangolin did scared me away from theyr site was 2 reasons..
First the price was so high (well, I have latly realized that LASER COST)

But the second reason is that I dont remember seen any DEMO\Trial software there to test ?

When I suddenly did buy Mamba+USB DAC I did pay so much money that maybe pangolin was a choise there ?
I think pangolin can get more customer if they had a "low-cost" page
I think it`s nice that they give away that amiga software for free...
But damn........ if you get a man to start using a amiga in the year of 2006 you made a crime !!! :twisted:


Well... I hope to use pangolin someday
I really LOVE the videos on the pangolin site, have seen them all
I really like the dazzler mirror stuff to mount in the roof.
Would really like to know more how that stuff work...


cheers..