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Thread: Correct me if I'm wrong...

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Maine USA
    Posts
    161

    Default Correct me if I'm wrong...

    Ok so i'm trying to put together an informitive video about lasers and the legal stuff for youtube.

    I just want to make sure i got what i need.


    * For beginner use *
    (please read if you are a beginner)

    http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Medical.../UCM119257.pdf

    *Varriance Application*

    http://www.fda.gov/downloads/aboutfd.../ucm080788.pdf

    *For usage while having your projector*

    REPORTING GUIDE

    http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AboutFD.../UCM081634.pdf

    ANUAL REPORT

    http://www.fda.gov/downloads/aboutfd.../ucm081603.pdf

    * Open air show *

    APPLICATION

    http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m.../faa7140-1.pdf

    GUIDE FOR APPLICATION

    http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/a79d573e9ff2aaaa86256f9d00583fe0/$FILE/AC70-1.pdf


    *FORUM FOR LASER PEOPLE*

    http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/forum.php


    Anything else you guys think i should add, or have i missed somthing?

    Thanks!
    1st place ILDA 2013 awards "Multiscanner show"
    1st place ILDA 2014 awards "Multiscanner show"
    https://www.youtube.com/user/BronyBeamshows
    My start to the laser world
    9/15/2010

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Tampa, Fla
    Posts
    75

    Default

    Many states also require lasers to be registered and show reports be filed. My state (Fla) is one of them

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn NYC
    Posts
    838

    Default

    NY STATE requires a license from the state (with test ) and a $600 per laser registration fee (every 3 years)

    http://www.labor.state.ny.us/workerp...alth/sh50.shtm

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Knoxville, TN, USA
    Posts
    3,150

    Default

    Pretty cool idea!!

    Elsewhere on PL there is (or was?) a thread containing a LOT of the type of information you're looking for, so a search may turn up a few more items you might want to list.

    Definitely a good idea to post your "master" list here before going YouTube - some of the other pros might be willing to jump in with additional pointers.

    One thing I might add -
    Be sure to run a spell check before posting the final list!!
    RR

    Metrologic HeNe 3.3mw Modulated laser, 2 Radio Shack motors, and a broken mirror.
    1979.
    Sweet.....

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Maine USA
    Posts
    161

    Default

    Is there a list of states that have this type of thing anywhere?
    1st place ILDA 2013 awards "Multiscanner show"
    1st place ILDA 2014 awards "Multiscanner show"
    https://www.youtube.com/user/BronyBeamshows
    My start to the laser world
    9/15/2010

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    24

    Default

    Does anyone have any first hand experience with filing

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    24

    Default

    Sorry, my message got cut off:

    Does anyone have any first hand experience with filing FAA form 7140?

    I have a multi-watt RGB projector I am building and am just a breathe inside 10 nautical miles from the local airport (depending on which part of the runway you measure from) and I have a few questions.

    One question is what to make of the values I am getting for slant range calculations. If I am doing these right, the results seem very high (in the range of 70-80 miles but expressed in feet.)
    Naturally I am wondering if the FAA is going to want the laser restricted to 70 miles away from the airport, but I also understand they realize that if the various zones/ exposure levels were strictly adhered to then there would not be many places a laser could be used in the United States.

    My interest is in being responsible and a good citizen. I understand pilots and ATC have enough to worry about and I don't want to be a bother. In reading the forms, it seems what the FAA is really looking for in to ensure pilots and others are not harmed by laser radiation, and that by filing with the FAA they have a sense that the laserist is a responsible person and not some idiot waving a beam around without any knowledge of the hazards he might be creating. If they know my setup and plans, and understand what dangers may exist, then they can comfortably warn airmen of the laser with the comfort of knowing what the laser is and what dangers it does and does not present.

    Any practical words of advice, as well as how the Slant Range data weighs into the FAA's evaluation?

    Since this is a hobby and not commercial, I should not need an FDA variance and I don't even think I am obligated to report to the FAA; however, I still think safety controls and letting the FAA know what is going on is a good and responsible thing to do. To this end I intend to build to spec and obtain a projector variance, and to work with the FAA to minimize issues. Besides, commercial air travel seems more important than my hobby, despite how fond very I am of lasers!

    Any thought from first hand experience?

    Thanks everyone.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Phoenix AZ
    Posts
    347

    Default

    " 15 characters"
    Last edited by Laser Wizardry; 11-13-2015 at 13:23.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    24

    Default

    Wow, I am super happy with that feedback.
    Yes, I certainly have some more questions that I'll post very soon (I'm on my iPhone now.)

    FYI, I filled out one form but calculated each beam separately. It sounds like that is what they wanted, but I was also conservative since I thought a record of conservative, safe calculations might instill more confidence as opposed to an applicant that appears to cut corners and sugar-coat the facts.

    I guess a few things are on my mind off hand:

    1) am I correct (as far as you know) that since I am just doing this as a hobby and not commercial, I am really not legally obligated to file with the FAA or get a variance? That's not to suggest notifying the FAA is not a good and responsible thing to do anyway, but I am not technically in violation of any federal statutes (unless I did something really dumb like intensionally pointed the laser at a plane which I never would!!!)

    2) if I wanted to provide a plane spotter, does anyone know of any nice remote control / wireless technologies that would work for maybe a 600 ft radius? I was thinking maybe someone had an iPhone app that might work or something.

    3) since this is my hobby, ideally I'd like to be able to use the laser outside whenever I like, but I recognize that at higher powers this just may not be practical. On the same token, it's kind of hard to provide 30-days notice for something I tend to do on an ad hoc basis (such as when it is foggy out.) I am wondering if I can work an agreement with the FAA that meets their concerns and yet still provides me some flexibility. I am thinking something like (calculating and understanding the hazard my laser presents, agreeing on where the laser will and will not be directed, agree upon providing a notice to airmen x days or x hours before operation, maintaining a standard setup. Maybe plane spotters too? My thinking is that if the laser's hazard is understood, we should be able to agree on some limitations to protect pilots and planes. By notifying the FAA ahead of time, they'll know it is my laser and not some nut case so that should reduce their need to be concerned (no need to worry I might start targeting planes or something.) Is it ridiculous to think that such an agreement might be possible, or do they pretty much always need 30 days notice? My intent is to be supportive and flexible, I am just hoping they will be too and we can find an arrangement that works for everyone.

    4) are un-terminated aerial effects allowed very often? Under what conditions do you think they might be?


    Thank you so much for sharing your experience and expertise.

    If you are willing, I would not mind sharing my form with you for your thoughts before I submit it to the FAA.

    Oh, and the LSO certification is on my radar! (No pun intended!).

    Thank you most sincerely.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    SoCal / San Salvador / NY
    Posts
    4,018

    Thumbs up

    Hey MG -

    First, Big Kudos to ya for taking the high road' on this, even though yer just a "hobbyist".. great example for others, at being aware of / in-tune to the 'bigger picture', and not walking with 'tunnel vision' (ie: I'm not a "pro" so I can do whatever the frack I want w/ no consequences'..) ..way too-many peeps out there with such an attitute.. Thanks for helping the cause of 'Good Education / Best Practices'..

    ..Second, here's an oft overlooked resource, right here in PL, for links and such.. http://www.photonlexicon.com/wiki/in...dies_in_the_US ..Obviously, you've leapfrogged the 'initial info', but just an 'fyi' for future updates to those Guv links (..that sometimes get moved / changed w/o notice ..So we-all can keep track / keep peeps informed..

    ..I see yer in the good hands of Sir Karl, which is great, but allow me to offer a couple points of perspective on yer last post...

    Quote Originally Posted by MountainGoat View Post
    ..FYI, I filled out one form but calculated each beam separately. It sounds like that is what they wanted, but I was also conservative since I thought a record of conservative, safe calculations might instill more confidence as opposed to an applicant that appears to cut corners and sugar-coat the facts.
    Again, Great attitude and forward-thinking, but in my experience, they are not really concerned with 'exact wavelengths', so-much as, as Karl said, 'visual-distraction potential' at farther distances, and eye-injury, at closer-ranges / higher-powers.. Keep in mind that, 'back in the day', when this Form / Regs were formed, most-to-all shows were still using Big Gun Ions, where you could have 9-10 or more 'wavelengths' - in the same single beam...

    ..So, what.. are we supposed to 'fill out 11 forms', or, 'do the Calcs 11x'?? Obviously, that's both impractical (..for them, as-well..) and mostly-irrelevant, since not all of those lines would contain high-enough powers to pose an actual concern / hazard.. (ie: even a large-frame Ion running balls-out would typically only have a few 10s of mW of 454 (deep violet) or 671 (deep red) or 568 Yellow, etc, etc..)

    ..But, from a 'visual distraction standpoint', the VCF most 'relevant' would be between 488nm (cyan) and 532 Green.. Now, sure - you could simply use the 'VCF' for 532, for a 'worst case scenario numbers', from that visual-distraction standpoint, but, unless you're actually using all-Green in a show (ie: a 'KTP', etc) it's not necessarily 'fair', on your-side, to be 'over-expressing the hazard'.. I mean, ie: what if I've *got* 5 Watts of Green in my Pj.. but my show is mostly using all-Red, or all 445-Blu? And, once in awhile, I use a 'white' graphic / beams, etc.. So, obviously, going 'all 532' isn't "fair", either..

    ..So, for a 'typical Full Color show' (with just RGB, or, even a multiline Ion..) we've always used 488nm as the 'VCF' calc, which is a good balance between the 'worst case scenario' of either using no VCF, or, 'just 532', etc, and they are fine with such 'median' calc'ing, as-well, from the hazard-standpoint.. To be honest, they are usually more concerned with *divergence*, as, even with an arseload of 532, or 488 or whatever - even if Very high-powers (ie: a 30 Watt Argon..) if yer laser is shooting beams of 12mRad, they're not as-concerned, as even a 1W RGB, that features <1mRad beams..

    ..So, like Karl says, not to be overly-concerned with the 'VCF'.. Pick a line ie: the 'middle-of-the-road' at 488, or just leave it out, and focus more on the overall-power / div. concerns.. And even more significant-concerns.. Like 'Azimuth' (..where yer pointing the bugger.. and Elevation (of projections..) etc..

    Quote Originally Posted by MountainGoat View Post
    1) am I correct (as far as you know) that since I am just doing this as a hobby and not commercial, I am really not legally obligated to file with the FAA or get a variance?
    Well, ok.. I can see the logically-extrapolated perspective of 'I'm not commercial, so, therefore, I don't need a Variance, so therefore, I don't "legally" need to notify the FAA.. *BUT*.. Do you see this 'line of reasoning' working for the guys that - genuinely innocently - shot a pointer up into the sky, "just to test / for fun / hobby"...when the guys with the AR15's came around? ...I think you see my 'point', ya?

    ..I'd say - IF something ever 'happened' - ie: you were - totally innocently - doing a non-commercial show in yer backyard, etc, and just happened to scan some plane way-out of yer sightline, etc, and they 'called it in' / FBI swooped-in / grabbed ya / you got prosecuted, etc - A plea of '..well, yer Honor, *technically* I am not "legally obligated" to notify the FAA, since this was "not commercial", so..' I think would get about as far past yer lips as the end of yer shoetips, before it was shot down in flames, agreed? When it comes to "their airspace", there is little room for 'our interpretation' of the Regs.. Also, here's a quote from their site - Words bolded to help consider thier perspective on what 'constitutes' the need for advisement:

    "29-1-1. PURPOSE

    This chapter prescribes policy, responsibilities, and guidelines for processing a Notice of Proposed Outdoor Laser Operation(s) and determining the potential effect of outdoor laser activities on users of the NAS.
    " ..note they don't 'distinguish' betwen 'pro or am' or 'commercial / non' .. And, the way they 'view' ANY laser being shot into their airspace:

    "29-1-5. DEFINITIONS...

    c. Demonstration Laser. Any laser product designed or intended for purposes of visual display of laser beams, for artistic composition, entertainment, and/or advertising display (Reference 21 CFR 1040.10(b) 13). Any demonstration laser in excess of 5 mW requires a variance from the CDRH.
    " ..they're really not-concerned with 'distinguishing' between 'commercial / non-commercial'.. They're concerned with the safety of their airspace - dat'z really the bottom-line..

    ..So, again - Kudos to you for even *asking* for clarity / being astute enough to put yourself thru the paces of a 7140.. Big huge to You.. And, THANKS for helping demonstrate the 'why' of Good Education / Best Practices.. 'pro OR am'..

    PS - Refefence, here: http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publi...R/air2901.html and http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publi...R/air2902.html and http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publi...R/air2903.html and http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publi...R/air2904.html

    Quote Originally Posted by MountainGoat View Post
    3) since this is my hobby, ideally I'd like to be able to use the laser outside whenever I like, ...I am wondering if I can work an agreement with the FAA that meets their concerns and yet still provides me some flexibility. ...By notifying the FAA ahead of time, they'll know it is my laser and not some nut case...My intent is to be supportive and flexible, I am just hoping they will be too and we can find an arrangement that works for everyone.
    I think if you write your Local Airspace Specialist (..lettuce know where ya'are, and we can point you to the right / current person..) And explain to them - just as you have - sincerely / openly, and with such 'collaborative language' - your 'intent', your 'qualifications' (that you are Aware of the Regs / issues with airspace-safety, AND that you are committed-to / have / use the Tools to ensure it (ie: E-Stop / Spotter w/ Binocs, at a min.. / Notification of yer 'Ops', etc..) I can't see why they'd object, to someone so reasonable / astute, even w/o "a Variance"..

    ..The only thing I could see them, perhaps, objecting to, might be yer 'Azimuth' and/or Elevation in which case, they'd simply say ie: '..We're 'ok with it', IF you point it in this-direction, vs that', etc..

    Quote Originally Posted by MountainGoat View Post
    4) are un-terminated aerial effects allowed very often? Under what conditions do you think they might be?
    With every 7140 Report, for 'open-air' fx, submitted, they *will* perform a 'full aero-study' / calcs, on thier-end. They have their own software / methods for analysis / airspace / traffic-lane considerations, etc, and the 'allowability' will be 100% their call.. we can't really say 'when / if / how' they'd OK.. too-many 'variables', that only you can supply, as / when you submit..

    ..Oh, and PS - You / we don't issue 'NOTAMs', only they do, If / when they see the need.. ie: We've had open-air shows, approved, where they didn't feel the need to 'issue a NOTAM', due to the particular traffic-vector / hours of the show, etc (ie: middle of New Mexi, where, since we were so-far 'out there', we were prolly more likely to scan a UFO vs a plane..

    ..Sorry for the 'long-form answer'... ..But, Thanks, again, and keep up the good werk / example..
    j
    Last edited by dsli_jon; 10-25-2014 at 08:31. Reason: typDoh!
    ....and armed only with his trusty 21 Zorgawatt KTiOPO4...

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