post your eye melty abstracts here

[laserist]

Just for the record Laser Images' 1st computer was a 6 board wire wrapped Master's Thesis project. It had an 8 bit 6502 microprocessor. It had a really primitive implimentation of Basic. This was all before the original Apple came out. Long before the the first IBM PC. All of our hardware was hand built. None of it is in any way compatible with anything you've got today. YES - I'm a Dinosaur. I've got nothing you can just dust off and use. The original Laserium show was done with non feedback scanners that defined the word slow! The 2nd show used G-124's which were also non feedback and only marginally faster. Every single one of you has more horsepower than we did at your disposal today. It's never been about the f**king hardware, and the software from my era was all written in assembly and fit on a 2kbyte eprom - So I doubt any of you would be all that impressed with the "source code" either. I'd have to find an eprom burner that could read it - and I doubt anyone who isn't a dinosar has a 6502 to run it on - and since everthing was done with non feedback scanners it would look like shit on your systems in any case! I do think that some of the discrete electronics were cool, but a lot of the components just aren't available any more, and the best bits have been outted in any case.

So the simple truth is you're crying for the moon...

[absolom7691]

Brian, I think you're missing the point (at least from my perspective). What about technique? No, you can't teach someone to be an artist but you can teach them about the art and they'll either excel or fail based on skill, creativity and determination. You can share the benefit of your experience. Most of your posts are about the art and not the tools, the artist and not the machine. You give a lot of technical information about the hardware but you actually give very little of the "best" tool.... the artist. You talk about the equipment that we have, how much it has advanced. Then you say that very few people are doing anything of note with it (which may be true). If you're interested in preserving the art, hold a webinar of the things you liked to do with a certain piece of music or what you find sets the mood of a show in progress. Obviously the audience is an integral part of how the show progresses but you have to start somewhere. If you're not interested, then oh well but one of my favorite sigs on this forum reads "Information not shared is information lost forever".

[Bradfo69]

I'm following this and looking for clarification to this statement -

because the #1 best SECRET was right out there in front of everybody, and almost nobody thought it was important - they still don't think it's important - so anybody who gets that little SECRET has a leg up over the long run when measured against any scale except hype.

You stated in the subsequent post, if I'm reading it correctly, there are no secrets and that "Anything we want to know, you'll answer." So, what is it you were referring to by definition as the #1 best kept secret?

I'm sure it has to do more with the the art aspect and certainly not the equipment aspect. But, I'd like to hear it.

[flecom]

Do "Linux guys" put up with "I deserve to be spoon fed" self righteousness? Really?

what exactly am I asking to get "spoon fed"? linux is open source, if I want to know how it works I can go look, and figure it out, because there is a wealth of information online that people have SHARED to help other people figure it out and be able to CONTRIBUTE and progress the whole project forward... at no point in recent history did an idea just come out of thin air... everything is a PROGRESSION... so keeping things secret ensures the death of the progression of that idea

Just for the record Laser Images' 1st computer was a 6 board wire wrapped Master's Thesis project. It had an 8 bit 6502 microprocessor. It had a really primitive implimentation of Basic. This was all before the original Apple came out. Long before the the first IBM PC. All of our hardware was hand built. None of it is in any way compatible with anything you've got today. YES - I'm a Dinosaur. I've got nothing you can just dust off and use. The original Laserium show was done with non feedback scanners that defined the word slow! The 2nd show used G-124's which were also non feedback and only marginally faster. Every single one of you has more horsepower than we did at your disposal today. It's never been about the f**king hardware, and the software from my era was all written in assembly and fit on a 2kbyte eprom - So I doubt any of you would be all that impressed with the "source code" either. I'd have to find an eprom burner that could read it - and I doubt anyone who isn't a dinosar has a 6502 to run it on - and since everthing was done with non feedback scanners it would look like shit on your systems in any case! I do think that some of the discrete electronics were cool, but a lot of the components just aren't available any more, and the best bits have been outted in any case.

So the simple truth is you're crying for the moon...

who says nobody would be interested? all sorts of old obsolete things have lead to new shiny things... the fact that you guys could accomplish so much with so little speaks volumes, nobody is denying you that... but why not share the source/schematics for that? I can download the schematics for the original IBM PC and Apple Macintosh, pretty sure they have a lot more to protect... sure it might not make a difference but who cares? knowledge shared can help someone in some way you might never have thought of... hell isn't LSX based off a laser software package that was all but abandoned before it became LSX?

"Information not shared is information lost forever".

this x1000000

[laserist]

Language can be used to communicate concrete ideas. Programming languages, for example, are really just about concrete ideas. But language can also present abstract ideas. Poetry is sometimes just about word play, but sometimes it speaks to the abstract, to your emotions, to your soul. Language can be used in much more subtile ways than just communicating the concrete ideas some spend their days trudging through. It can be used to get some readers to challenge their assumptions. Sadly some will just give up. But I wasn't really ever going to reach those readers anyway.

You obviously think there's a paradox in my use of the word "secret". There is - and that's a clue - there's a conclusion left for the reader - that there really isn't a secret at all. The secret isn't a secret - you just have to open your eyes and oh by the way THINK!

Ivan Dryer wasn't born with some innate understanding of an art form that didn't exist yet. He looked at some things at a laser demonstration and said, YES! I can do something wonderful with THIS! - delighted pause - big breath - I just don't know what yet... He was an aspiring filmmaker, so he knew a thing or two about pacing and could at least spell choreography. In his minds eye he saw Laser Shows in Planetariums filling the seats. Then he spent years working to make Art from that expensive box of light.

Nothing that's ever been done with laser shows was handed down from upon high. Everything was an invention on the level of - what would happen if I stick this in the beam? Yes, people in the past have tried the hold these things as secrets, but not because they were hard - because they were easy.

In my opinion, I've said tons about what we did and how we did it over the years. Perhaps my use of language is just too esoteric, or perhaps it's something else. See what I did there? I left it for the reader to figure out...

I'm following this and looking for clarification to this statement -

because the #1 best SECRET was right out there in front of everybody, and almost nobody thought it was important - they still don't think it's important - so anybody who gets that little SECRET has a leg up over the long run when measured against any scale except hype.

You stated in the subsequent post, if I'm reading it correctly, there are no secrets and that "Anything we want to know, you'll answer." So, what is it you were referring to by definition as the #1 best kept secret?

I'm sure it has to do more with the the art aspect and certainly not the equipment aspect. But, I'd like to hear it.

[JohnYayas]

It's perfectly natural to not want to give up what you worked hard for. I don't see the big deal in telling secrets that hardly anyone cares about but if it is something that meant something to you at one time I can see why a person wouldn't want to let it go. And besides, it isn't like a person (at least a person with the required technical skills and knowledge) couldn't figure it out on there own if they tried. It's like my software... if I spend a lot of time working on it I'm not just going to make it open source when I feel that it doesn't do much for me anymore. If someone wants to do what I did they can figure it out and spend the time to write it themselves. A lot of people don't feel like making a career out of something and working hard to make progress just so that they can give it all away for free to people down the road who are too lazy or don't have the ambition or skill to actually figure it out themselves.

At the same time, if a person doesn't want to share, then just shut the heck up and go away. Don't stand around saying "I know how to do that but I am not telling you because you are not worthy". That's just being a jerk.

[Bradfo69]

Thank you.

15151515

[ekeefe]

Hello,

Even the most talented artist, can do nothing without the tools of their medium.

Give someone a canvas, some paint and a brush, and a painter may emerge. That painter may be great or awful. Either way, it is still art. With some creativity, they may be able to get by with just the paint and a random surface.

Like a father/son or master/apprentice relationship, show the new laserist the way it was done so they can move it forward. Why should every new laserist need to figure out that passing a laser through a "shower door" can look awesome?

Sharing an old drawing, schematic or thought doesn't diminish the value of the information. At the very least, the knowledge gained could be interesting, enlightening or enjoyable. At best, a new "Old way" may emerge.

Even something as simple as a "shower door" was made more interesting by rotating it. It could be made more interesting by rocking it slowly back and forth about it's vertical axis at the same time. How about altering the angle of the the two axis rig I just mentioned to change the refractive index. None of these ideas would emerge if the original "shower door" wasn't known. I didn't figure out how "shower door" lumia worked, I read about it. Maybe the concept would have come to me eventually, but by someone sharing it I was able to expand upon it.

Maybe a wire-wrapped 6502 control board wouldn't be that useful today. I'm sure the entire thing could be run out of a single microcontroller with a bit of analog electronics. I would still love to see schematics or documentation for it. Even just pictures of the boards themselves would be awesome.

Mapping points by hand or with a scratch built "digitizer" may have been the way it was done, but now there is great software to do that. The new software doesn't diminish the old way, it makes it more efficient.

I don't think people are looking to be spoon fed, I think people would just like to understand the concept of the spoon itself.

A good father hopes his children surpass him in knowledge and success. I hurts when you see that point approach and finally overtake you, but it can be joyful to see what emerges in the future from the wisdom you have shared.

Not everyone will be an artist, but at least share the old "paints and brushes".

ED

[absolom7691]

Hello,

Even the most talented artist, can do nothing without the tools of their medium.

Give someone a canvas, some paint and a brush, and a painter may emerge. That painter may be great or awful. Either way, it is still art. With some creativity, they may be able to get by with just the paint and a random surface.

Like a father/son or master/apprentice relationship, show the new laserist the way it was done so they can move it forward. Why should every new laserist need to figure out that passing a laser through a "shower door" can look awesome?

Sharing an old drawing, schematic or thought doesn't diminish the value of the information. At the very least, the knowledge gained could be interesting, enlightening or enjoyable. At best, a new "Old way" may emerge.

Even something as simple as a "shower door" was made more interesting by rotating it. It could be made more interesting by rocking it slowly back and forth about it's vertical axis at the same time. How about altering the angle of the the two axis rig I just mentioned to change the refractive index. None of these ideas would emerge if the original "shower door" wasn't known. I didn't figure out how "shower door" lumia worked, I read about it. Maybe the concept would have come to me eventually, but by someone sharing it I was able to expand upon it.

Maybe a wire-wrapped 6502 control board wouldn't be that useful today. I'm sure the entire thing could be run out of a single microcontroller with a bit of analog electronics. I would still love to see schematics or documentation for it. Even just pictures of the boards themselves would be awesome.

Mapping points by hand or with a scratch built "digitizer" may have been the way it was done, but now there is great software to do that. The new software doesn't diminish the old way, it makes it more efficient.

I don't think people are looking to be spoon fed, I think people would just like to understand the concept of the spoon itself.

A good father hopes his children surpass him in knowledge and success. I hurts when you see that point approach and finally overtake you, but it can be joyful to see what emerges in the future from the wisdom you have shared.

Not everyone will be an artist, but at least share the old "paints and brushes".

ED

Jesus, that was perfect. I was trying to think of several different ways to express what you wrote here and you nailed it!

[planters]

At the same time, if a person doesn't want to share, then just shut the heck up and go away. Don't stand around saying "I know how to do that but I am not telling you because you are not worthy". That's just being a jerk.

I agree. There is no obligation to divulge information, but suggesting that you could and then...no "its obvious" or "achievable" is kind of a put down. Passing along useful ideas and seeing them implemented is fun and an ego boost as well, yet if the idea is so valuable, then sell it or license it, but don't bury it. Maybe a one to one conversation, off line would be a good way to go. I've had dozens of these with satisfying results. It builds trust.

The problem I see as I read through these posts is that I'm am beginning to doubt the existence of this wealth of knowledge. No, I don't mean that there aren't some good ideas that might be discussed, but the magnitude of the value of these might be less impressive than is imagined. I'm not sure about this, I do not have any evidence, but I'm beginning to have these doubts and I can certainly understand flecom's frustration.