Its very greeeeeeeeen

[dsli_jon]

..Are there NO statistics?

http://www.rli.com/resources/accident.aspx ..and here's a smattering of 'lower-power' specific-examples.. might be more, but I'vn't the time to muck-more:

http://www.rli.com/resources/acciden...px?CaseID=5324

http://www.rli.com/resources/acciden...px?CaseID=5337

http://www.rli.com/resources/acciden...px?CaseID=5763

http://www.rli.com/resources/acciden...px?CaseID=5652

http://www.rli.com/resources/acciden...px?CaseID=5651

http://www.rli.com/resources/acciden...px?CaseID=6193

..an a notable higher-power YAG incident.. http://www.rli.com/resources/acciden...px?CaseID=5326

Now, in the case of RLI / this DB, I can conceed that their 'collection' of reports is somewhat 'vague' in some cases, and - possibly-even could be said to be 'conflicted', since RLI stands to 'profit' from sales of their products / services.. (...ie: a collection of 'scary-stories' could be-said to also 'conveniently' serve their sales-aims... ) however, I'm fairly certain all those 'cases' were not *manufactured* by RLI, just to drum-up sales, etc...

..And like I said - how many more *are* there, out there, that we'll never know about, because a) the damage was slight (..yet is there..) b) it never got 'reported', because the person never went to an eye-doctor for an exam, c) even those that did, likely many cases never make it into such a DB / collection like RLI's... yeah, Docs should report-such to the CDRH, et al, but, those specific regs are more directed to the *workplace* / laser-system-owners, not necessarily an onus on the Docs that observed / treated... So, there well-may be many other-cases, in Doctor-vaults, that we, the public, will never see, cause they're not submitted to such publicly-searchable sites / DBs, etc...

Additionally - sure - even this DB does not portray a 'torrent' of injuries, left and right - like you said... 'carnage' - but that's not the point - but neither is how many / how often - or even, that laser-injuries DO occur - that's not the 'queja' from this thread... The 'issue' I simply took was better qualifying the statements-made, about the YAG - or any laser - and yeah - the, frankly misleading - when taken out of context - statements about 200mW, etc... some *eye surgery* is performed with 250mW - or less - of Argon... So...

This is all somewhat similar - like my comments on seat-belts - to the whole 'helmet laws'-issue, as well - I can understand how people get all riled-up about 'my head / my choice - don't you dare force me to put a cap on, if I don't want to, dammit!' Fine - but, just like with seat-belts - in-spite of the LAWS - people are STILL FREE to do whatever the frack they want - sure, they may get 'a ticket', where it's the law, but no one is FORCED to put them on... heck, you CAN go buy a gun and blow your head off, if you WANT-to..

..but, just because you MIGHT be 'able to wave your hand thru 60W of YAG w/o much immediate catastrophic-damage, compared to a 2.5kW CO2', doesn't mean it's a good-idea to go posting - unqualified - such a cavalier attitude... just like you'd get 'trounced on' for, ie: posting on, say, an EMT-blogs site, how 'seat-belts are stupid / un-necessary' ..or on a gun-forum, how 'gun safety is highly-overstated / exaggerated' etc, etc, etc..

...Anyhoo, I'm skipping the record, again... ..but I will-add that this is all NOT 'nanny-statery', here, either, because no one is getting 'banned' for having these open-debates, ya?

PS - thanks, Steve-o, for that other link...

ciao
j

[White-Light]

A few more examples.

This chipboard was burned by my 2 watt Kvant (making 2.8 W) from a distance of around 30 feet during power testing.

The worst burn (in the 2nd picture) was cause by 3 or 4 seconds exposure.

Some of the others on the 1st piece of chipboard by around 1 second.

Admittedly this was a projected unmodulated static test beam and a modulated beam wouldn't have been anywhere near as dangerous. However, if this can do this to chipboard in around a second, imagine what it could do when focused to the back of an eye:

Around 1-2 seconds exposure (longer on the far right hand one):




Around 4 seconds exposure on the reverse side of the board (picture as a close up):



There's a 2-3mm pit in the surface on this one. If you look carefully especially around the top, you can actually see the edge of the surface.

A second of exposure literally has the board smoking!

This is 18 mm chipboard by the way and piece in the picture is around a 8-10 inches wide.

[rszemeti]

You entirely mis-represent my position.

Remember how I wrote WAY early in thread about the checks I make before turning the full power beam on? Exactly the same sort of checks a competent and safe shooter makes before placing a shot. Downrange clear, good backstop etc.

My point is not akin to going onto a gun forum and suggesting gun-safety is highly overstated (and as a regular shooter, I fully appreciate gun safety) ...

Its more like a bunch of airgun shooters going on about how they are so skilled in the use of their dangerous weapons ... and trying to stop people talking about shooting at tin cans because some kid once got a pellet in the eye ... meanwhile, the real shooters who spend their weekends shooting .50 cal down range (note: thats not you Californians, you all got banned from .50 cals a few years back) roll around laughing at you painting safety zones around your BB guns.

I'd happily use a BB gun or one of your disco lighting effect lasers in the dining room, I class them as non-dangerous *provided* they are used with a modicum of common sense. If you would like to try the same experiment with either 2kW C02 or a 50 cal, be my guest, then perhaps we can begin to discuss what "dangerous" actually means.

You can try either on that damn chicken too if you want.

[White-Light]

You entirely mis-represent my position.


I'd happily use a BB gun or one of your disco lighting effect lasers in the dining room

The danger is relative but if you think a 1 or 2W laser is safe to use in a dining room (I'm assuming you don't own the Albert Hall here), then you're mistaken. Unless BAM'ed or lensed it poses a serious threat to your retinas even when modulated.

[resonator]

Mode burns never thought i'd see that here.

[Eidetic]

Thanks Steve-O and Jon for the references. I looked at the Rockwell site and filtered their database for pointers, and found 7 out of 32 since 1964 that resulted in some permanent injury. And they're commercially motivated to publish everything they can find! Half of the other 25 reports are "he pointed a laser at me and freaked me out". In 30+ years working with many different lasers as a laser tech and holographer, with plenty of occasions with drunk & stoned people around and in home labs and art studios, I've only known ONE who had a permanent blind spot in one eye because of his admitted stupidity in looking upstream for a scum on a mirror of an 18W argon. I wonder how many instances of permanent injury are similarly personally known by the collected membership of this forum?

You entirely mis-represent my position.

Remember how I wrote WAY early in thread about the checks I make before turning the full power beam on? Exactly the same sort of checks a competent and safe shooter makes before placing a shot. Downrange clear, good backstop etc.

My point is not akin to going onto a gun forum and suggesting gun-safety is highly overstated (and as a regular shooter, I fully appreciate gun safety) ...

Its more like a bunch of airgun shooters going on about how they are so skilled in the use of their dangerous weapons ... and trying to stop people talking about shooting at tin cans because some kid once got a pellet in the eye ... meanwhile, the real shooters who spend their weekends shooting .50 cal down range (note: thats not you Californians, you all got banned from .50 cals a few years back) roll around laughing at you painting safety zones around your BB guns.

I'd happily use a BB gun or one of your disco lighting effect lasers in the dining room, I class them as non-dangerous *provided* they are used with a modicum of common sense. If you would like to try the same experiment with either 2kW C02 or a 50 cal, be my guest, then perhaps we can begin to discuss what "dangerous" actually means.

You can try either on that damn chicken too if you want.

Well said, but don't expect many more here to agree. This is an application based forum, and everyone spends a lot of time and money dealing with the federal nannies on in-your-face laser safety issues. I think it's unfortunate that LPF is the best place for those with interest in lasers per se, because of their trite and sophomoric hierarchy of spitball throwers (to continue your analogy) and the "rep" system that keeps it in place. In both cases though, it's *their* party and if they want a safety disclaimer before any post with adult content, so be it.

[rszemeti]

Thats fair enoug, but, they will have to add the disclaimer themselves, as I can't be arsed.

I've only known ONE who had a permanent blind spot in one eye because of his admitted stupidity in looking upstream for a scum on a mirror of an 18W argon.

ROFLMAO! .. do not stare into beam with remaining eye!

It's like looking down the barrel of a gun ... you make damn sure its unloaded and breech open first! (you should have a peek st my progressive twist Lothar Walther barrel some day, I still have no idea how you cut a different twist rate into a barrel from one end to the other)

[steve-o]

Woo-hoo!! I'm back online at home. Means I get to drink an' post (which, I guess, is what everybody's used to ..)
Hey rszemeti I just googled "rszemeti" and got a lot of good shit! Is this U?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLlaswSomyM

[Doc]

If it is then we can add +1 to the huge list of laser guitarists on this forum; there must be an underlying link between the two interests.

[rszemeti]

I'm not exactly hard to find ... but I am crap at playing guitar, I gave that up as a bad idea some years ago.