U.S. Customs & Border Protection ....Seized my laser.... HELP!!

[mixedgas]

Bradford 69.

OK, so your question is perhaps expressed as "WTF is a Variance?"

This is a poor definition, but here goes:

There is a legal difference between the many variations of "Demostration Laser Products", used in public or private events. Laser shows are a special set of the rules that are not well defined by Congress.

Many things are what used to be/may still be called a "Demonstration Laser Product". A laser gun sight, or a HENE made for a high school physics lab, or a low power laser used for leveling pipes on a construction site are examples. The demonstration laser greater then 4.95 mW in some cases, or .9 mW in others, needs manufacturing documents and a variance for its use.

A variance is legal permission on a case by case basis to deviate from the safety rules that would otherwise restrict laser shows to harmless Class II or Class IIIA low power lasers. Harmless in this case means highly unlikely to cause eye damage.

Many devices, not laser shows, just need the manufacturing documents and a quality control program. Laser show devices need a QC program, Manufacturing Approval, and a Variance for use.

The IIIA product, like a gun sight, is created under a different subset of the rules after the manufacturer documents that it meets certain requirements that make it a low power, and essentially harmless laser device. They are required to show quality control measures on their devices.

Pointers less then 5mW have a blanket permission to manufacture now under one of the "Laser Letters" issued by FDA, provided they are less then 4.95 mW when sampled, and have certain stickers on them. This was done to reduce paperwork load on both sides. It has then been abused as powers have gotten higher.

Other laser products such as laser welders are supposed to built in such a way that you cannot be exposed power in excess of class I, ie 300 microwatts, by encasing the beam path or other techniques such as interlock switches.

Medical lasers are supposed to be used only by trained medical staff.

Lab Lasers are expected to be used in a compliant manner described by ANSI Z136, ie access is restricted to lab personnel, and other measures should be taken.

This is a short summary typed at 5 Am, it has multiple errors.

I hope that helps.

Steve

[Bradfo69]

Thanks Steve, although I don't know that it's so much a question of "What is a varience?" I've been around here enough to understand (and have read, and have started trying to complete on occasion) a show varience and, a manufacturers varience. I also know the thread arose from questions regarding illegal imports. Lord knows the country is flush with thousands upon thousands of arriving packages marked, "LED stage lighting", "optical device with no commercial value", or "left handed flaberwongler".

I gather that someone in the business, like a Marc, for example, has to have paperwork allowing him to legally receive his DHOM, Viasho, Kvant, LaserWave and other foreign products for sale here. Or, ship back and forth for warranty replacements or repair. Maybe that's a manufacturers varience, or a show varience, plus importation paperwork. But, it also seems as though he can't legally sell any of them to any of us without us having a show varience. Again, the case of Blowfly comes to mind where (I think) he at one point may have bought parts from Marc to build a projector, prior to getting it varienced (as a manufacturer since he built the final product). At the time of purchase, it sounds like it would have been illegal for Marc to sell it and illegal for him to purchase and own it without first possessing some type of a varience. I'VE bought new DHOM modules from sources with the intent of building a projector and, you take it out of the box, plug the PS in the wall, connect the head, turn the key and, it lases. Seems it's illegal to have been sold to me, and illegal for me to possess at this point.

So my question then moved to domestic made products, readily available for those with internet access and a credit card, that emit more than 4.95mW. And it sounds like if it's not for laser display use, that as long as Aixiz has manufacturer's document and QC program, they can sell a 35mW green gun site to anyone to shoot off into the woods. Or a 30mW pointer to wave around the cat. But those of us that want to watch a little art with our Pink Floyd, have to subscribe to a different set of laws.

Shit..... late for work. "To Be Continued" Later ya'll.

[buffo]

Adam, what is a 2976?

It's the US customs declaration long form, used for import *and* export of goods. The short form is 2976A. But yeah, you also need to file the FDA-2877 specifically for lasers. My bad; I got them mixed up. (In fairness, I've been filling out a shitload of 2976's lately, because you need to attach one to any package sent to an FPO, and my oldest son is in the Navy, so I had 2976 on the brain...)

Owning a non-compliant laser is a big problem if you yourself did not built it from OEM components.

Here's the rub: how do you (or better yet, how does the CDRH) define "build it from OEM components"? If that means you have to design the cavity from scratch, machine the mounts, design, grind, polish and coat all your own optics, and wire everything yourself, then I submit that this definition is overly burdensome on the consumer and could be successfully challenged in court.

I submit that a laser head (or module) is unquestionably an OEM component, since it is incapable of producing coherent light by itself. Likewise, a laser driver is also an OEM component, as is a power supply. Put them all together, and you now have a finished laser product, which is only required to comply with the rules before it is introduced into commerce. You can use it in your basement (or classroom, for that matter) all you want, even if it is a class IV device, and the CDRH has no jurisdiction.

OEM has always been considered to be component-level parts that will not function as intended by themselves, by literally everyone I've ever asked about it (including Casey Stack at Laser Compliance Inc and Jerry Dennis at the CDRH). Thus, if you purchase the head, driver, and power supply separately and assemble them into a working laser, you have fulfilled the requirements of "building it yourself". If the CDRH interprets this differently, I would demand they provide chapter and verse in the federal code that supports their position. (Which they would have a damned hard time doing, in my opinion.)

if someone were to buy a non-compliant laser from overseas, or even domestically, having it for home use does not exempt the product from Federal oversight under the commerce clause.

I partially agree. They certainly have oversight on the purchase transaction, but beyond that point their jurisdiction ends. They have *zero* jurisdiction over the mere ownership of a laser. (If they did, no one could ever experiment with lasers in their home without first filing a product report.)

My point is that there is no way for the CDRH to prosecute you once the finished laser is in your possession. They would have to PROVE that you imported it illegally, rather than accept your claim that you assembled it yourself from the OEM components consisting of the head, driver, and power supply. Since the CDRH has no documented proof that the laser entered the country as a finished product, they are pretty much screwed.

it can be illegal to own a laser, especially if you don't have a variance, regardless of how it is being used if it came through some process of commerce.

Show me where the CDRH has the statutory authority to inspect the use of any laser I chose to have in my home... (Provided that I'm not running a laser light show company out of my home, of course.)

If they can't stop it at the border, or otherwise prove that it entered the country illegally, they have no further jurisdiction until such time as I decide to introduce the laser into commerce. Merely owning a non-compliant laser is not a crime.

I could just as easily purchase an industrial or lab laser (even one that is fully certified) without a light show variance, so long as my intended use was not for a demonstration laser product (or for surveying, leveling, or alignment purposes). At some point in the future, I could then remove all safety interlocks from said laser and install it into my own laser light show projector. This final product would not be compliant in any way anymore, yet the CDRH still would have no legal authority over it. (At least not until I decide to sell it or start doing shows with it.)

Your statement could be read to say that once you got it in hand, you were good as long as you didn't resell it.

Yep. This was exactly the answer I got from Jerry Dennis when I called the CDRH several years ago. He explained the commerce clause in detail, and admitted that once the laser is in your possession, the CDRH would have to PROVE that you purchased / imported it illegally as a finished (and non-compliant) laser product, and they have no way to do that. (Edit: I should admit that we were discussing E-bay sales, rather than direct purchases form the manufacturer, but the same regulations apply to both transactions.)

Likewise, if you use your home-made laser in a classroom, the CDRH still has no jurisdiction, so long as you aren't being paid for the demo. I'm sure it chaps their asses to know this, but the commerce clause sets some pretty strict limits on what they can and can not do.

Adam

[Jimboy3625]

Being new to this whole world of lasers I still find it odd that anyone 18 years of age (In the U.S.) can walk into Wal-Mart and purchase a 12 gauge shotgun and shells. Said person can travel the countryside with "guns 'n' ammo", shoot at pretty much anything not living on state/federal land they deem a "target", (granted with an extremely simple license shoot living things), compete in shooting competitions, paid or otherwise and at the end of the day sell that same guns 'n' ammo to pretty much anyone with no scrutiny all because of the 2nd Amendment, (God bless the USA!), but "oh god the world will end" if you buy a laser and/or projector and make money off of owning that equipment for a laser show!

I think that someone in the FDA/CDRH had a little brother with a laser projector who was making money and didn't want any competition so big brother helped him out with regulation (that's how Washington works doesn't it?)!!!

What this tells me is that we need to get away from building laser projectors and get into building lasers guns so that we have 2nd amendment rights! (God forbid you aim your laser guns into a set of galvos tho, you need a variance for that )

Can I get an AMEN?

-Jim

[flecom]

the CDRH still has no jurisdiction, so long as you aren't being paid for the demo.

so if I don't charge I can do laser shows with non-varianced equipment?

[DZ]

so if I don't charge I can do laser shows with non-varianced equipment?

Oh sweet, so just ask for tips then!

[flecom]

Oh sweet, so just ask for tips then!

screw that, will do free laser show if you buy one of my business cards lol


(and ask for tips too lol)

[Bradfo69]

Sure...! Promote your business card sales with laser advertising!

Don't think it'll fly though. If someone books their wedding here and, that night I chose to set up and throw in a show or two for free (cause she's cute and I enjoyed working with her), I suspect they'd still link it to "commerce" even though I don't get any money from the wedding or, own the catering business- just my hourly paycheck.

[Laser Wizardry]

" 15 characters"

[buffo]

so if I don't charge I can do laser shows with non-varianced equipment?

No, not quite. Karl hit it on the head:

if you did a laser show for free for a club or a rave, but that club or rave is engaging in commerce, ie, advertising and selling tickets or drinks, than your laser show is part of the event that is conducting commerce and is therefore regulated.

This is called "indirect commerce", and that's how they can claim jurisdiction even if you, the laserist, are not being paid for the show. Their reasoning goes something like this: the club will be getting extra business because of your laser show. Thus there is commerce going on that would otherwise not be going on if you hadn't shown up with the laser projector.

It's weak, I agree, but that's how they justify it.

I could audience scan at my own wedding reception legally, but would never be able to do that for a client.

Good example, albeit one that most people would avoid just because of the general risks of audience scanning - regardless of the legality of it.

The slopes of regulatory compliance are slippery indeed, although the easiest way around the concerns voiced in this thread are quite obvious-- get a variance!!!!

I agree!

It is not hard.

Well, I'd say it's not hard to get a laser light show variance. I think filing a laser product report (which is more in-line with the original post in this thread) is a good bit more difficult. Still doable, mind you, but not nearly as easy as the 2-page laser light show variance application.

Adam