Official pangolin post: Pangolin holiday special offers

[LaserMarketerJTP]

Hello Everyone,

This is Justin Perry from Pangolin. First, I want to wish all of you a wonderful holiday season. We at Pangolin hope you enjoy the season with your friends and family.

I wanted to post on Photon Lexicon, and share the great holiday specials that we have running with all of you. Pangolin is offering fantastic deals on just about all of our products, and this is a GREAT chance to get many of your favorite Pangolin laser goodies, at a fraction of the price.

Click here to see the official Pangolin Holiday Special Offers: http://pangolin.com/holiday/holidaypricing.html

If you are interested in these specials, please contact your local Pangolin dealer. You can see a list of official Pangolin dealers here: http://www.pangolin.com/dealerlist.htm

If you have any questions on these offers, or need additional information, feel free to contact me directly (justin@pangolin.com).

Take care, and again... Happy Holidays from your friends here at Pangolin!

Best Regards,

Justin Perry
Director of Marketing and Finance
Pangolin Laser Systems Inc.
ILDA Board of Directors

Work: (407) 299-2088
Cell: (321) 948-2600
Fax: (407) 299-6066

Web: www.pangolin.com; www.pangolinsms.com;www.pangolinplugins.com; www.bealaserdj.com

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[chad]

Hi "LaserMarketerJTP",

If you want to use this forum for advertizing then contribute to it. Pangolin has sold a bunch of product because of this forum.
This place has a large member list and lots of very good information on laser display. It is 100% your 'target' market. In addition to that there are no banner adds, popups, selling of emails or any other monetizing efforts. It is supported by people who use it.

chad

[buffo]

Jon, I have a real problem with this line of thinking.

First, you are forgetting that PL is still a very small piece of the laser show industry pie. Sure, it's popular with hobbyists, but don't over-estimate it's importance. If PL went away tomorrow, the industry would still be there and would still be doing just fine. It would absolutely suck for hobbyists to lose such a great resource, but in the grand scheme of things it would not be an earth-shattering event to the industry as a whole. (Put another way, the industry did just fine for more than 2 decades without PL's help. It could do just fine without it in the future if it had to.)

Along that same line of thinking, you *MUST* realize that sales to hobbyists make up a very small portion of the total laser show industry. Thus, even though Pangolin is the industry leader, the hobbiest section of that industry is trivial by comparison to the whole. As an example, Bill has mentioned several times at past LEM's that the Asian market is where most of the sales (and thus most of the market growth) is located. Now, how many asian members do we have on PL? Not many... Thus, the PL membership represents a tiny minority of Pangolin's total volume.

So what if Pangolin sells 20 or 30 controllers per year to PL members? They sell THOUSANDS of controllers each year. Thus PL sales are fractions of a percent of their total volume. If you do a cost-benefit analysis, it's very clear that any time they spend in the hobbyist market is more or less wasted, since that time could be beter spent developing more professional clients in Asia. The truth is that we, as members of PL and representatives of the hobbyist community, should be thankful that Pangolin is willing to spend any time here at all. They clearly have much bigger fish to fry.

In my opinion, we should be grateful that Pangolin participates at all. You don't see anyone from MediaLas attending LEM's, do you? How about representatives from Kvant? Coherent? Arctos? Cambridge? You want Pangolin to start behaving like everyone else in the laser industry?

On to the issue of financial contributions: We've already shown that Pangolin derives very little of their business from this forum. But what we haven't talked about is how much they already contribute to the community, both by attending Laser Enthusiast's Meetings and by offering discounts and free upgrades to hobbyists. As a recent example, let me remind you that anyone who attended Bill's presentation at SELEM this year was offered a FREE LICENCE for the full pro version of Beyond 1.0 software. (Yes, this includes the new 3D modeling module.) That represents a *huge* benefit to the hobbyists present, since it is otherwise a very expensive upgrade. Did you count deeds like this in your assessment of what Pangolin has given to the community?

I for one am very grateful for Bill's participation, both here in the forums and at the various LEM's he's attended. He has performed free training, he has offered discounts and free items to numerous members, and he has spent a good bit of his own money (not to mention his very valuable time) to support these events. He has also contributed financially to PL in the past. Also, Robert himself was offered an outstanding discount on a full-meal Pro LD-2000 system (back when such a system was considerably more expensive than it is today), which he accepted. To continue to ask for more and more sounds like begging to me.

The bottom line is that hobbyists gain the most from having PL available. Pangolin's benefit is trivial by comparison. If PL went away tomorrow, Pangolin would still be doing just fine. But the hobbyist community would suffer a great deal. Thus, it only makes sense for the people who gain the most benefit from having PL available be the ones who help support it. And in fact, that is exactly what is currently happening. The subscription system already generates 3X the revenue needed to keep PL funded.

Trying to guilt companies into forking out more money is a dangerous game when you realize that we benefit more from their presence than they do from ours. They could very easily just leave.

The other problem that I have with this line of thinking is that we both know there is a hidden agenda: Spec needs funds to live on because he is unemployed. And while I agree that this situation is approaching crisis status, trying to wring a few extra dollars per month out of PL is not going to solve the problem. So rather than wasting time on something that won't solve the problem (and might actually alienate a desirable contributor to the forums), I'd like to see some constructive discussion about ideas that WILL provide Rob with a living wage.

In other words, let's acknowledge the elephant that is sitting in the room. Then let's talk about some realistic ways to deal with it, rather than beating around the bush.

Adam

[chad]

For me it is real simple. You want to sell stuff here, fine, pitch in 'something'.

I do contribute, and as a contributor I don't want to subsidize a large company's marketing effort. If us unwashed hobbyists are inconsequential why does pangolin buy banners on laserFreak? We are the same size. I like the fact that this place has no banners. I wandered to LPF the other day and counted 45 banners on each page, keep it classy LPF. Is that what we want here?

As for how much rob is making from the forums. He has every right to make whatever he can from this place. And yes I agree a more substantial long term is a much better solution. I have no illusions that this forum could replace gainful employment.

All this is my opinion. And we all know what opinions are worth

chad

[buffo]

So you're saying that, now that PL has become a popular place, Pangolin needs to pay up or else? That is, frankly, bullshit Jon. That's not the spirit Rob had when he founded this place.

No one was begging Bill to pay back when he joined. Everyone was happy to have him here. Now suddenly this is a major issue. Why? What has changed Jon?

I agree that it would be nice if everyone subscribed. But world peace would be nice too. The reality is that people contribute in different ways, and the vast majority don't contribute at all. I'm not going to go down the road of trying to brow-beat people into contributing. More importantly, I damn sure am not going to brow-beat someone like Bill (edit: or one of his employees, namely Justin above) who already contributes far more to the community at large than any subscription ever could.

Since you and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum on this, maybe it's best if we move this into PM territory. There is enough drama on the forums as it is.

Adam

[Banthai]

Hi guys ... just want to butt in here ....
as you know im quite pro Pangolin .... but without getting too complicated about this .... its great that Bill does pop in here ... and contribute .... i wish more companies did

but taking it back to Justins first post ( and im sure Justin will agree looking back ) my main concerns were reading it were

1, This is the Lounge and it is frowned upon anyone selling anything here even the longest most upstanding member woulnt do it
2, because people tend to follow by example ... other " far east " companies would start selling there as well
3, justin had made a post in the buy sell section but double posted here
4, Merry Christmas
5, goto 1,

all the best ... Karl

[White-Light]

Hi guys ... just want to butt in here ....
as you know im quite pro Pangolin .... but without getting too complicated about this .... its great that Bill does pop in here ... and contribute .... i wish more companies did

Exactly. Pangolin give a lot back to the members of this forum through direct personal support.

Also, why are we not hearing calls for Fiesta or Phoenix to contribute also? I detect a little anti-Pangolin sentiment here.

If Pangolin want to contribute to Rob then that's great, don't let me stop them. I'm sure Rob will appreciate it and it will help out but don't forget what they give to this community in terms of support -

- How many other companies CEO's spare the time to answer questions on here personally?

- How many other CEO's come to LEM's and share help, tune lasers, reveal secrets and give free demonstrations and lectures at those LEM's that would otherwise cost hundreds of dollars to book?

....and all that's especially valuable when you consider it's often the CEO in person who takes the time to contribute especially when as Adam says, you start to take into account just how small a share of their sales the hobbyist actually represents.

[buffo]

So in your mind, if Pangolin pays their $120 per year, everything is fine then, right?

Now what if Bill decides it's not worth it for him to attend SELEM anymore? Don't you think that alone is worth $120? Because I sure do.

Pangolin already contributes a *great* deal to this community. Brow-beating them over a subscription is like looking a gift horse in the mouth. It makes us all look like ingrateful fools.

Adam

EDIT: Jon removed his post, so even though it looks like I'm replying to White-Light, I was actually replying to Jon. No matter; it seems that we're all on the same page now.

[dsli_jon]

"...any/all advertisers - even indie-members with a 'sales URL' in their Sig. line - equally"


..and no, I'm the only fool.

[Pangolin]

Hi guys,

Interesting discussion here. Since it involves Pangolin, I'll make a few points.

First, there's one thing I hope everyone will remember, and that is that I too started as a hobbyist. I remember the days when everything with the word "laser" in it cost at least $500. For example, a "laser" scanner or a "laser" mirror to attach to the scanner, or even a HeNe for that matter. Every next thing you needed costed $500. As a kid on a college budget, I couldn't afford anything more than a simple HeNe, and then fashioned my own scanners, and shone the laser through shower door glass and such. Basically, I got my start in the same way many others have here as well. Because of my heritage, and also because of the fact that when I started information was truly scarce, I am happy to contribute to the laser enthusiast community, both monetarily as well as information wise. That's one reason why I come to every SELEM and LaserFreak meeting. It's definitely not about sales (hehe, if it were, we'd be utter failures because at most meetings we don't sell a single thing), but rather it's to meet new friends and to share information.

Second, we have contributed monetarily to PL in the past. There were several times when we made PayPal payments, and did so happily. In the past, we did it when it was suggested to us. For example, the very first time it was like "Hey Bill, a bunch of us here on PL are contributing to a gift to PL, would you do so as well?" Like it was a Christmas gift or something like that. Basically, unexpected. If memory served, this happened twice. Basically, any time it has been suggested that we pitch in, we have done so. I did not know that there was a formal monthly or annual sponsorship, since nobody made me aware of that in the past. However, if someone sends me a private message with the PayPal info (sorry, I've lost it...), we will gladly do so again.

Third, I'm sure that Justin didn't really know the etiquette of the forum, insomuch that he should not post information of a sales or advertising nature outside the Buy/Sell section, and definitely not to double-post. I am sure this is a good learning experience for him and I hope you'll overlook this transgression.

And lastly, we don't make much money from this community and I am sure many folks in this community have (generally untold) stories of where we have given things for free, or at a deep discount. To me, making sales is not the point of our participation. The point is to meet new people and make new friends.

I am always fascinated by the folks we meet at the various SELEM and LaserFreak meetings. For example, "Stuka" the helecopter test pilot, or "MechEng3" the mechanical engineer or "TnT" the couple who make music, and now do lasers too, and we cant forget "Buffo" the former nuclear sub captain. (OK, maybe not captain, but definitely nuclear sub something or another...). Even Jonathan Rheem (sorry I forget your nickname here on PL) who I not only met at SELEM, but who then helped us out at our tradeshow booth in San Francisco last year. And of course "Admin" Robert, the founder of PL, who had a great vision when creating this site. Everyone here has a really fascinating story, and I would have never met these folks if not for PL and LaserFreak and the associated meetings.

I hope with our continued participation, anybody who has a negative impression (who would surely only be those people we've never met) will walk away with a positive impression, and see that for us, life is indeed about building a community of friends, and sharing our passion for laser light, and how it can help people.


Best regards,

William Benner