Outdoor advertising with lasers

[Foxtrot7]

Okay gang...I have to say, I'm a little cautious about this post. There has been a bunch of really tough feedback lately and I'm sure this will draw some as well.

I was brainstorming for some additional ways to earn a living using lasers and was thinking of offering advertising for companies on the outside of their buildings. I wanted to see if anyone knew how difficult the process is to get the FAA/FDA to allow for such an application. I would think; as long as I have a compliant/varianced projector, am in good graces with the FDA, properly insured, keep the projector manned, project against a fixed target and am not projecting within the path of people...I'd be okay. Wishful thinking?

I see this is being done quite a bit overseas, but we all know they live by very different rules.

Any thoughts or opinions....other than this is selling out and not true to our art form?

Thanks all!

F7

[gottaluvlasers]

foxtrot-

we tend to "be harsh" when people do or say silly/dangerous things. you asking questions BEFORE going out and doing this is quite the opposite and I/we applaud you for asking!

Advertising with lasers can be a lucrative way of earning money with your Laser.

I wanted to see if anyone knew how difficult the process is to get the FAA/FDA to allow for such an application.

It isnt dificult. Time consuming and a little effort, yes. Dificult- Nah. You need to find out your area FAA rep and you need to fill out a 7140 form. If you are serious with this , just type "Faa 7140 form" in google and youll see the "proposed outdoor laser operations" (something of that sort) form.

I would think; as long as I have a compliant/varianced projector, am in good graces with the FDA

Yes and no. Are you SURE you have a varianced projector? Who sold it to you or what make is it? Just because you have a variance doesnt mean you can automatically go out and start shooting buildings. As you stated, you still need to notify FAA and *RECEIVE A REPLY* form stating they have no objections to your show(s). If your entire planned show is terminated, 99% of the time they wll have not objections.

keep the projector manned, project against a fixed target and am not projecting within the path of people...I'd be okay. Wishful thinking?

No. This is all assumed for any laser show company at any show. You need to fill out the FAA paperwork with specific above and beyond questions and studies you need ot do for your specific application. Map coordinates, headings, corrected powers, proposed effects, long/lat...etc...etc.

Any thoughts or opinions....other than this is selling out and not true to our art form?

I dont think ANY Laserist/laser company would say that. And if they did, tell them to F off. lol. You can make alot of money doing marketing like this. Its a great application for lasers. WHEN DONE RIGHT, PROFESSIONALLY AND SAFELY!!!

-Marc

[Foxtrot7]

Marc,

What a great reply...thank you so much.

Best

[mixedgas]

A couple of Verdis or OPSL and a couple of scanheads are cheaper then a LED array by far, and just as reliable if installed properly.

Modern motion sensors are good, and you'll have no trouble coming up with a favorable "Safety Case" if you hire the right person and use proper mechanical masking.

Why would some one object to a terminated 100% graphics display?

I have a cheap way of making your sign/screen useful in daylight, with no moving parts. Call me if your looking for the technology.

The key is to run 30% adverts and then use clipart /public service messages for the rest. That is what the Blimp types do.
Make "eye candy". The Goodyear blimp is annoying, but because of the nightsign, it is so lovable. Complaining about it is Un-American. That is your model.

Other then sign laws, done right, this should be a good business model.

Steve

[planters]

Because of the requirement to "man" the lasers, I would think that this type of display would quickly run up significant "operating" cost. Is this not true?

In general, are there certain cut off thresholds for power/distance/size/duration that trigger more complex approvals?

[mixedgas]

No, automated laser systems have been approved.

There are specific requirements requiring a tougher standard, and the sole word that triggers it is "Unmanned".

If your only scanning 50 feet to a sign, the source laser is way off the ground, and everything is terminated 100% and masked, why would this be ANY different then a manned system?

The law says it is, but the law does not take account for modern safety technology.

To do this right, if it is unmanned, is going to require a good choice of location, and proper engineering.

However, when a large LED sign is upwards of, what, half a Megabuck, the laser starts to look attractive.

Steve

[dsli_jon]

Heya Fox..

Heh, Marc, ya beat me to it, lol.. Good-show, m8... Couple things to-add..

you asking questions BEFORE going out and doing this is quite the opposite and I/we applaud you for asking!

Heartily-seconded! First thing I was gonna say to ya...

It isnt dificult. Time consuming and a little effort, yes. Dificult- Nah. You need to find out your area FAA rep and you need to fill out a 7140 form. ..just type "Faa 7140 form" in google ..

Mmm, I think we can 'do a little better than that'.. ..Fox - please visit our 'Wiki' - in-case you already-haven't - http://www.photonlexicon.com/wiki/in...dies_in_the_US - The Page / info-link you need, is in-here: http://www.photonlexicon.com/wiki/index.php?title=FAA ...since you're in MD, that falls-in the Eastern Region, so your 'Airspace Specialist' is Pete Acevedo, a real nice, down-to earth, reasonable Gent... and he knows his *...

However, I'll say this.. '..isn't difficult' is a bit of an oversimplification for someone at a 'beginner-level' - that math can be pretty-daunting, and - if done incorrectly - will most-likely lead them to not-approve your show, and/or lead them to the, perhaps incorrect conclusion, that you, as a "Co" / entity, may 'not really know what you are doing' / lead to them not being particularly-responsive to you, in the future... ie; I seem to remember, having a 'break-it-down-session' w/ a certain *cough cough* other Sho Co posting in this *cough* when he was cuttin his-teeth on the 7140, and I believe that was a good 'boost', in starting his Co's relationship with them...

..granted, for 'Fully-Terminated' shows, you really don't *need* the 'open-airspace calcs' - which *greatly-simplifies* the 7140-prep, however, there are still certain-aspects of the form, that - and, to my 'main point', you, Fox - as a 'beginner' - will benefit from getting some 'seasoned-coaching', when it comes-time to prep your first-sub...

..ie: What's 'azimuth', and how do you determine it? What is the best-way to determine "elevation", as they-define it? (..actual location-elevation above sea-level + the height of your rig / set-up, etc..) - There are some very-useful 'tools' out there, that will help you... Yes, there is also a 'software-package', etc, but - best you *learn from the core*, vs 'using a ladder', like a software-solution.. Once you understand the fundamentals, of what they're asking-for / WHY, and master getting approvals from them - on your own merits / calcs - then, down the road, sure - software it up, to save some time, etc..

..of course, this is all 'my opinion', but, I'll be happy to assist you / walk you thru the 7140 whys / wherefores, sometime, once you're 'ready'.. but, as Marc-pointed out, focus on getting your Cert'd-gear / Variance, and have *plenty* of discussion with some 'seasoned pros', perhaps even ask to 'shadow' an outdoor show - you've got a World-Class Co, right there in Baltimore - first, (crawl then, you can... Well, you get it..

Dos centavitos...
j

[mixedgas]

If this is a manned install, there less then 2 weeks, and far from a airport, he faces the same rules as a traditional laser show.

If he's looking for a long term, fixed, and unmanned, install, he's going to need a consultant who has been at this a while.

We do not know the scale of his proposed project.

It is good, that he came and asked questions.

I just Googled the LED outside sign companies. They are all "price on request" and want a NDA on pricing just to talk to you. The same is going to be true for a large fixed laser install, because the initial business plan, by its nature, is going to give away much of the knowledge.

Steve

[Foxtrot7]

Thank you all. Great info and super friendly....the reason I'm a member here.

@Jon...a wealth of great info as well. I will begin to do my research. Thanks for the specifics...names, links, etc... What company are you referring to in my area?

I think I'll do okay with the measurements as I'm a bit familiar with surveying...was a contractor/designer for the past 15 years. That being said, a mentor will definitely be a huge help. I wont jump right in and I'll be sure all my ducks are in a row. I had a funny thought while thinking this whole thing through...wouldn't it be cool to buy an old news van that still had a operable satellite tower. Mount the projector to the top and raise her up. Great idea, but even used I bet outrageously expensive.

Thanks again...I'm going to continue my research and you can bet I'll be back in touch.

Best

T

[dsli_jon]

Hey F7

@Jon... What company are you referring to in my area?

Well.. I try not to 'advertise for competition', so... ..but you can find them, here, under 'MD' http://www.laserist.org/Directory_Ge...nited%20States ..only ones in Baltimore...

..wouldn't it be cool to buy an old news van that still had a operable satellite tower.

Heh, you mean, like this? ..Edit - crud, I can't find the pic... PM Sir Pat B - 'Laserman532'.. he, uh, used to 'have one'.. I think he might have even invented-it.. at-least, the one w/ 50W of Green comin out the top...

IIRC, Sir Jem, and/or someone else, over UK-way, was doing / is-doing something like that, also... Laser Innovations, UK, also used to have *the*-coolest laser-rig, ever, imo.. Totally-tricked-out Tour-Bus, w/ just about every-type of high-power / full-color laser available, at the time...Projection-windows, right out the side, paneled cam-lok / quick-disconnect connex - it's own onboard genny - full programming 'suite', 'bar / lounge'... it was the *ultimate* Laser-Pimpmobile...
..Maybe some UK-brethren have some pix of that puppy, archived?

Will be glad to help, as best I can, down the road...
j