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Thread: Saw DigiSynth first-hand last night... |8~O

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsli_jon View Post
    The only thing I would, well.... not even really 'differ' with, is:
    Yep, that's why I said 'with a computer' I agree, it hearkens back to those days, and what I see in this discussion basically boils down to those that see laser projection as an art form in and of itself, and those that just want to use it to add interest to other art. Both positions are valid, but here I get more excited about the former.

  2. #12
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    Still, for all that I'm reading, the story sounds most like a big sales pitch than anything else.

    Sure, DigiSynth may be a very good tool for creating live abstracts. But, under the hood, it still is nothing different from any other multi-channel signal processing solution (like Native Instruments Reaktor, Max/MSP or Pure Data). All of these have some sort of 'live' interface towards the sound engine which can be used to manipulate signals and control your laser output.

    Most people already have a sound card DAC on a shelf somewhere. Get yourself a copy of Pure Data (it's free, so nothing to lose) and start experimenting with a few signals. Even something simple as two sawtooth waves and a decimator can give you a perfect beam grid -- in fact, that's the exact setup I use for my laser harp at this time.

    Sure, the idea is great, but I don't see a lot of added value over existing show packages or software synthesizers on the market.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney3K View Post
    Still, for all that I'm reading, the story sounds most like a big sales pitch than anything else.
    Just to be clear, Dr. Lava isn't selling or distributing this, he gets no kickback or remuneration whatsoever. I appreciate that he was able to see it and experience some excitement for the product, I wish I could have been up there with him, and as for me, sure you may read into it that I'd like to sell more copies, as a partner in the project, that would go well for me

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney3K View Post
    Sure, DigiSynth may be a very good tool for creating live abstracts. But, under the hood, it still is nothing different from any other multi-channel signal processing solution (like Native Instruments Reaktor, Max/MSP or Pure Data). All of these have some sort of 'live' interface towards the sound engine which can be used to manipulate signals and control your laser output.
    Actually, that's a rather bold statement for someone who hasn't gotten to look at it, let alone look under the hood. Not only is this absolutely not like or built upon anything else out there, audio or otherwise, it was written specifically with controls and components intended exclusively for this industry, rather than "some sort of 'live' interface."

    And not only is the DigiSynth engine unique, but when we got tired of hitting the glass ceiling that the Windows environment likes to offer, we wrote our own framework for the interface.

    Hey, I'm all for you guys hacking your sound cards and running some cheap software to mess around with, I wish PL was around when I was just a hobiest, but some people will graduate to wanting something better, and we'll be there.

    Honestly, when I found out about it, I was impressed that anyone would bother to put this much effort into a tool for this (dying) industry. Matt did some fabulous work, so I'm going to stand up for it. I've also put an incredible amount of time into using it, and having done so, I'm very glad he put the effort into it.


    Have a nice ray!


    -chuck

  4. #14
    Lased is offline THIS USER WAS CLUEBYFOURED
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    My own impressions of this insanely expensive "wonder abstract software" is that it's a cross between several technologies that are VERY common in the world of DAWs.

    Any analog virtual synth with a few oscillators is easily capable of the same.. the main requirement is that there are enough oscillators to handle color channels, X,Y channels, and any of a myriad other items that you might want to control with some sort of waveform. Anyone who uses music software is already more than familiar with the concept.. When it comes to controlling lasers, it's all just audio frequency waveforms.. That's it. With almost any modern virtual synth it's possible to create any analog waveform at any audio frequency, layered several times depending on the number of oscillators.

    I can guarantee that a copy of Ableton Live and a few VSTs (or even Operator or Analog) along with an 8 channel sound card is quite capable of creating any abstract effect possible given a little time to program it, and for much less than the price I've seen quoted for this software..

    Of course, this is my feedback without "seeing under the hood".. but occum's razor would suggest that a developer has decided to take these common audio building blocks and apply them to lasers...

    Oh and for about the same price as my whole music studio cost me..

    More power to 'em I say.. but I must wonder who in the world they hope to sell this stuff to. There might be about 15 customers worldwide that would be interested.. and I think far less than that once they realize what the price is.

    Just my very humble $.02 of course..

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    Lol, Oh, it's sooo easy to play the 'armchair QB', isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lased View Post
    ...I can guarantee that a copy of Ableton Live and a few VSTs (or even Operator or Analog) along with an 8 channel sound card is quite capable of creating any abstract effect possible given a little time to program it, and for much less than the price I've seen quoted for this software...
    Well then we're all officially waiting with baited-eyes, the release of this powerhouse of a solution at the cost of a nickel-bag from you and Mr Stone...

    Oh, and we've already 'been there / done-that' somewhat, with the Ableton-route... used it to convert/preserve, and then mod old ADAT show-content... interesting fx possible on the color-mod side, but as-to using it to generate galvo-output, that's a longer road than you think - how it looks on the 'scopes' and how output is translated in the real-world, are two different animals - for one thing, it's incredibly easy to turn your galvos into M-80s if you're not extremely-careful, and then, as-mentioned, there's the whole 'windows-factor' - we had more than one time where Ableton just locked-up - and it wasn't pretty... then again, we were running a 36-track show...

    But I certainly don't see Live being an 'easy' - or better - replacement for this kind of dedicated hardware / software...
    So, will be keen to see you and or Mr Stoney blow the doors off this for $150..... Isn't hyperbole great?

    cheers...
    j
    ....and armed only with his trusty 21 Zorgawatt KTiOPO4...

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsli_jon View Post
    But I certainly don't see Live being an 'easy' - or better - replacement for this kind of dedicated hardware / software...
    So, will be keen to see you and or Mr Stoney blow the doors off this for $150..... Isn't hyperbole great?

    cheers...
    j
    As far as the 'sales pitch' comment goes, I wasn't referring to dr. Lava as much as Laserchuck, who puts just as much 'bold statements' in here as me without backing them up with hard facts. I'd love to see what kind of magic unicorns this thing runs on, if I hear words like 'dedicated IEEE1394-based DSP-platform' I'd be more convinced than words like 'patent pending ground breaking proprietary unicorn magic'. (Yes, we've heard those before)

    I'm not saying the same results can be achieved out of the box with Ableton and a few VST patches. Yes, it probably requires some programming, but nothing that's real rocket science here and any DSP platform would be able to perfectly handle it. Mac or Linux would probably be a more stable platform than Windows, and judging by the screen shots the whole lot is running on the X Window System rather than a Microsoft solution.

    I'll get a thread up with some examples and experiments in PureData for anyone to toy around with. It's a powerful graphical programming language designed for DSP work, so it should be well suited for ILDA laser show use.

  7. #17
    Lased is offline THIS USER WAS CLUEBYFOURED
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsli_jon View Post
    Lol, Oh, it's sooo easy to play the 'armchair QB', isn't it?



    Well then we're all officially waiting with baited-eyes, the release of this powerhouse of a solution at the cost of a nickel-bag from you and Mr Stone...

    Oh, and we've already 'been there / done-that' somewhat, with the Ableton-route... used it to convert/preserve, and then mod old ADAT show-content... interesting fx possible on the color-mod side, but as-to using it to generate galvo-output, that's a longer road than you think - how it looks on the 'scopes' and how output is translated in the real-world, are two different animals - for one thing, it's incredibly easy to turn your galvos into M-80s if you're not extremely-careful, and then, as-mentioned, there's the whole 'windows-factor' - we had more than one time where Ableton just locked-up - and it wasn't pretty... then again, we were running a 36-track show...

    But I certainly don't see Live being an 'easy' - or better - replacement for this kind of dedicated hardware / software...
    So, will be keen to see you and or Mr Stoney blow the doors off this for $150..... Isn't hyperbole great?

    cheers...
    j

    You are quite right on many counts of course..

    I will say that if 36 tracks in Ableton killed your machine, it might be time for an upgrade. I'm using a 5 year old machine (albeit top of the line at that time) and my track count routinely exceeds that number..

    I just have a real hard time swallowing such a large price tag for something that would appear to be fairly mundane, ie a waveform generator. Hell, you could buy a couple world-class interfaces for that price.

    Given that galvo optimization in software code is a well-understood animal (Pangolin has been doing it for years) I still can't justify the price, and honestly I couldn't justify that price for any single-purpose effect software in my opinion. Full control interfaces with full show functionality? Perhaps.. but even the best interfaces in the world currently do not cost $4000/unit that I've seen anyway.

    To each their own, however. If someone buys this item and feels like they got an exceptional product for a reasonable price, that's what really matters at the end of the day. I will say this however: It would take something absolutely earth-shattering, mindblowing, and just incredible beyond words for me to feel that way if I purchased it for $4000. So far nothing I've seen or read is quite on that level. So while I see your point about hyperbole, this seems like you're paying based on someone's over-inflated idea of how spectacular this stuff is rather than paying a price based on real-world overhead and profit figures..
    Last edited by Lased; 05-02-2011 at 14:42.

  8. #18
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    LOL Jon!

    Just putting a few oscillators together? It truly boggles the mind! There are components in DigiSynth that have never been conceived of previously, that do things that have absolutely no purpose in audio software, so they would not exist. There are also components that specifically bring back lost abilities that were only possible on the old programming systems of AVI, now completely dismantled and destroyed.

    But hey, yeah it's easy to say they can get the same thing with free or cheep software elsewhere. I'd really like to see that. I mean, seriously, if someone can pull that off, by all means, produce a decent song with it, the world could use some better content.

    I know I must really be coming off as an elitist snob, and my 17 years in the industry mean nothing anymore because now I'm just some evil guy willing to sell a product, but oh man, I just have to laugh, thank you for your response.

    Jon, like I said on the phone the other day, tough to take this stuff too seriously when I'll be standing at a trade show in a couple weeks at a booth that cost $200k

    Stoney, X-windows, no, that is 2 years of hard coding a totally new framework from scratch. And I'd say the 6 ILDA awards I won last year, the same year we announced DS is bold enough. I've produced many more songs over the past 4 years with DigiSynth, but there are limits and rules about how many I can enter.

    -chuck

  9. #19
    Lased is offline THIS USER WAS CLUEBYFOURED
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    ^hey, good for you man! That's what Capitalism is all about. No one's saying you don't have a good product, and no one's looking for you to take these posts seriously. This is just a forum.. I'm just voicing an opinion myself.

    I will say that personally I don't really find the snob route very attractive from people trying to push a product, and many people who seem to be "criticising" might be looking for some reason to buy the product but are put off by the price. I work for a stage lighting company, so I can tell you that if we did laser shows and found that there was some product that would take our shows and propel them into the next generation then we would want it.. but your price is very high. Will the outcome justify the cost? That's often what posts like mine are trying to glean.. or some idea thereof. I understand having a good product and being proud of that product though, so I hope that you continue to do well!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney3K View Post
    ...who puts just as much 'bold statements' in here as me without backing them up with hard facts. I'd love to see what kind of magic unicorns this thing runs on...
    I think the 'hard facts' are Dr Lava's unbiased / unsolicited review, here - certainly are not comments from an armchair QB, never having actually used DS... Really, what does 'which DSP-chip got used', etc, matter, if the end-result is what Sir Andrew has to say, here?...And I might add, Dr Lava is certainly no 'slouch' when it comes-to understanding what constitutes software and hardware innovations...even proving that, in the real-world, with actual innovative products to his credit...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney3K View Post
    I'll get a thread up with some examples and experiments in PureData...


    Quote Originally Posted by Lased View Post
    I will say that if 36 tracks in Ableton killed your machine, it might be time for an upgrade. I'm using a 5 year old machine (albeit top of the line at that time) and my track count routinely exceeds that number..
    A: Didn't kill the machine, (pretty souped-up 2009 XP box, quad-processor, ~4GB RAM, IIRC..) Ableton just blew a gasket... and B: Cool that you exceed 36 tracks - but what was in them? I'm just saying, we found that Ableton was not the most stable-platform, (in our limited experimentation), for generating / running content to the complexity-level that the 'old-school' dedicated performance-console (Laserium 6B) handled in its sleep, that's all...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lased View Post
    ...but even the best interfaces in the world currently do not cost $4000/unit that I've seen anyway.
    Check out Lasergraph DSP sometime... Which still cannot touch the depth of abstract-generation DS can...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lased View Post
    ...rather than paying a price based on real-world overhead and profit figures..
    I think with DS, that's *exactly* what you are doing - I don't see that they have just piggy-backed onto some 'off the shelf' DSP-box and / or reskinned Ableton + a sound-card, etc, and slapped a $4K sticker on it - Perhaps the 'reviews' / value-statements might be best left to those that have actually used it / peered 'under the hood'?

    I mean, I'd certainly take more stock in your / Stoney's challenges and counterpoints / alternative tech-path suggestions, IF you were speaking from a position of educated-experience, with the system, like Dr Lava, here... And what did he have to say?

    Just some food for thought...

    Quote Originally Posted by Laserchuck View Post
    ..tough to take this stuff too seriously when I'll be standing at a trade show in a couple weeks at a booth that cost $200k
    Indeed.

    Here's hoping You / Matt / DS can somehow make it to SELEM to blow minds... and me, too!


    cheers...
    j
    ....and armed only with his trusty 21 Zorgawatt KTiOPO4...

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