Its very greeeeeeeeen

[gottaluvlasers]

rszemeti-

I think most "pros" (pro not referring to companies. pro refering to knowledge and experience) here would probably *agree* with many of the statements on safety that you make (SOME of them. other statements you make just make you sound like a bozo). What my problem is with you and what most others problem is with your statements is that you are delivering them in a community where you have NO idea who your audience potentially may be!!!

To you, to Jon, to me, to MANY others here- a 200mW laser is less dangerous than a steak knife. HOWEVER- to the 15 year old kid who just received $200 from grandma for Christmas and decides to go buy a Wicked Lasers pointer is going to possibly read your statements and *ASSUME* that what he/she has is safe. And yes, under most NORMAL, RESPONSIBLE operation, the pointer *IS* completely safe. HOWEVER- when he brings it to school and shines it on little Mary in study hall and thinks it funny to shine it in her eyes (which i have seen FIRST HAND many times with >5mW pointers) the bottom line is the pointer *CAN* cause serious damage. It is scientifically proven. Are the occasions very few? YES! are the possibilities very little? YES. but- they are possible.

Why would you promote the stereotype that they arent dangerous? Why not err on the side of caution? To you a 60W LS is safe. To Jon a 60W Laserscope is safe. Thats great. you know what to do and what not to do. But again, the bottom line is that the units ARE capable of SERIOUS injuries if mistakes are made. In your mind, they are completely harmless. Thats fine...thats your opinion. you obviously are a smart man and know what you're doing. But again, this forum has THOUSANDS of readers form all over the world with ALL different skill levels. Again, why not err on the side of safety? Theres no danger in leading with safety in mind. There IS danger in leading with "eh, these things aint so bad."

Trust me. I think that MANY "dangers" and regulations with Lasers are HIGHLY exagerated also. But this is becasue i have dealt with hundreds of them over the years. I know them, i respect them. New people just starting out, ESPECIALLY in todays world with high powered handheld lasers, don't necessarily know these dangers yet. Many of your comments (and others on this forum over the years) can be misconstrued and provide a carefree atitude and promote misuse which *CAN* cause an injury. No matter HOW SMALL the odds are, it IS a possibility.

I think most people here (myself included) would just prefer our more "exeperienced" members to promote safety and education rather than the "rogue" atitude. It seems like you have and had MANY toys and experiences with Lasers. I am sure you have quite a lot of knowledge to share. We just prefer you share it in a responsible manner.

-Marc

[rszemeti]

I consider my manner is responsible.

What I consider to be a greater danger is people pretending non-dangerous things are dangerous, because it leads people who know no better to see the warning and then try it for themselves .. at some point, after their 100mW laser-pointer fails to cause armageddon they come round to thinking "well, thats odd .. it said it was dangerous, it doesnt seem to be .. maybe ALL those warning labels on things can be ignored ..."

I aim to be accurate, not over cautious. Accurate factual information is better than scare-mongering and exageration.

You might consider 110V mains "dangerous", I don't. You can happily touch it with the back of your finger and live to tell the tale. I would call the 20KV DC in a big laser PSU dangerous, you won't laugh that off. How do you get that across to people if you've built a repoutation on calling safe things dangerous already? do you say "its dangerous, and I really mean it this time"?

End of the day, we appear to live in a world controlled by interfering busy-bodies who ( having failed to get a job as a traffic warden), seek other areas of life for them to stick their snouts. There is more than enough regulation in this world already, amateur science is (thankfully) one of the areas still left alone where motivated individuals can explore the world as they see fit. Lasers are a classic example of amateur science (by "lasers" I mean experimenting with real lasers, not disco lighting effects) ... providing you are not harming anyone else, I fail to see why it is anyone elses concern what you get up to in your garage.

You think electricity would have been invented if Franklin had been told not to go out in the storm as lightnign was dangerous? What about Tesla? would he have done half the things he did if someone was standing about going "ooh, thats dangerous, you want to get some big barriers up around that, and turn the voltage down" ...

Is this dangerous?



Answer: no, not even a little bit. Why? because if you understand the physics its perfectly safe, its only housewives and failed traffic-wardens who think its dangerous, because it looks "scary". Would I encourage anyone to have a go at that? damn right I would.

There was a show on the TV many years ago called "Tomorows World" where they told you, in fairly technical terms, about new stuff from the world of science ... ove the years it got dumbed down for the "average viewer", and the show failed, because the "average viewer" was to dumb to understand much more than the rudimentary concepts.

Screw the "average viewer". The internet is a large and varied place, some places are more technical than others.

With the one caveat of not putting others at risk, I am about sick to here ^^ of the do gooders that are continually trying to save us from ourselves. If you want to go on a crusade, off you go and try to stop all the idiots with laser pointers doing what they do, pesky annoyance that they are.

I'd love to stop, but I really feel the need to go and do that 60W of yag on chicken-leg experiment, as I am in the mood for it now. I'll let you know how it goes.

[Doc]

Is this dangerous?

It depends if his missus is as intolerant of the noise and TVI as mine is; a 5lb skillet around the back of the head can be devastating.

[White-Light]

Re-skim reading it, I'm struggling to see the alleged defamation in this thread unless you count someone accusing him of being a troll, which when taken in the circumstances of the provocative post about not caring if people injured themselves as a reaction to other people pointing out the potential dangers of posting "Nah, 200mw is not dangerous... provided you don't STARE into the beam", would seem to have been a fair conclusion to come to at that point, even if the allegations of trolling were subsequently proven wrong.

Of course danger is relative but as was said above on an open public forum visited by people with no knowledge, its foreseeable that some people with no knowledge could possibly misinterpret those comments and get the wrong idea about what is safe. Namely that unless they deliberately stare down the beam, they have nothing to worry about including quick glances or scans. Sure hundreds of milli won't remove limbs but it can damage eyes permanently in some circumstances as Tommorrowland proved.

[carlos3621]

"guns dont kill people, people kill people"

[dsli_jon]

I consider my manner is responsible.

Clap clap for-you... What you apparently still need to consider is the 'context' of the things you post in this very-public-forum, as-was said, where NOT all the viewers are as experienced as-you, with such systems...

Analogy: Just because you might be a guy that goes around firing off tomohawk missiles all-day, day after day, and come home without a scratch, does not make a statement from you that 'model rockets are not dangerous...' true... As others nicely pointed-out, fine - 200mW is *relatively* not as dangerous as your 25kW whatever-laser but to blanketedly-say it's 'not dangerous' is untrue, taken out of context, and is a disservice to those less-experienced readers..
You do NOT have to 'dumb things down' to simply encourage best-practices-while experimenting...

What I consider to be a greater danger is people pretending non-dangerous things are dangerous,...because it leads people who know no better to see the warning and then try it for themselves .. at some point, after their 100mW laser-pointer fails to cause armageddon they come round to thinking "well, thats odd .. it said it was dangerous, it doesnt seem to be .. maybe ALL those warning labels on things can be ignored ..."

Wait... whaaaat?? I vote this the most fallacious-argument of the year... That, or you've just bested Websters in-describing the perfect-example of an IDIOT.

I aim to be accurate, not over cautious. Accurate factual information is better than scare-mongering and exageration.

Two-way street: This forum aims to be accurate, neither over nor under cautious, and dispense accurate factual information vs subjective poo-pooing of best-practices... and, please explain how encouraging 'contextual-comments' about laser-safety in a public-forum is 'scare mongering'?

You might consider 110V mains "dangerous", I don't. You can happily touch it with the back of your finger and live to tell the tale....How do you get that across to people if you've built a repoutation on calling safe things dangerous already?

But #1, you certainly don't go telling people to 'just go stick a fork in that wall-socket, it's not that bad'..... #2, ever hear of teaching thru *examples*, first? ie: Showing someone this, for-example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl2SmamJLy8 to make a 'point' about the danger of proximity with HV - you certainly don't *need* to 'go and TRY that' to-learn from it! ...Sorry, but 'do not look into laser with remaining..' is SATIRE, NOT the ideal way to 'learn from experience'...

End of the day, we appear to live in a world controlled by interfering busy-bodies who ( having failed to get a job as a traffic warden), seek other areas of life for them to stick their snouts.

h, please, no one is 'interfering' we're just as free to react as you are to act... Science, remember?

..amateur science is (thankfully) one of the areas still left alone where motivated individuals can explore the world as they see fit.

Yep, 100% agreed - but encouraging best-practices thru 'warnings' / cautions, still applies... I'm sure 'Roger' would agree...

(by "lasers" I mean experimenting with real lasers, not disco lighting effects)

Tsk, tsk, 'real lasers', as you define that, is totally subjective... and re: 'disco effects', obviously, you've never been to a Laserium-show, for example, where there is true laser-artistry / craftsmanship... 'subjective', you say? well, fyi, over 20 million people would disagree with you...

... providing you are not harming anyone else, I fail to see why it is anyone elses concern what you get up to in your garage.

CAUSE YOU'RE POSTING OPINIONS ABOUT YOUR-OWN, HIGHLY-SUBJECTIVE VIEWS OF SAFETY IN A PUBLIC FORUM, Dear Watson!!!

Screw the "average viewer".

Nice.. However, this is not your forum, nor will any liability likely fall on you, before it falls on its founder... The rest of us, here, care about *both* this forums' longevity, and the 'average viewer'...

I am about sick to here ^^ of the do gooders that are continually trying to save us from ourselves.

OK, well be sure and curse out those 'do gooders' the next time you go put that wretchedly freedom-sapping device, your seat-belt, on, on the motorway...

I'd love to stop, but I really feel the need to go and do that 60W of yag on chicken-leg experiment, as I am in the mood for it now. I'll let you know how it goes.

Please be sure to not 'move the target' again, either - I am talking about doing a test with the likely-available system / cause for cautional-education, around these parts - a Laserscope or equivalent - *not* some 'un-focused YAG, shooting to a piece of wood, 10' away' - Of course, you can make the 'numbers' appear 'safe', if you use irrelevant / out-of-context examples - do the test-scenarios with what a 'n00b' would likely encounter - 1064 off something on the LS-deck, into your knuckles or a dark t-shirt / sweater, etc... however that beam actually-is, or, *might-be*-found, bounding around on the deck...

...oh, and please provide metered-power readings... 'a picture is worth a thousand...' And, also remember, they won't likely encounter only 60W...

*yawn*...
j

---

How many have been hurt by it?

How could we possibly ever-know? Never-will - even injuries that DO happen, may never get reported / documented, as-such... and, obviously, I'm not talking about a popped-eyeball-example, but - I'd be willing to wager - there are *some* retinal-burns out there...

You know what's more dangerous than all those lasers put together? Football.

Completely-agreed, I simply rally against the idea of stating '... football helmets / all-body padding are stupid and totally-un-needed'... not the *right* to opin-such, just how wrong that statements like that *could* be a contributing-factor in some kids' injury...

[steve-o]

I miss the old alt.lasers newsgroup ..

What?? They're still going strong and are presently having a nice heated discussion about anti-riot laser rifles, war and politics. Good place to be .. check it out

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lasers/topics

[rszemeti]

AH ha! yep, OK, I'll go and have a look!

I did read about that anti-riot laser with some discomfort ... not content with electrocuting people, the police now want to blind them as well .. oh dear.

On a technical note, I wonder what wavelength it is on .. there are some wavelengths up in the near UV that cause the aqueous humour in the eye to flouresce, generating a lot of light right inside the eye ... wonder if its up there?

[steve-o]

I suggested that because I thought that you might be happier over there than here with all of us 'safety police'. You can say anything to the pros there because they're off the beaten path, whereas here we do have to 'traffic-warden' the inexperienced due to the fairly high profile of this forum. Capiche?

As far as the rifle, you meant UV, right? Interesting thought. Flourescing the internal eye fluid.

[rszemeti]

Would you like me to buy you a proper hat? You don't HAVE to be a traffic warden, you CHOOSE to be.