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Thread: "CE" control mark laser projectors

  1. #1
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    Default "CE" control mark laser projectors

    We all are talking about safety regulations so now and then, but do we all have a CE control mark at our projectors and does our projectors agree with the appropriate regulations?
    As far as i could check we are obliged to have one in the EU.
    It doesn't matter if there homemade, as long as you use them in public the builder has to proof that they are in line with the regulations.
    It could be that some authority will confiscate your equipment if there not build within the regulations. (i think some authority like the ARBO would do this in the Netherlands).
    I know that there will be minimum control on this, but i foresee with the upcoming EU rules which are expanding by the day these rules will be getting tighter.

    And i hear some of you think:" well then i'll place a marker on it".
    If you do so, think twice because using this marker will say that if they find something in the projector which is not as it's described in the regulations you will have allot of trouble.
    And what about if a accident will happen, they want to see the projectors for sure and you'll risk that your insurance company will say that they will not cover the damage!

    I couldn't find any documents which describes the detailed regulations, but when i found them i'll add them to this topic.

  2. #2
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    ┐Please rephrase the question?

    The actual CE marker (without the addition of a notified body) has little meaning.
    If the product has in fact CE, it should come with (or the supplier should have little difficulty supplying ) a letter of CE-conformity.

    Selling products without CE compliance is considered (in the first place) an economical-crime, because you offer unfair competition to the companies that do comply.

    On the liability question:
    If you do shows professionally, and you want your insurance company to cover (personal) damage caused by laser projectors, I think it is VERY wise to contact them beforehand to know IF they cover this damage in the first place.
    And secondly, if they do, what they think what regulations your equipment should meet.
    And thirdly, have this documented !
    Last edited by -bart-; 12-27-2012 at 00:13.

  3. #3
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    Hi Bart,

    It's not a question, i just want to warn.
    I'm not a member for a long time but i see allot of people building here projectors there own and doing shows with it, including myself.
    I'm not doing shows with them already but want to do it in the future, i just start building.

    Quote: "The actual CE marker (without the addition of a notified body) has little meaning."

    Not anymore Bart, check the link to the wiki page i've placed a link just a little further in my answer.
    In Europa (the Netherlands in your and my case) the meaning of the CE marker isn't harmless anymore, since the government forces you to have it (for as far as i could see since 2008 for laser's and relative equipment).
    The CE marker has a different meaning, as supplier you agree that you follow all the rules which are made for the product group.
    If you don't have it your infraction.
    I could post the link to the documents but there dutch and most here can't read them, but the Wiki page says also it has 2 meanings, the less meaning and the one forced by law.

    As i hear some of the people say across the ocean, importing projectors to the USA isn't allowed if used in public when they not follow all the regulations for safety.
    It seems we are not that far from the same rules anymore.

    I totally agree with the last sentences you wrote!

  4. #4
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    That is a very good thread imho. I always wanted to know exactly what's required to apply the CE label onto my projectors.
    I believe one of the most important one is to respect the low voltage directive for user protection. Here is a very interesting guide to read

  5. #5
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    Well there's a big problem with the CE mark - it's useless as it appears that many Chinese manufacturers allegedly use a CE mark that looks almost identical and they call it Chinese Export:



    From the picture here it appears the only difference is a slightly longer central arm on the "E" and a smaller spacing.

    There's an article on it here:

    http://www.boatingbusiness.com/news1...na-export-mark

    I admit I can't tell the difference unless its pointed out as above.

    It' something thats been heard of on here for years.

    Why the EU don't change the mark is beyond me as the current one is useless as almost no-one in the public can tell the difference and most people have never heard of China Export.

    However, as you point out, EU businesses must comply with the law, irrespective.

  6. #6
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    Ha! That reminds me of Usa, Japan! They made things there for sale here in the USA that said made in USA!
    Creator of LaserBoy!
    LaserBoy is free and runs in Windows, MacOSX and Linux.
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  7. #7
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    @ White-light

    And there is no one in the EU who blocks all the products because these Chinese people are copying everything they can.

  8. #8
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    There doesn't seem to be any shortage of Chinese products in the UK with the CE (china) mark or any problem getting them off ebay and importing them (although most legitimate shops seem to stock China marked goods anyway):

    eg Laserworld projector for sale from a legitimate UK store - this looks very much like the Chinese CE mark:



    I bought a child's satchel off Amazon.co.uk before Christmas - it shipped from Tailand and was made in China with CE mark. Luckily its good qaulity.

    However, never got stopped at customs or any questions asked. Never even had to pay duty. Amazon is a very well respected retailer.

    Best thing the EU can do is change their approval logo - something like "EU" star logo with approved underneath would be far better. The current CE mark does nothing for consumers as most can't tell the Chinese and EU CE marks apart and CE gives the Chinese a very easy to explain away logo. The EU star would be a far harder logo to explain if something similar showed:

    Last edited by White-Light; 12-27-2012 at 12:41.

  9. #9
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    I think that the EU would do something like that in the nearby future, there changing allot at the moment.
    Our government already warned that they are going to be strictly about the laserpointers, but i wouldn't be surprised as they also make some extra rules for projectors.

  10. #10
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    Through the EC Official Journal that is published at regular intervals on the EC website, various product standards are listed as being applicable to products placed on the market or put into use in the European Community. These product standards define the minimum features that ‘shall’ be present on products, and as such, allow conformity to be claimed, which as has already been discussed is through the placing of a ‘CE’ identification on the product, and the additional provision of a ‘Declaration of Conformity’ certificate, usually by the manufacturer.

    Interestingly, although the CE id and Declaration of Conformity are usually carried out by manufacturers, the legal duty is actually on the supplier of the product. That means that Far Eastern (or indeed any) manufacturers have no legal obligation to carry this part of the process out. The liability falls squarely on the EU supplier. Therefore when someone is importing a product from outside the EU, the duty is on that person to ensure the product is correctly CE marked, and provide the Declaration of Conformity. ( A manufacturer in the EU is usually the supplier too, which is why its usual in that instance for the manufacturer to undertake this).

    The product safety standard that relates to laser products is, (no surprise…), the Euronorm (EN) version of the IEC 60825-1:2007 standard. Therefore if a laser product has all the features required by the current version of the standard (listed in the OJ), as long as the other product standards relating to the product are met (e.g. electrical safety, EMC emissions and susceptibility etc), it can be considered as demonstrating compliance, and the supplier can make the declaration required to supply the product legally in the EC.

    I see a lot of light show projectors, and it is a sorry state of affairs, with even many of the ‘big names’ failing their customers by not reading the laser safety product standard. Yet they make claims that their products are ‘Laser Safety Compliant’, and put a CE identification on it.

    Earlier this year I became a full member of the IEC committee responsible for laser product safety, and it was interesting to see how standards are formulated, and the wording is put together clearly, so that anyone manufacturing a laser product can read it, and be clear on what features are necessary to be incorporated into the product. But time and time again, I see projectors being supplied with incorrect or missing safety labelling, missing interlock connector features, and the most common fault. No power supply reset feature. I haven’t seen many user manuals that meet the minimum requirements of the standard either.

    Light show manufacturers must simply be ignoring the laser safety standard. For where do they get the impression that US still labels should be used? Or the reset and interlock not being required, or oddly, adding an annoying 20 sec start up delay (which is not required by any IEC standard).

    As I say it’s a little irritating that a ‘standard’ way of implementing features is documented, and is a legal requirement, but most light show manufacturers choose to ignore it. Some having the cheek complain about the non-compliant laser projects littering eBay and the disco shops.

    Anyway the point is,…. buyer beware. You would think that spending several thousand euros on a projector that has a ‘CE mark’ on it, means that you have bought a product that meets the minimum product safety requirements. But unfortunately, that is rarely the case with many light show laser projectors.

    The reason the market is full of so many non-compliant laser products on the likes of eBay etc, is simply because there is a lack of government resources to tackle them. I am aware of small numbers of laser projectors having been impounded by the authorities and suppliers loosing their stock because it was incorrectly CE marked. But this is by far the exception rather than the norm.

    People do, and will continue to get away with selling and using dodgy laser kit. It’s only when something goes wrong will closer scrutiny be given. And with the ever increasing powers the inexperienced are getting their hands on, it will only be a matter of time regrettably. But with limited resources, priority is given to more mainstream products that suffer similar deficiencies.

    To those of you making your own laser projectors, (or those concerned that your projector is not compliant – and you’ve had no joy with your supplier), I really would recommend adding Rob Stanley’s little ILDA interface board, which features the interlock and power supply reset as required by the IEC 60825-1:2007 standard.

    If you are interested in the standard and don’t want to shelve out the ~200 euro for the full standard, your local library will have a copy you can view (and usually print excerpts of) in its reference section.

    James
    Laser Safety
    http://www.lvroptical.com
    http://www.facebook.com/LaserSafety

    - Laser Show Safety Training, Assessment, and Realtime MPE Measurement
    - Pangolin PASS System Integrator

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