The Bottom Line

[Doc]

If your musicians hit a bum note it isn't going to pop somebody's eye out.

[smokeAndMirrors]

If your musicians hit a bum note it isn't going to pop somebody's eye out.

That's a different argument. The one advanced was that it was worth paying more because it would look better than a projector on auto. Either can be done safely.

[norty303]

I think there's the can't pay, won't pay argument, but also the fact that there are lots of underground nights in the UK drawing regular crowds, but just not big enough to pay the going rate for a laser show.

I for one am more than happy to take the sub £500 gigs, that others won't get out of bed for. Thats almost like working an extra week each month if I did one of those..

[buffo]

to record a performance to advertise with, you need to get performances in the first place.

Wrong. You should already have some video of your projectors in action. If you don't, then set them up in your garage and start filming. Or record them in operation at your next LEM. But you need to have plenty of video material demonstrating what you are capable of before you book your first laser show.

I my self wont set the alarm clock for less than $1500.00 Never undervalue yourself it WILL come back to haunt you

Well spoken! Several ILDA members have made exactly this same comment. (Never undervalue yourself.)

Always remember that you are the professional. You are the laser expert. (Or at least, you're supposed to be the expert.) If you charge $300 for the entire show, how can you be taken seriously? (How can you even pay for insurance at those rates?)

Sure, you're going to price yourself out of the casual nightclub scene at some point. But so what? Are you really looking forward to giving up your Friday nights (and Saturday mornings, because you're so tired from the night before) so you can sit in a smoke-filled club listening to the same droning beat for 6 hours while trying to prevent the drunks from spilling their beers all over your equipment? If that's not your idea of a fun Friday night, then you need to charge people enough to make it worth your while.

I've been told many many times by my clients that they can find it cheaper but no one else could to the shows to the Quality we provide.

When I have worked as a laserist with other companies, we *always* delivered more than we were contracted for. That makes producers happy, which means repeat business.

I try to give more than expected; give them 2 projectors instead of 1 or 3 instead of 2. This generally goes down well and gives the client a feeling of value for money.

Bingo! Under-promise and over-deliver! Words to live by. If you book a show for 3 lasers, you bring 5 with you. That way you've got backup. And if everything works out as expected, you can give them something extra, and everyone is happy.

I recently did a show with just one other person for a crowd of around 1000 people. We had 8 projectors set up. (You read that right, 8 projectors! Talk about a ton of work...) It was one hell of a show though, and it was way, way more than the client expected. (We only promised 4 projectors.)

Seems like a lot of wasted effort, right? No, not really. Before we left the venue for that show, the client was already talking about another show. We reminded them that this one had a lot of freebies added in, and that the next show would be more expensive if they wanted those extras. They said they wanted them. My guess is that the client will be working with that particular laser show company for a long time to come, and all because we over-delivered on the first show.

I for one am more than happy to take the sub £500 gigs, that others won't get out of bed for. Thats almost like working an extra week each month if I did one of those..

The problem is that it's very hard to get out of that rut once you've set the bar so low. Suppose the promoter wants do to a big event in an arena. Say he's bringing in some hot DJ, and he wants you to provide lasers for the event. Sure, you say, but since it's a larger event I need £800 to cover all the extra work. Right away the promoter is going to know you're bullshitting him, because for the last year you've been doing shows for less than £300. See the problem?

Adam

[norty303]

The problem is that it's very hard to get out of that rut once you've set the bar so low. Suppose the promoter wants do to a big event in an arena. Say he's bringing in some hot DJ, and he wants you to provide lasers for the event. Sure, you say, but since it's a larger event I need £800 to cover all the extra work. Right away the promoter is going to know you're bullshitting him, because for the last year you've been doing shows for less than £300. See the problem?

Nope, I don't see the problem.

And there is no bullshit.

Small gigs tend to be relatively hassle free, certainly the license holders are ignorant of their responsibilities for ensuring they meet their license conditions and its not my place to tell them. so, no paperwork in advance (although I carry it with me anyway), no pre-visit to venue, smaller rigging job, etc, etc

The jobs are very different, so you cannot compare. Equally, the people I work with are unlikely to suddenly step up to arena size shows, so its a moot point. If they did, I couldn't cover them anyway.

I have a long term relationship with most of the people I work with, we all know the reality of the gigs being put on, and there is a proportion of 'sharing the profits', which means that for the gigs where the venue is larger, and the revenue is greater, the rates go up accordingly.

I won't tell you how to run your business because it clearly works for you, but by the same token, you cannot tell me that what I do doesn't work for me. Certainly, better than pricing myself out of the market.

[Lasermad]

I suppose this is a constantly ongoing discussion in every consumers head , in every sales office meeting.Do you go for High price or Volume ?

I guess norty is going for volume , im guessing your happy to do 10 gigs a month at £200 ...wheras a lot of people would rather hunt down one £2000 gig and so on ... sometimes you do the £200 gig , hoping it will lead to the £2000 gigs , gaining experience and contacts on the way. If you are a company employing people the £200 gigs just aint viable ..which leaves a market for the smaller gigs the big boys with employees cant touch. Horses for courses.

A tip to get your price up ! if in the early days you discounted or just underpriced ...... if i do gigs over 500 people , i need to inform my inusrance and pay admin fee , lets just say theres a substantial markup on that admin fee and its noted on invoice as 500> insurance premium.

[norty303]

I guess norty is going for volume

Nope, I do 10 gigs a year if I'm lucky. But i only do the gigs I want to do - this is a hobby after all! Lets not spoil it by doing 14 hours days stuck somewhere you'd rather not be. I do have to cover overheads like insurance, PAT, etc but don't have the issues of a larger show Co, like premises, etc

As Quazar says, i will entertain doing gigs that I'm not really into, but rates increase accordingly for the grief factor.

The 'proper' laser companies are not even looking at my marketplace, so it doesn't affect anyone - in fact all of my compettion is people doing what i do, and charging roughly the same.

I think you'll find there are very similar things going on with sound and lighting folks too - this is a discussion I've had on other forums, and the viewpoints are exactly the same, depending on whether you are coming from the larger commercial end, or the smaller DIYer perspective.

There is no right or wrong answer. I also think that an awareness of the differences in locality make an impact on the actual numbers being thrown about - e.g. I can appreciate why the US members might have a higher bottom line than the Eauropean people.

[buffo]

Small gigs tend to be relatively hassle free

Except when they're not, and you haven't made much of anything for the trouble.

certainly the license holders are ignorant of their responsibilities

All the more reason not to deal with them. (Or at the very least, a reason to charge more for dealing with them.)

the people I work with are unlikely to suddenly step up to arena size shows, so its a moot point. If they did, I couldn't cover them anyway.

Poor choice of words on my part. I'm not talking about an arena show in the classic sense. I'm talking about a nightclub owner / promoter who wants to step up to something a bit larger than his usual club. Say renting a ballroom, for example, to throw a special party. Thus, a larger "arena" than usual. But not a football stadium.

This is a natural progression for many promoters, but if you've priced yourself at the very bottom of the scale it's difficult (if not impossible) to go up from there, even though your work load (and responsibility) will increase rapidly with such a progression.

I won't tell you how to run your business because it clearly works for you, but by the same token, you cannot tell me that what I do doesn't work for me. Certainly, better than pricing myself out of the market.

It may be working for you. In the grander scheme of things, it most certainly cheapens the market for everyone. Also, I wasn't speaking only from my own experience, but from the experience of the other laserists I've had the pleasure of meeting (and even working with) over the past several years.

I'm not *telling* you how to run your business. I was suggesting ways to improve it that would also help improve the market for your peers. I believe that your methods are unsustainable in the long term, which is why I disagree with your advice to go after the cheap shows. But if you are happy doing nightclub shows for a few hundred quid, so be it.

Adam

[norty303]

All the more reason not to deal with them.

I don't, I deal with independant promoters, who are generally not the license holders.

Say renting a ballroom, for example, to throw a special party. This is a natural progression, but if you've priced yourself at the very bottom of the scale it's difficult (if not impossible) to go up from there, even though your work load (and responsibility) will increase rapidly with such a progression.

Its not a problem if you and the promoter understand the situation. On the small gigs they get something they can afford based on their potential door take, if their purchasing power goes up, then the price does too. They know they're getting a break, right from the start, and I know when they're taking the piss.

In the grander scheme of things, it most certainly cheapens the market for everyone.

No it doesn't. No-one else wants these gigs (so it would appear) and the promoter simply doesn't have the budget to pay more. What it does mean is that when they do have a bit more to spend (on the ballroom gigs...) they're more likely to stick with their known supplier.

I believe that your methods are unsustainable in the long term, which is why I disagree with your advice to go after the cheap shows

But they're not because they've been working for some years now. Also, to be clear, I'm not 'advising' anyone to go after the cheap shows, I'm simply stating what has been working to fund my sound, lighting a laser hobby for the last X years. Why on earth would I advise anyone to go after my shows...
Laser projectors are now cheap enough to be comparable to a few decent moving luminaires in cost (and therefore rental price) Control systems for lasers are actually cheaper than even a modest lighting desk. A laser show is far less grief to rig than a lighting show. I see great parallels between the lighting and laserist work, and yet can't see where the extra money is to justify the higher price of a laser show at a dance event.

Just to add, I don't 'go after the cheap shows', in fact I don't 'go after' any shows. Promoters and friends approach me and we discuss what they are doing, what they would like, and what the finances are. More often its 'I have this much money, what can you do?' If we can all agree on something then the show happens.

Ultimately, I think the reason we are disagreeing is because we are coming from very different backgrounds, and very different scenes - notwithstanding the water gap

I hear exactly the same arguments from Pro Audio firms about the free party rigs....

I'm not *telling* you how to run your business.

I know, take some of my language with a pinch of salt, I've been typing these posts in a hurry, between leaving work, or sorting dinner for daughter, so i have been 'splurging' rather than making sure they read in a non-offensive manner

[MechEng3]

There is a great reward for allowing high school science classes see the lasers in action. The youth need to be interested in something other than texting and gaming....IMHO. Also there are many other avenues for the laser display other than club scenes.....that is where I show up.