any info on Pangolin "Beyond"

[norty303]

Seeing as a computer running Beyond knows what's plugged into it, I would think they could offer slightly different feature sets for QM and FB3 users to reflect the difference in price and capability of the hardware (if indeed there is any difference anymore...)

Other manufacturers in similar markets do just this - lock out some functionality that is quite useful to more professional users unless it detects a certain level of hardware/license. This would also mean that you wouldn't have to charge the hobbyists through the nose for all of the cool stuff they get to use on their FB3 - which sort of goes against the grain of hobbyist software.

That said, Pangolin may simply take the view that the hobbyists already have their app - Quickshow - and if they want to do anything more complex, then they are obviously in a marketplace where they can afford to put their hand in their pocket for Beyond.

[flecom]

I predict beyond will be the beginning of the end for the QM2k... its had a good long run, its time to let go... my new desktop does not even have PCI slots anymore... all PCIe... and there's really no need for any laser dac to be anything besides USB or ethernet... my cellphone has a more powerful processor than the coldfire on the QM2k

[White-Light]

Just to kill a few rumours from what's already been announced in the launch:

1. There will be Basic, Intro and Pro versions of Beyond

(announced by Bill in this thread: http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/...uncement/page4)

2. It does have its own hardware (This next bit is something that was said to me but I'm sure Bill won't mind me repeating this to kill speculation - this is because the manufacturers of some of the electronic chips used on the current QM boards are discontinuing them (they are 10 years old after all) with the result that the boards have had to have been re-designed around newer parts - this is the reason for the new Beyond Hardware, nothing else.) Whether or not extra power has been added, I just don't know and couldn't say if I did, but I don't.

I'm sure all that existing owners wanted to know is whats already been announced that Beyond will run on existing hardware and all existing shows will run on Beyond.

So far as pricing speculation goes, Norty, I can't see Pangolin giving a cheaper price to FB3 owners than LD owners as many people are using the new FB3-QS professionally. Also, if you look at LD's history, I believe the upgrade was the price between the system you had and the one you wanted. I imagine something like that may continue as it srill offers a good discount on buying from scratch.

Seeing as a computer running Beyond knows what's plugged into it, I would think they could offer slightly different feature sets for QM and FB3 users to reflect the difference in price and capability of the hardware (if indeed there is any difference anymore...)

I think thats already been done - QS!

[allthatwhichis]

and there's really no need for any laser dac to be anything besides USB or ethernet...

But are these interfaces really secure enough, physically, to be trusted with laser control signals? I see both Ethernet and especially USB having problems staying connected well enough to use them with lasers and still have the level of safety offered by a direct ILDA connection to the controlling computer and that is before Windows...

[norty303]

So far as pricing speculation goes, Norty, I can't see Pangolin giving a cheaper price to FB3 owners than LD owners as many people are using the new FB3-QS professionally.

I think you miss my point.

If Beyond has the same feature set on FB3 and QM hardware (or whatever the new one is called), why would anyone want to invest in QM? Unless, of course, the FB3 feature set is restricted in some way...


Care to expand on this one...

I think thats already been done - QS!

AFAIK, so far QS only works with FB3, and I'm not aware of any functionality that becomes unlocked depending on what hardware is connected to it.

[White-Light]

I think you miss my point.

If Beyond has the same feature set on FB3 and QM hardware (or whatever the new one is called), why would anyone want to invest in QM? Unless, of course, the FB3 feature set is restricted in some way...

Or unless they want networking or more advanced abstract generation / 3D handling / reliability of on board show processing / which I believe the current LD / QM boards offer over the FB3 currently.

AFAIK, so far QS only works with FB3, and I'm not aware of any functionality that becomes unlocked depending on what hardware is connected to it.

Neither am I. My point was software with a restricted feature set compared to the professional has already been done in the form of QS. I can't see why Pangolin would to produce a restricted version of Beyond for QS users.

I would expect the difference to be as in my 1st answer above ie the software would be the same but people would buy the LD / QM / New hardware for its more advanced capabilities / reliability.

Its also possible Pangolin could restrict the Fb3 to say the Basic version. I'm not saying they would, but that would be one way of ensuring more feature hungry professionals bought QM and not Fb3 hardware.

[Lased]

I still agree with Flecom and Norty303. The power of Pangolin going forward will be in their software, not the hardware. There is no need for RAM on the DAC when pretty much every PC you can buy these days has enough that some can be used by the show software as buffer. Pretty much any current or even recent generation PC can do all of the real-time calculations necessary for silky smooth playback. The need to keep software secure by requiring that it at least connect to some sort of hardware before it can be used is very important, so I have little doubt that a dongle of some sort will always be necessary for that reason and to provide a convenient ILDA cable connection point. But as for it being necessary for performing calculations, I can't see it. But this is all speculation in this thread and anywhere else Beyond is discussed. Maybe Pangolin has developed something so revolutionary that we're not even thinking on the same terms.. I don't know.

From where I'm sitting it seems that the hardware that currently makes laser projectors tick is pretty much straightforward, fully developed and well-understood, and also pretty difficult to significantly improve upon due to the advanced stage of that technology's development along with the limitations imposed by the response characteristics of DPSS lasers and other physical aspects of the projection hardware used. If Beyond includes some type of optimizations for MEMS technology, some new advanced color/linearity correction or some other new type of scanning with possibilities not seen before, THEN it will be really something ground-breaking, but even then the power is in the software, not the hardware.

[mixedgas]

One point, in the modern Windows programming environment, capturing the PCs counter/timer or the USB timing is not always smooth or uniform, so there is always a need for a double buffered output device, having its own timing generation and memory, even with a 2.4 Ghz PC.

You don't want to argue with me on this one, I've been doing this since 8 bit dacs were hand built on ISA prototype cards, and I do know what I'm talking about when it comes to device IO.

Some of you are very unclear about many things a QM does besides host a series of D/A converter chips. There are some unique things on its output stage as well.

The modern pc is very much asynchronous in its many data paths. You need to do something about that for smooth laser output. Do not even get me started on Windows task priority system.

A RIYA comes close to reducing the memory to just the PC's ram, but it is still has a buffer.

Steve

[dave321]

i'm thinking Pangolin need to get a T shirt run going ready for the 16th july

as we will all be walking adverts, mabe they should be free !!

dave321

[flecom]

P

But are these interfaces really secure enough, physically, to be trusted with laser control signals? I see both Ethernet and especially USB having problems staying connected well enough to use them with lasers and still have the level of safety offered by a direct ILDA connection to the controlling computer and that is before Windows...

I can see an argument against Ethernet, but at this point USB will probably be just as reliable as pci assuming your pc is not a total pos lol.. It is just another bus...

Anyway if you unplug the fb3 it drops all the signals to 0v so the projector should go black anyway assuming it too isn't a pos lol

Additionally like I said pci is on it's way out, a lot of modern computers don't even have them anymore, everything is going to pcie so no matter what the days of the qm are numbered... As to why they are offering beyond for free if you buy a qm right now, maybe they are trying to clear out inventory for the new interface???