Lasershow by USA company, offshore on boat?

[MLS]

Say theoretically if we were off cruising around in the ocean, could I violate the 3m law without any issues other than the obvious safety concerns? Basically I'm asking if I could crowd scan with say a 1.5w laser system on a public cruise line offshore of the USA.

[flecom]

in international waters anything goes...

although even in US waters, think the FDA EO's would have a difficult time swimming out to you lol

[norty303]

could I violate the 3m law without any issues other than the obvious safety concerns?

Theoretically, but surely the safety concerns are the primary reason for not doing it, no?

Surely if the FDA say its unsafe to do it on dry land, then its unsafe, regardless of the location/jurisdiction?

[Stuka]

PLEASE tell us you're going to check for safe levels of laser energy & use fail-safe precautions before scanning a crowd with a 1.5W laser system!!

Legalities are a secondary concern -
You could seriously & permanently damage some eyes with that system!!

[flecom]

I am guessing you didn't go on the ILDA cruise then? lol

[allthatwhichis]

I am guessing you didn't go on the ILDA cruise then? lol

I believe they were using 3W projectors on that trip that included audience scanning. Best seats were in the back I hear.

[buffo]

I've been on two ILDA cruises. The one in 2008, and the one in 2010. I attended the lase-off and the lido-deck laser show on both cruises.

In 2008, Greg Makhov tried to get them to adhere to the rules for the indoor lase-off. A snafu erupted when some of the European members complained that we were on a ship registered to the Bahamas, in International waters, so we shouldn't be following American rules. Several ILDA members pointed out that crowd-scanning above the MPE is specifically prohibited in the ILDA ethics and code of conduct pledge, no matter which country you're in. This fact was ignored.

In the end, Greg was asked to pack up his irradiance meter, and the lasers were set to full power for the lase-off. I should point out that this event was open to everyone on the ship, not just ILDA members. And yes, it was a hot show. I found it very uncomfortable, and had to move to the side several times to get out of the scan field. The outdoor show on the lido deck was more of the same... 3 watt RGB projectors aimed into the crowd at distances of less than 100 ft. I left early...

In 2010, I was late getting to the lase-off, so I didn't see what went on during the setup. It's possible that some power measurements were taken and adjustments were made, but I can't say for sure, because I didn't see it. But the shows did seem to be a bit dimmer. Note that they still seemed much brighter than the MPE. (They looked about as bright as the shows in the balcony at SELEM, which are definitely above the MPE.) But they weren't as painful as I remember them in 2008.

To answer the original question: Is it legal? The answer is, probably yes. In international waters on a foreign-flag carrier, I think the CDRH would be out of it's jurisdiction. So yes, you could probably ignore their rules.

From a moral standpoint, the question is, even though it might be legal, should you do it? And that is a lot more difficult to answer. It's one thing to allow experienced laserists to expose themselves to increased exposure levels, because they understand the risk and can make an informed decision. But to expose the average consumer (who has no knowledge of the risks involved) to crowd-scanning laser projectors at levels above the MPE is something completely different.

Personally, I think it's a bad idea.

Adam

[MLS]

See this is why I have some a quandary on where and what do follow all the time. It seems that rules and regulations aren't even followed by a lot of people "at the top". Just like anything other hobby, most people don't read the rules they just follow the biggest and the baddest because if they can do I can do it, right? I didn't even know there was issues like this before on the ILDA cruise, I'm learning everyday.

[flecom]

nothing to see here... move along... move along...

[White-Light]

See this is why I have some a quandary on where and what do follow all the time. It seems that rules and regulations aren't even followed by a lot of people "at the top".

But as Buffo pointed out they were out of legal jurisdiction so strictly speaking there were no laws to follow as I'm not sure there are any laws relating to the use of lasers in International shipping waters where the laser beams don't pose a hazard to other shipping.

Also, lets not lose sight of the fact that even if the laws should have been morally adhered to, not all countries laws are the same so whilst audience scanning is all but banned in the US excepting that persons like Greg will have a variance for it I presume, it is permitted in some European destinations at MPE and in others above MPE (or at least was before the recent H&S directive).

So you can't just say that even those at the top break laws the because they don't usually. Most adhere to the laws in their respective countries. The difference here was they were in a lawless part of the world (international waters) and as Buffo said, some chose in full knowledge of the risks to expose themselves to above MPE standards. Their eyes, their risk their choice. Not much different to you choosing to do the same at home. The only inconsiderate bit was the crew. However, that's still very different from anyone going out professionally and doing a show on Joe Public above MPE.